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How would YOU nerf the Mobula?

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Dementio:
The Mobula's acceleration is 4.25m/s². Goldfish 3.50, Junker 4.3, Squid 6.66 an Spire 4.5. A lot of ships that do get behind the Mobula, have enough speed to counter the Mobula's attempt to back up. The Goldfish may not have the speed, but it does have the Hwacha to reduce the speed to 0 or a Carronade to reduce the gun arcs to 0.

Vertical acceleration doesn't mean an enemy is not behind you anymore. I have tried a lot of stuff against a lot of Squids that got behind me, trust me on that one, they glue to me like my own face. Even when a Goldfish doesn't have the base acceleration to keep up with the Mobula backing up, it often has buffed engines, which the Mobula cannot afford and even without that, it does have the top speed, which it will reach shortly. The vertical acceleration only saves me, because said Squids are so close, even a Pyramidion could dodge a bunch of those Banshees with one Hydrogen. Trust me on that one too, but a little less, I dodged a Mobula's Artemis and Mortar shots with a Pyramidion. If other ships get changes on vertical acceleration for more diversity, you would have your vertical acceleration nerf in a different suit.

On the balloon blocking thing I mostly agree with you. But then again, this mostly applies to when using a Gatling after the Mobula has already build up vertical distance and when said Gatling tries to shoot at 100m from the worst possible angle so the spread will either miss the ship compltely or hit only the balloon. Balloon blocking Hades in a Mobula I found to be very frustrating, the AoE still hits the armor and then now even the balloon engineer has to leave the gun to fix something.

Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---You do realize that the mobula can back up almost as quickly as some ships can go forward right?

--- End quote ---
After accounting for the need to turn slightly sideways to maintain equal numbers of guns a junker advances slower than the mobula can retreat.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---TL;DR reduce both the vertical acceleration and speed. The Mobula has alot of inherent advantages. It doesn't need the vertical mobility it has.

--- End quote ---

Along those lines, swapping the top speeds of the mobula and junker would add another way to try counter it in a similar manner to the squid.

BlackenedPies:
Buffing other things to nerf the mobula is too complicated and will have side effects. Daniel you say the mob's weaknesses are so insanely large but the truth is the other ships have more/worse weaknesses and the mobula is the least vulnerable ship in the game. When I had my mobula epiphany a year ago I suddenly wasn't scared of anything except multiple fire (hades-banshees). The mob is simply the strongest ship in the game and now more players are realizing it

(insert long paragraph about turning, damage, repairs etc)

Unless other ships need buffs it's too complicated to buff them according to the mobula. Take junker for example. Junker can't fight mob at range because it's too vulnerable to disable. I can't think of a reasonable buff that would let junker fight mob at range. Junker can fight mobs up close by burning in low. This can be used to great effect but if the mob has a single carro then it's too hard for the junker. Buffing junker will only make it better at brawling with mob and against everything the junker is already good at. It won't make nearly as much difference to fighting a mob as fighting other ships. Unnecessary consequences are caused

One more example: fish. I've always said mobs are good against fish and this was as true before the carro nerf after hwatcha buff. For me a hwatcha fish stands no chance against a ranged or brawl mob and the only thing a blenderfish can do is ram into something hard. Before the mob is popped they hydro, then drogue, then immediately hydro. Without terrain a fish can't fight a mob. How do you buff fish to balance mob? Buffing the fish will only make it better against ships it's already good against, and buffing heavy guns will only make them better against ships they're already good against!

Buffs to nerf the mobula doesn't make sense. If a ship needs a buff, buff it. If a ship needs a nerf then the answer isn't to buff everything else. The mob has no natural weakness greater than other ships and it has the most advantages over other ships. If you're gonna buff things to nerf the mob then what will you buff and how will it not adversely effect others?

HelFyre:

--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on March 17, 2016, 10:54:52 am --- For me a hwatcha fish stands no chance against a ranged or brawl mob

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This is the only part of your post that I don't entirely agree on.. hwachafish can fight fairly well (approach as you would with a junker, potentially weakens their position vs your ally, obvious advantage when directly above mobula, increased if their mobility is reduced), though the mobula can make slight specialisations to increase its survivability.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm --- You shouldn't be turning much in a close range engagement, mobulas simply don't need to.


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Mobulas do need to turn at close range, that's part of their weakness at close range. You can see this by some quick analysis on the relevant gun arcs and the distance between the guns, if not by experience. Note the high top speed and slow angular acceleration, which means..

Mean Machine:

--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---
You do realize that the mobula can back up almost as quickly as some ships can go forward right?

--- End quote ---

Did you make that up? Mobulas' top speed is among the worst in the game (only junker is slower) and acceleration is not THAT important, because you never run from enemy without using kerosine or moonshine, so since every pilot uses those it's easy to hit top speed where mobula will start losing against pretty much every ship, not to mention that if mobula tries to run in anything but open space, it can get stuck or bump the terrain a lot easier and it can't get around cover as easy as others ships can, since it has terrible turning speed. Acceleration only comes into play in close range engagement and even there it only really helps if you see enemy coming. If they don't approach you head on, as they shouldn't, then acceleration or top speed won't help you much. There is a reason why every ship in game dodges vertically mostly. Only scenario where top speed and acceleration really helps usually is when you start running from fight (like when your ally dies and you decide to disengage), in which mobula is terrible and usually can't escape this way. So it's actually other ships who benefit from acceleration and top speed more.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---Oh, and once you do close, the vertical acceleration and speed of the mobula let it run circles around any other ship in the game.

--- End quote ---

You can't dodge forever. You can hydro, but so can enemy, the difference is that after that hydro, you can lower altitude faster than other ships and that's only dodge you will usually get before you damage your balloon. If you do the opposite and first dodge down with stamina for example, enemy can still follow you down, especially with healthy, buffed balloon and stamina, after that you can hydro and they can hydro as well. It's just buying time essentially. Sometimes it will save your life, but not always, especially if you get flanked and enemy hurt your balloon in the process. That's all part of turning their strenghts against them. You have plenty of ways to hurt their balloon and thus making them pretty much stuck and unable to properly dodge. Carronade can still do the job, no matter how people cry about it (even though i very much agree it didn't need that nerf). You don't actually have to kill balloon, which you can easily do with lochnagar if you want, but you just have to heavily damage it and they won't be able to dodge.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---Squid included.

--- End quote ---
Squid can't keep up? Please, did you even watch any squids in competitive? I've seen plenty dancing with mob and killing them sooner or later.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---You shouldn't be turning much in a close range engagement, mobulas simply don't need to.

--- End quote ---
Haha, can you please read and think about what you just said?


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---Hull isn't that important in a mob actually, the balloon is life tho. Speaking of which:


--- End quote ---

Balloon is life? Well, yes it's pretty much impossible to miss it with any gun, hurt it and there won't be so much life anymore, simple yeah?
Hull might not be top priority on mobula indeed, but if your armor is down, you're very susceptible to get insta killed by rams, heavy flaks, or even suiciding if you dodge into the terrain. Like I already said, you can't dodge forever and if your balloon is not healthy it's even harder to succesfully dodge.
While hull is slim, balloon is huge. Which means once it's broken it's easy to land all the shots that will go straight to the hull. But you already know that.


--- Quote from: nhbearit on March 16, 2016, 08:15:58 pm ---TL;DR reduce both the vertical acceleration and speed. The Mobula has alot of inherent advantages. It doesn't need the vertical mobility it has.

--- End quote ---

Take that away and it's not mobula anymore, it's a fat spire. That's like suggesting to take two engines away from squid or one side of guns from junker. Vertical mobility is the most defining "characteristic" of mobula. Why would you want to take away what makes ships unique? And of course it needs that speed. it doesn't have horizontal speed like I already mentioned above, it's clumsy at moving around terrain, it has terrible turning speed, so what's left? Yeah, that's right, vertical mobility.


I very much agree with Daniel that mobula is most balanced ship in the game. It has unique design, it has strenghts and weaknesses, it provides many different possible builds, crew combos and strategies. That for me means it's well balanced. If a ship is only useful with one build or only in one situation or against one type of enemy, then that is IMO not balanced and it's boring and something needs to be done with that ship. Everyone should strive to make muse buff other ships so they are more like mobula, diverse and provide more possible and effective builds and roles that ship can do.

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