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How would YOU nerf the Mobula?

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Richard LeMoon:
Heavy Clip can not be restored until a falloff damage is introduced. In my mind, falloff damage would solve a ton of balance problems. All guns could have their ranges and velocities increased and recoil decreased. Heavy clip could be reverted to its laser missile glory. Guns that are OP at all ranges could be nudged [NUDGED MUSE NUDGED!] back at further ranges without just making them hard to hit with (no fun). Artemis, Manticore, and Hades in particular. Maybe Mercury. Gatling for sure (after it is given a couple hundred more meters of range and less jitter). This would nerf the Mobula in a meaningful way without taking away its 'gun platform' aspect.

 
As far as a direct nerf to the Mobula, I would give it two more engines on the top deck behind the wing guns without changing the turning ability. These engines would obviously be harder to keep well repaired while still keeping all guns in arc. This would give it the same problems as the Squid. Then reduce the vertical speed somewhat.

Mean Machine:

--- Quote from: MightyKeb on March 16, 2016, 06:04:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: Mean Machine on March 16, 2016, 05:27:20 pm ---You say it's difficult to approach them. Well of course, as it should be. Sniper ship of any kind should be difficult to approach with close range ships. If you're in open map you will have hard time approaching any sniping ship, not just mobula.

--- End quote ---

Actually, this is untrue. When you charge a mobula, the Mobula backs away until it disables and strips you enough that you have to retreat. When you do decide to retreat and/or take cover before you approach, the mob can always move in and finish you off. This is not a trait of every sniper ship, junker is easier to charge because they cant control distance like the mob, galleon is easier to disable on approach, and spire is just easier to straight up kill and disable on approach. It's just a matter of fact that Mobula is the best ship to abuse Hades/Arts with, and this forum is looking for a way to reduce it's effectiveness without reducing Mobula's effectiveness in general so that other builds can be run, and without nerfing the guns so other ships who can't abuse the combination as effectively can still somewhat use them.

--- End quote ---

Why would you charge sniping ship in the first place if they see you coming? Like I said, if they see you coming, it doesn't matter if it's mobula or galleon or even spire, you won't reach that ship safely if it's sniper ship vs close range ship. It shouldn't, otherwise that galleon or spire is doing extremely poor job. In close range maps, it's not hard to approach mobula and you should have not hard time flanking them if you get good positions and coordination. If you flank mobula in close range situation it can only dodge vertically and it can't do it forever of course. If you happen to have carronade you will even strip them of that dodge. Which leaves them with dodging horizontally. How many ships can successfully dodge horizontally? None, it rarely works if enemy gets good engagement. Every ship in the game tries to dodge vertically for the most part, except maybe for galleon because it would not help much. Dodging horizontally in close range maps is mostly not very effective at all anyway. In open maps you can "dodge" by reversing and buy quite some time with that, because you have a lot of space behind you, in close range maps it won't help you that much, because if it's close range engagement, it means the enemy ship is already close to you and they are faster than you can reverse.

Besides, you can't expect to approach mobula from their front side and expect to kill them easily. Of course they will have a good chance to kill or disable you, It's a freaking killing machine with five front guns. You approach them from flank or behind and the results are a lot different. Old pyra certainly didn't have any problem with annihilating ships that were trying to dodge horizontally and it only needed that little bit of speed and hull that now it doesn't have. It was not as sturdy and fast as goldfish or tanky as squid, but it still didn't have problem killing mob that tried to run from it. I think everyone can realize that whatever the range, you don't want to approach mobula with their front side facing you. Just like you won't approach galleon with their broadside facing you and expect to have a good day. Also another point about mobula being able to reverse while junker and galleons can't.... Galleons and junkers are a lot more resistent to flanking than mobula, since they have side guns and can easily turn and shoot wherever the enemy ship is coming from, while mobula will take a while to turn. That is a very important and good advantage in close range maps for galleon and junker.
 
I find it funny that we have mobula for such a long time now and builds haven't change all that much and no one seemed to be bothered by mob before. But recently a lot of people started flying mobula, so BOOM, It's OP now all of sudden :)

Well guys, after mobula gets nerfed, guess what will happen. Yeah, another ship will take it's place and will be "the best ship in the game". So what we accomplish? Nothing, we enter neverending circle of nerfing, oops "balancing" which consume fun out of game patch after patch. Like I said already, just because it works well, doesn't mean it's op. In every game, let's take fps for example because it's easy one, you will find the most popular and most used weapon. Does that necessary mean it's op? No, not always, it can mean that people found a weapon that is overall good and easy to use and they use it, because you know, a lot of people today play to win. They will use a weapon that they might not actually like the most, but they really want to win.

So again, I'm all for nerfing mob by buffing other ships or weapons like carronade, not by directly nerfing the ship. Not just mobula. I'm talking about mobula here of course because the topic is about mobula, if you wanted to nerf spire for example I would defend spire. Buff other ships.

Dementio:
It is not hard to charge a Mobula. If you charge directly at them, then of course you won't get very far.

I like how Guras doesn't even try to hide his bias against Mobula. I will let the fact that he tries to compare it to what is said to be the weakest ship in the game, slide.

It is not invulnerable to disable, from the five guns it has, you only need to destroy three or even less if anything already damaged its armor or balloon. It depends on the skill of your gunner to decide what guns he should destroy. Destroying the engines when you behind it is also not that hard.
The wings and tail are armor, so if you engage it from something that is not the front, not even I have trouble breaking that armor.
The Mobula can't repair engines as reliable as most ships, because you need all three or at least two crewmembers to do it.
It cannot tank, if the armor is down it will be down for very long.
It is extremely vulnerable to focus fire, as that will often mean a lot of damage on armor and balloon, because of the AoE of Hades and Banshees, and without the balloon it has nothing going for it.
Also, it's balloon and hull are so close together, AoE will most likely always hit both. Hades and Banshee damaging balloon when hitting hull, explosive guns continuing to damage the hull when hitting the balloon.
It cannot do anything about something behind it.
It is so slow, it literally cannot escape. Going up and down is buying time, not an escape.
Paired with horrendous turning acceleration, it cannot chase and must rely on magical Artemis disables on enemy engines, if they are not behind cover already. The good thing about that, I have to admit, is that it makes Phoenix Claw completely obsolete so there is less damage on the engines. Some people have yet to think about that.
Bad turning and lack of engineer coorperation also makes it extremely vulnerable to mines.

About the buff thing, I want to say that you phrased that incorrectly and even then it isn't something that only goes for the Mobula. Ships become better with buff, the Mobula included. They are all already strong, so are the guns, buffs only make sure you need a little bit less of something to do whatever you want to do. Increasing speed, potential dps and overall survivability. The Mobula is actually the only ship left out of that, as most of the time it is the only ship without buff on anything. Some people do run a third engineer to at least buff the Hades/Gatling and for a little bit before combat begins the engines, but more often than not it is the only ship that doesn't allow people to make it better. The fact that its vertical mobility is so strong does counter the lack of buff rather well, but then again, the engines are so bad that even with buff it may still be worse than most other ships without. That also seems to be a fitting explanation why there is so much Mallet/Spanner on the Mobula balloon, without that, what has it going for it? And buffs on the armor are a no-go, as optimal repairs and fire management are the only real ways to go for.

Dementio:
Double post, but you know how it is.

The more I actually think about it, the more I see the Mobula as the most balanced (= Mobula OP, obviously). It's weaknesses are so insanely large, that it shifts the meta mindset about the game and has to be approached differently, from enemy ship as well as from when you are piloting and crewing it yourself. Has anybody actually thought about how it's turning acceleration is worse than even the Galleon's, yet people can fly this ship successfully without the assistance of buff? Imagine a lack of buff or phoenix claw on any other ship, except maybe the Squid with the best horizontal mobility, that would be blasphemy! Five guns or not, they are forward facing. The Goldfish, Spire and Pyramidion all have forward facing guns as well and can buff their armor and theoretically use their much higher in comparision speed to fly past their enemy, if they needed to dodge for a second. Yet, these ships still use the claw.

The one thing that saves it's lack of turning might just be the fact that the guns arcs are tilted. turning all the guns straight forward doesn't sound like a bad idea after all. But that will also be another buff to the Squid and Hwacha, and who doesn't want that.

There recently has been a discussion about the Mobula on some twitch chat, in somebody mentioned that the Mobula is always the primary target. I agree on that, but it can't be about the guns, a lot of ships can do trifecta and on some ships it's even stronger (Galleon with OP Lumberjack and instant kill Flak). And some guns are even more dangerous as they do their job much quicker and more effectively than Hades/double Artemis, which are Hwacha, Heavy Carronade and Gat/Mortar. I don't think I responded to that at all back then, but now I would say, it is the primary target, because in focus fire, it dies the quickest. Sure, Hydrogen once is nice, but how often can the Mobula use hydrogen before the balloon is dead or until it and its enemies are on max altitude? Also, if there is focus fire and the Mobula uses hydrogen or chute vent to dodge, the enemy will chase it vertically, which means the Mobula's ally will have to follow the enemy vertically as well, wether that works out for said ally depends on the situation.

As the Mobula is a ship that reacts slowly, it cannot afford to start regreting choices, once it commits to a choice, it has commited, there is no turning back. The one strength it has, the vertical mobility, is the one thing that keeps it in the air, literally too! With the lack of use for the Phoenix Claw, it can indirectly buff that strength with getting two vertical mobility tools or just one with the addition of Drouge Chute. The gravity thing that once was may make the Mobula more rammable against Blenderfish, but allows it to shoot the enemy Lumberjack for even longer.

I want that all the other ships follow the example of the Mobula and get changed appropriately. More diversity in vertical and forward/backwards accelerations as well as top speeds would be a start. Buff ships in ways that they can afford to not take something and still be a good pick.

nhbearit:
Lol

You do realize that the mobula can back up almost as quickly as some ships can go forward right?

Oh, and once you do close, the vertical acceleration and speed of the mobula let it run circles around any other ship in the game. Squid included. You shouldn't be turning much in a close range engagement, mobulas simply don't need to.

Hull isn't that important in a mob actually, the balloon is life tho. Speaking of which:

Balloon Blocking!

The mobula is the only ship in the game that can effectively balloon block AND fire all guns at the same time. That I don't like.

TL;DR reduce both the vertical acceleration and speed. The Mobula has alot of inherent advantages. It doesn't need the vertical mobility it has.

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