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How would YOU nerf the Mobula?

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MightyKeb:
Banshee is already borderline more useful than the flamethrower at setting fires, buffing the explosive damage instead would make it contest the Mortar, and mortar is already an insanely powerful option and would be overpowered if not for it's arc and range related weaknesses. I'd be down with an accuracy buff though, make it useful mid-long range. A banshee does 400 balloon damage per clip excluding fire stacks (Which is what you get when the enemy's balloon is chemmed). Stack 3 of them and you get a whopping 1200 damage, that'll leave the enemy balloon at 250 HP if the balloon is malleted during the proccess, this is excluding the fire stack attribute of banshee. This is even excluding buffed greased triple banshee (1498.8 damage to balloon per clip!)

 This means 3 banshees combined is effectively the closest you can get to a Lumberjack with light guns. Buffing the accuracy of banshee's accuracy would buff some of the builds that heavily rely on it for long range aswell as opening up a new option for the current long range meta.


Otherwise, I'd just lean towards nerfing the Mobula's hull to 550. I feel that having a moderately durable armor/balloon is very important for mobula and allows the Do I repair - Do I shoot decision making mechanic to be smooth on mobula. Overnerfing the armor would ruin it as the hull engi has to run back to the component every 2 seconds everytime something sneezes on it, which prevents it from getting the trifectas it needs unless the engagement is perfect. Why bring a mobula at all then? I would not nerf it's armor below 500. It's also going to make it easier to tank with if you lower the hull too much, same with making it too hard to tank with higher than 600 armor due to the increased rebuild time but being able to win against almost anything so long as you dont get a particularly bad engagement.

On the other hand, 550 hull value is a very important and understated threshold in hull values. One burst artemis clip does 550 damage, one unbuffed clip of greased banshee does 540 damage. Kill squids will one clip it, other meta mobs will most likely have enough shots to disable it's guns and melt it's hull at the same time, Lumber Flak galleons and other heavy flak ships will insta kill it, double lumber galleon will chip damage it so hard it'll be at 50% after the first armor break, and while the Mobula itself is weak to rams at the moment, it will be weak to gentle breeze rams now, which I think is fair considering that you'll be so disabled that'll be the best you can do if you head on a mob. We already have a glass cannon that tanks with low armor (Spire), so might aswell make something on the opposite end of the spectrum. Again, this breaks the threshold of "Too much armor", which means it can't actually tank well when it's armor goes down because now it's comparatively harder for an engi to get the armor back in time before all it's hull health is depleted, but unlike a straight buff to the armor that doesnt mean it'll win every engage so long as the armor's up, it's still the same mob. Just relies solely on pilot dodging now, which means more balloon/engine tool burning, and burning these tools earlier. And if there's anything I know about mobula verticals, it's that it's not an infinite advantage - It's gone as soon as you burn the balloon. So overall, not only does this change make it fragile in it's originally intended way, but forces the mobula to adapt to the change by being more cautious in times of armor break, thus putting more pressure on itself to expend resources with which it'll hamper it's ability to get back into the fight with.

GurasOguras:
The amount of perks you gain by taking mobula is too much as for me:

+ Small hull size compared to balloon (Difficult to hit, just like junker. Additionally it's vertical movement will make you hit gatling shots very difficult in comparison to other ships)
+ Range control ability (forward facing guns can shoot while you change your distance to target)
+ Great dodge potential (vertical mobility)
+ Great vertical movement (buffed balloon with stamina equals free hydrogen)
+ Quadfecta is possible
+ Decent durability (can't say the same about pyramidion which is supposed to be front line fighter and mobula should be theoretically glass cannon)
+ 2 secondary guns on wings (makes it possible to use at different range)
+ Components spread across the entire ship makes it invulnerable to heavy disables (no matter direction. even if hwacha attacking from rear the best outcome is to disable only one side of the ship. If you wanna do something serious to it you need very good gunner while against other ships pretty average will be more than enough)
+ Wide ship (Usually ramming mobula from front will leave you very exposed and will actually only help mobula)
+ Ship doesn't even require buffs to be strong, and most of the times even in competitive matches it isn't buffed at all.

Let's compare it to Pyramidion now:

+ Always 2 guns shooting target no matter disabling potential (but requires to be in range of said guns, and disables are still effective from rear or sides)
~ Always someone has time to repair engines (but it means dualfecta for most of the times)
~ Average range control (you still have only 2 guns on front so you have to chose if you wanna be artillery or brawler)

Those last two have their drawbacks, while on mobula it's pure benefit. That's all I can think of that will benefit me from taking pyramidion. Literally all I can think of.
Is there anyone who still wants to argue that Mobula isn't OP? It was like this since the beginning, but back then at least carronades worked.


How I would nerf it? By buffing carronade back again, or move hull to back of the ship where baloon is. The only mobula that we have problem with is that meta cancer, because it's difficult to approach. Brawlmobs are fine, I think.

Mean Machine:

--- Quote from: GurasOguras on March 16, 2016, 04:32:53 pm ---The amount of perks you gain by taking mobula is too much as for me:

+ Small hull size compared to balloon (Difficult to hit, just like junker. Additionally it's vertical movement will make you hit gatling shots very difficult in comparison to other ships)
+ Range control ability (forward facing guns can shoot while you change your distance to target)
+ Great dodge potential (vertical mobility)
+ Great vertical movement (buffed balloon with stamina equals free hydrogen)
+ Quadfecta is possible
+ Decent durability (can't say the same about pyramidion which is supposed to be front line fighter and mobula should be theoretically glass cannon)
+ 2 secondary guns on wings (makes it possible to use at different range)
+ Components spread across the entire ship makes it invulnerable to heavy disables (no matter direction. even if hwacha attacking from rear the best outcome is to disable only one side of the ship. If you wanna do something serious to it you need very good gunner while against other ships pretty average will be more than enough)
+ Wide ship (Usually ramming mobula from front will leave you very exposed and will actually only help mobula)
+ Ship doesn't even require buffs to be strong, and most of the times even in competitive matches it isn't buffed at all.

Let's compare it to Pyramidion now:

+ Always 2 guns shooting target no matter disabling potential (but requires to be in range of said guns, and disables are still effective from rear or sides)
~ Always someone has time to repair engines (but it means dualfecta for most of the times)
~ Average range control (you still have only 2 guns on front so you have to chose if you wanna be artillery or brawler)

Those last two have their drawbacks, while on mobula it's pure benefit. That's all I can think of that will benefit me from taking pyramidion. Literally all I can think of.
Is there anyone who still wants to argue that Mobula isn't OP? It was like this since the beginning, but back then at least carronades worked.


How I would nerf it? By buffing carronade back again, or move hull to back of the ship where baloon is. The only mobula that we have problem with is that meta cancer, because it's difficult to approach. Brawlmobs are fine, I think.

--- End quote ---

I will argue :P Sorry Guras, but first you list all the "strengths" of mobula and then you say that "cancer mobula" is problem and brawlbula is fine. Does that list of "strenghts" not apply for all mobulas, just for meta? I mean, brawl mobula also benefits from slim hull, from great vertical mobility and so on. So, that's why I'm saying it's not so much of a problem with ship itself. It might seem so to a lot of people, but it's other ships that need buffing and maybe some weapons like you mentioned carronade. It's unreasonable to compare pyramidion to mobula in order to show how inferior pyra is, because pyramidion is pretty much inferior to any other ship in the game. It's similar with spire. You don't see spire in competitive not because there are mobulas there, but because spire is weak against most other ships as well or at least it's very risky pick and usually isn't worth the effort and doesn't seem to provide more benefit to the team than it's costing them.

I get a feeling that people are trying to nerf mobula only because they don't like meta mob and think it's too easy to play with and win with it. Well then nerf artemis if that's the problem. It's very powerful gun on every ship, not just mobula. It has good arcs, decent clip, fairly easy to shoot, has all ranges with no arming time, has good disable power and fair explosive damage, it combines well with most other weapons etc...

You say it's difficult to approach them. Well of course, as it should be. Sniper ship of any kind should be difficult to approach with close range ships. If you're in open map you will have hard time approaching any sniping ship, not just mobula. If you're in short range map with a lot of cover, you can approach it same as brawl mobula. Even easier than brawl mobula if you are not spotted. If you're thinking of sniper vs sniper then it is what it is, like I said, someone has to fill the role of being best sniper ship and it happens to be mobula. But if we're taking metamobula then even that is not true. For pure sniping galleon is probably good candidate to beat mobula. With lumberjack and mercury you can easily outrange those artemises. And even in max artemis range it's not very easy to disable components, so mob can have trouble disabling galleons' guns before galleons locks mobula down with lumberjack. If they land few lumberjack shots you can put mobula down enough (even if they have drogue chute) that they won't have artemises in arcs.

BlackenedPies:

--- Quote from: Mean Machine on March 16, 2016, 05:27:20 pm ---I get a feeling that people are trying to nerf mobula only because they don't like meta mob and think it's too easy to play with and win with it. Well then nerf artemis if that's the problem. It's very powerful gun on every ship, not just mobula. It has good arcs, decent clip, fairly easy to shoot, has all ranges with no arming time, has good disable power and fair explosive damage, it combines well with most other weapons etc...

--- End quote ---

People want to nerf the mobula because it's the best ship in the game. There's rarely a situation for me that I should bring another ship over a mobula for the easiest win. I don't bring other ships because they're better, I bring them to keep it interesting. And I never bring meta mob and rarely bring even one artemis

Keep in mind that artemis is the least potent explosive gun dealing only 62% of the hull dps of banshee. I don't bring artemis because they kill slowly and why disable them when you can kill them. The mobula is the best ship for this because it's resistant to being disabled and killed. For reference my two most common builds are buffed charged merc top with left lesmok flak gat, and right heavy clip flare banshee; buffed greased hades (I can preload lesmok), left greased banshee gat, right heatsink/burst/greased flame/flare flak. Both are kitted for max kill dps and make full use of the spanner mallet buff engi top

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: Mean Machine on March 16, 2016, 05:27:20 pm ---You say it's difficult to approach them. Well of course, as it should be. Sniper ship of any kind should be difficult to approach with close range ships. If you're in open map you will have hard time approaching any sniping ship, not just mobula.

--- End quote ---

Actually, this is untrue. When you charge a mobula, the Mobula backs away until it disables and strips you enough that you have to retreat. When you do decide to retreat and/or take cover before you approach, the mob can always move in and finish you off. This is not a trait of every sniper ship, junker is easier to charge because they cant control distance like the mob, galleon is easier to disable on approach, and spire is just easier to straight up kill and disable on approach. It's just a matter of fact that Mobula is the best ship to abuse Hades/Arts with, and this forum is looking for a way to reduce it's effectiveness without reducing Mobula's effectiveness in general so that other builds can be run, and without nerfing the guns so other ships who can't abuse the combination as effectively can still somewhat use them.

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