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Hwatcha suggestion

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MightyKeb:
I think a good solution would be to simply buff the Heavy Carronade back to it's original form, with or without the old Heavy Clip is up to debate. It used to be that Heavy Carro was amazing at balloon popping and DPS, whilst hwacha had okay DPS and disables, and it's effect became more useful the closer you got, which is why muse buffed the Hwacha's jitter in the first place after nerfing heavy clip, and while that was pointless, my point here is that now, the situation has turned upside down and Hwacha is the more powerful close range heavy weapon in comparison to H.Carro. Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.


What I'd propose then, is a collection of opinions that I've gathered from conversations with different vets. Revert every single nerf Heavy Carronade has recieved except the Heavy Clip nerf, return Hwacha it's old jitter, and remove the -25% clip size penalty from the Heavy Clip. I think the difference between old and current heavy clip here is that it takes a few more shots to do the same effect - but those few more shots just aren't there. You dont want to penalize players' ammo capacity just to tune their accuracy up a bit rather than making them shoot straight. And this way, Hwacha would still have a way to coexist with other guns midrange too - but without the annoyingly wide Burst rounds range, whilst Heavy Carronade could exist as a DPS and balloon popper aswell, but without the old 400m balloon pops unless you're using Loch, which is always a fair tradeoff.

BlackenedPies:
@Guras
The only thing too powerful with gunner stamina on hwatcha is the down arc. A slower reload would be a general nerf and I don't think it would address the problem. Using all of your gunner stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds, which is significant but only for the first reload. After that you won't be able to reduce a reload by nearly as much with stamina returning to full only after waiting a minute or destroying 12 components.

Hwatcha has 20 degree vertical arcs and with stamina is increased to 28. The only problem I see is the down arc which makes it difficult to escape. Reducing the down arc to 15 would make the stamina arc 21 degrees. I don't think this would be too strong a nerf.
I don't agree that "Currently there is no way Carrofish can win with Hwachafish in 1v1".

@Keb
The old heavy carronade down arc was OP. Besides the up arc and high jitter the Hcarro is pretty balanced. I don't think buffing both the hwatcha and hcarro will help balance. Hwatcha needs some nerf and the hcarro can be tweaked. I wasn't a fan of the high jitter because it mostly only effects galleon where an engi is using charged etc, but there have been many times I've been shot with heavy clip and not been popped in one clip due to the high jitter.

Heavy clip should be changed but I'm not convinced on having no penalties for it. Instead I'd prefer a small penalty such as -10% ROF. It would still have use in all the guns and I don't think a small ROF penalty would hurt too much. I'm specifically thinking of the gat and banshee. I'm not completely sure but I'd like to see the clip penalty removed and replaced with another small penalty.

@Jedi
Double hwatcha galleon is powerful on KOTH and especially desert scrap. To fight them you need to coordinate with an ally that can 1v1 a galleon. You should both engage at the same time and at different but not opposite locations. You don't want your ally coming in at the opposite side of the map because then both galleons can shoot both of you. You have plenty of time so don't engage until both you and ally are ready.

I'd bring a spire, mobula, or even pyra. For spire I like a top artemis-flare/flak and bottom burst hwatcha-lesmok gat. The combo of artemis and buffed burst hwatcha can disable a galleon from much farther than they can disable you. Spires are easy to repair and incredibly maneuverable so you can avoid fire when you need to. I recommend two buff hammers and a spanner mallet buff so you can quickly buff the bottom deck and have a mallet on balloon. Mobula is a great option because they're maneuverable and somewhat resistant to hwatchas. An excellent way to fight a galleon is to go low and draw them down then hydro up. Even with hydro the galleon will have a ton of downward momentum which gives you time. Pyra is very risky but rewarding when you pull it off. Two buff hammers and moonshine is absolutely essential. You can use the same tactic as mobula by slipping through with your fast and small profile, and luring them down then hydro up. Buffed greased gat breaks buffed galleon armor in one clip and buffed greased mortar kills in 4 seconds.

This is all assuming you're only fighting one galleon because it's impossible to win against two. The performance of your ally is just as important as yours. The only way to fight double galleon is to isolate one and exploit their weaknesses.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on January 08, 2016, 03:23:48 pm ---@Keb
The old heavy carronade down arc was OP. Besides the up arc and high jitter the Hcarro is pretty balanced. I don't think buffing both the hwatcha and hcarro will help balance. Hwatcha needs some nerf and the hcarro can be tweaked. I wasn't a fan of the high jitter because it mostly only effects galleon where an engi is using charged etc, but there have been many times I've been shot with heavy clip and not been popped in one clip due to the high jitter.

Heavy clip should be changed but I'm not convinced on having no penalties for it. Instead I'd prefer a small penalty such as -10% ROF. It would still have use in all the guns and I don't think a small ROF penalty would hurt too much. I'm specifically thinking of the gat and banshee. I'm not completely sure but I'd like to see the clip penalty removed and replaced with another small penalty.

--- End quote ---

Oh, I almost forgot about the downward arcs. Although I think it'd be fine if you simply gave it back everything it once had except the downwards. And I think -10% ROF is a good medium between having no downsides and severe downsides, and it might actually help Heavy Clip do it's job a little better as you're not spraying and praying as much, but I don't think I have a say on that until I confirm that this is how the shooting mechanics work.

I've also never said anything about buffing the hwacha, I only suggested it's jitter to return to how it always was before the february patch.

Dementio:
I would like it, if the Hwacha would get a reduction in AoE, so Burst Rounds in medium range are less effective and have it make use of some projectile expansion to make long range-ing with the not so effective heavy clip, more effective. Or if it should be a purely close range oriented gun, then increasing the jitter back to its previous value works too, I guess.

Heavy Carronade is fine in my opinion, maybe a slight reduction in jitter wouldn't hurt.


--- Quote from: MightyKeb on January 08, 2016, 02:05:33 pm ---Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.

--- End quote ---

Heavy guns are not about the dps, they are about doing their job quicker than the light guns, which results in doing their job within one clip. The Heavy Carronade destroys a balloon in one clip, against a Pyramidion it is a bit troublesome to manage it, but that is one of two strengths that ship has so that's ok, and Hwacha can destroy all visible guns and engines, and some more close to those visible ones within one clip with ease in close range, even if it gets nerfed, because a nerf shouldn't stop a gun from doing what it is supposed to do.

The Heavy Carronade, even after the nerf, can single-handedly kill a ship and remove a ship from a fight with a single Lochnagar shot. Two Heavy Carronade on one side of a Galleon can destroy the enemy balloon and armor in mere seconds. I don't want to see more damage from that gun.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: Dementio on January 08, 2016, 05:20:31 pm ---I would like it, if the Hwacha would get a reduction in AoE, so Burst Rounds in medium range are less effective and have it make use of some projectile expansion to make long range-ing with the not so effective heavy clip, more effective. Or if it should be a purely close range oriented gun, then increasing the jitter back to its previous value works too, I guess.

Heavy Carronade is fine in my opinion, maybe a slight reduction in jitter wouldn't hurt.


--- Quote from: MightyKeb on January 08, 2016, 02:05:33 pm ---Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.

--- End quote ---

Heavy guns are not about the dps, they are about doing their job quicker than the light guns, which results in doing their job within one clip. The Heavy Carronade destroys a balloon in one clip, against a Pyramidion it is a bit troublesome to manage it, but that is one of two strengths that ship has so that's ok, and Hwacha can destroy all visible guns and engines, and some more close to those visible ones within one clip with ease in close range, even if it gets nerfed, because a nerf shouldn't stop a gun from doing what it is supposed to do.

The Heavy Carronade, even after the nerf, can single-handedly kill a ship and remove a ship from a fight with a single Lochnagar shot. Two Heavy Carronade on one side of a Galleon can destroy the enemy balloon and armor in mere seconds. I don't want to see more damage from that gun.

--- End quote ---

But doing a job with ease is the same as doing it quicker than the light guns, because you dont need as many conditions to do it. With the old hwacha you had to be closer than you were now to get the same effect you did today at midrange, now that you can do that at midrange, the conditions for doing it's job in one clip is much more forgiving and therefore can be used more effectively under pressure. Heavy Carronade on the other hand requires a gimmicky ammo to do the same thing it used to do. The difference is that Heavy Clip made it much easier to aim, rotate and allowed it to disable without having to commit everything to once shot. And in a world of no official piercing-heavy weapons, they need to be able to do atleast slightly relevant dps. It's odd that a Galleon, a ship with a broadside full of what is allegedly heavy firepower, is beaten in kill time by anything with a Gat-Mortar/Any explosive in the correct situation on it. I'd argue that Heavy guns retaining some sort of dps against either armor or hull is beneficial for the game. Fish cant use it as much because they're mainly about using it's disable aspect, Spire gets something to outdps mobulas with so that it can actually be called a glass cannon when there's a ship that can pull off every combo the Spire can save for the heavy guns, with much better survivability. And galleon, refer to what I said about gat mortar.

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