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"What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm

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Hunter.:
Does anyone know if Muse ever considered taking on some volunteers from top clans to discuss balance changes? It sounds like it would be a good idea - only issue I can see is that clan leaders would never agree on changes because the sniping teams would vote for buffs to range tactics and vice versa. Maybe take on someone who watches a lot of competitive and has been around for a long time. Just something I am throwing out there.

As for Pyra nerfs, I wasn't around in the closing months of the Pyra age however I showed Newbluud (a newer GOIO player) a series for the classic Sunday Rumble where Pyra would do stupid things with their mobility and we agreed the changes were warranted - however I also believe they were a little strong.

Personally, in the future I would like to see less flat nerfs, and more "buffing the counter to OP stuff" style of balancing, such as "Squid is strong, let's buff Galleon mobility a little", "Hwacha is strong, let's buff Artemis shatter damage a little".

Once again, just throwing this stuff out there - would love to hear some opinions.

-Anakin-:
"Make mines more powerful" - Clan Clan Representative, 2015

nanoduckling:
I don't think the problem would be that the top players would disagree Hunter. Even if there is a bit of disagreement most top players have consensus positions, especially on the big issues. Even when they disagree on what they want they often agree on the facts, they just disagree on what would be fun or interesting. One team might (as an example) want a spire buff for some reason, and another might want it nerfed, but often they agree on what the consequences of those changes would be, they just have a different ideal meta.

The problem is Muse seem to have minimal interest in optimizing the game for higher level play. In pub games against low level enemies the metamidion is still extremely effective (it also still works in high level play situationally but that is beside the point), all you need to operate it is a decent gungineer, a gunner who fires into the hull, and a pilot who points the ship at a target. Most novices don't repair or shoot efficiently and many, many novice pilots cant design builds or keep guns in arc. Two forward facing light guns are horrifically effective against them if players have just paid attention to the tutorial and know what piercing and explosive damage does.

The metamidion is a first-order optimal strategy in GoI, that is a strategy which is relatively straightforward to pull off and pays off highly. Problem before the nerf was that it wasn't simply first-order optimal, it was just optimal, any fleet composition needed a meta. The nerf fixed one problem but generated at least two more. It made the pyra basically worthless for experienced players most of the time, and it still left a massive skill gap between the meta and the next tier up of ships. Successful operation of a lumber- or blender- fish or a meta-junker or a brawling spire requires a fair chunk more skill than a pyra does. This is part of why vets get frustrated with novices, you cant use a lot of builds because they are just too complicated to explain during a 5 minute lobby timer.

To make the pyra interesting in higher level play it needs a small buff, otherwise only a small number of builds work with it. My worry is that one way to fix the skill gap between the pyra and other ships is to raise the skill required to operate the pyra successfully in low level lobbies, that is nerf the pyra even further. I suspect they will just leave it where it is and the pyra will end up as the noob-tube of GoI. I think that is a shame for what is a potentially very interesting ship.

I just hope for once if things are nerfed or buffed the changes are small. The hwacha isn't crazy overpowered, remove one rocket from it and see how it goes. The pyra isn't stupidly weak, give it 5% more armor or a little extra turning speed and see what happens.

BlackenedPies:

--- Quote from: Hunter. on October 05, 2015, 12:42:32 pm ---Does anyone know if Muse ever considered taking on some volunteers from top clans to discuss balance changes?

Once again, just throwing this stuff out there - would love to hear some opinions.

--- End quote ---

Muse members have gone around asking for feedback. They get many different opinions and as Muse says: it takes us 6 months to implement changes.

Pyra was my most played ship and it needed a nerf. The hull nerf was a good answer but taking away its acceleration was not. Pyra doesn't need hull or turning, and the medium armor and mediocre vertical are fine. What it needs is speed. The pyra is not a ranged ship so it doesn't need hull. It's a close range brawler that relies on speed. Revert the hull and sure it's better in pub matches but not high level play. It needs speed. I'd gladly fly a pyra with 500 hull but not 2.25 m/s^2.

Hwatcha is easier to use and more effective. It should be reverted to the old jitter of 6. Because I'm biased to buff burst hwatcha I say give it 5 jitter. Revert heavy carro jitter to 6 from 8. The jitter increase only hurt galleons that use charged flak left - carro right. And increase up arc.

Thomas:
I think just about everyone agrees the pyra needed a nerf, but it was taken a little far. Having more speed would make it a nice glass cannon, being able to pack a punch and keep up with the other ships. Right now it's just basic target practice.

As for gun balance, the small change to hwacha had a pretty big impact. I'm not sure why the jitter was changed at all. They say it was due to the heavy clip adjustment, but that's still totally stupid. Why didn't the other guns have their jitter changed then? Why bother changing heavy clip if you're going to compensate by changing the jitter? And when it comes to the carronade nerf, there were some comments made that made it seem that it was partially to compensate for gunner stamina. Why weren't other guns adjusted for gunner stamina in a similar fashion, particularly the heavy guns? Lumberjack is still as powerful as ever, and the stamina gives the hwacha a surprisingly huge boost with the reload speed.

I think Muse just kind of makes changes without thinking about them too much or at all.

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