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Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
DrTentacles:
I'm willing to accept the idea that there aren't too many people doing competitive galleon these days, so my perception is skewed. It takes a team willing to revolve around it, and treat it as the "center" rather than it's own entity, which takes specialized team practice. Alone, it dies to most well piloted ships.
nhbearit:
There is one thing about this thread that manages to confuse me. Since when aren't Junkers awesome? They are the quintessential escort ship. Period. They have two sets of weapons that they can basically switch out at a moments notice. They also are highly maneuverable, and very easy to coordinate crew on. Like seriously.. Pair a Junker with any other ship (including another Junker) and it just shines. Assuming that the Junker is IN the fight of course. I've seen a lot of ridiculous comments on this thread so a quick note to everyone here: take a minute and think through what it is you're saying before you post.
Lieutenant Noir:
Hey, hey don't hunt me down just yet :(
With the changes you would still be able to bring brawler loadouts on the Mobula, my problem is that the Mobula is both effective at Sniping and Brawling (while also occupying the firepower of a trifecta).
My changes to the Junker and Mobula are to separate the effectiveness of Brawling and Sniping that the current Mobula has into two ships.
You would still be able to Snipe and Brawl on either of these trifecta ships, but one would be more specialized than the other at the job (You bring either ship depending on if you will be spending more time Brawling or Sniping instead of just bringing a Mobula because it's good for both).
--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 22, 2015, 05:13:32 pm ---Out of curiosity what do you find counters a junker aside from moving backwards shooting at it and laughing at its slow speed?
--- End quote ---
I mentioned this before so I'll say it again
The Junker is very slow and has very exposed components and this makes it very counter able by Disable weapons.
Let me label some situations where I've been countered:
Hwatcha: Destroyed every single component in a single barrage (Kinda like a Hwatcha on the engines on a Squid)
Lumberjack: Destroyed the balloon and broke armor in two clips from highly exposed balloon and projectile drop of Lumbershot
Artemis: Destroyed multiple components in one Burst shot due to closeness of the components
Carronade: Destroyed balloon every time because the Balloon was at the top of the ship (Playing into the Upward arcs of the Carronades)
In all of these situations the High armor of the Junker never helped because the damage modifier dug into the Armor. :-\
-I think if you have a ship with so many exposed components, it shouldn't be a Tank!
-I think I could avoid more of these situations to greater success if the ship had more maneuverability in terms of speed like the Squid or Goldfish to avoid shots
-My suggestion to decrease the Armor was to give it a weakness in terms of the benefits in brawling capabilities (If you have firepower and Brawl, you should be avoiding arcs and so Armor should be less). Not to mention, the Hull has a fairly small hitbox and so the Decreased armor makes sense in a way.
-It's high turn speed plays into the specialized nature of Brawling and avoiding arcs which I believe would play towards the play style of Brawling very well.
Let me give a comparison to describe the traits of the suggested changes of the two ships:
Junker:
Mobility: High turn mobility to out maneuver enemy ships in close range engagements. Good Max speed to get into brawl engagements faster.
Firepower: Trifecta (Cause of front gun that can be used either side) for Brawl and Difecta for Range.
Tankability: Poor armor and easy to engineer on which plays into the nature of Brawling (Avoiding arcs and out maneuvering which means less exposure to enemy fire)
Mobula:
Mobility: High vertical mobility to dodge ambushes and close range engagements. Also decent Max speed to control distancing and provide time for crew mates to jump onto short range guns.
Firepower: Trifecta for Range (Cause of front facing top deck gun) and Difecta for Brawl
Tankability: Good armor and easy to engineer on which plays into the nature of Sniping (You will be staying still and so be more exposed to enemy fire so you need that armor)
Both these ships would be very versatile as they both carry long and short range guns. My suggestion is to make one ship more effective than the other at using either short or long range guns while still having the utility of both guns.
Hense the...
--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 22, 2015, 10:40:16 am ---If you're wondering if I made these suggestions to make the Junker Hard Counter a Mobula...
A Junker vs. Mobula in a cramped map = Junker would stab a Mobula in the Back
A Junker vs. Mobula in an open map = Mobula would destroy a Junker before it could even blink
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 22, 2015, 05:13:32 pm ---"but we already have a ship (Goldfish) that kinda takes the place of being a noob friendly as well as fairly versatile" - more or less 100% due to the current hwacha. Minotaur, Flak, Carronade and Lumberjack fish are not at all noob friendly.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I meant Hwatchafish.
I kinda meant it in the manner that a Pyramidion was noob friendly because of the Gat/Mort combo. I still thought the Hwatchafish was very versatile and noob friendly even before the Buff. I think it occupies the Niche of being an effective Jack-of-all-Trades and I don't think the Junker is a very effective ship for occupying that role.
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I do agree that the Mobula is not "that" OP but I still don't think a ship that has Decent forward Mobility and Extremely good vertical mobility should have good Turn speed. I believe the turn speed should be a weakness that the Mobula has in response to Multi-range firepower and High vertical mobility.
Squidslinger Gilder:
I wouldn't mind the original Junker back. Everyone hated it but I used to do rather well with it. It turned slower and wasn't ultra armored. With the Pyra in godlike form, it would easily fall prey to Pyras if the pilot wasn't proactive enough. Hence why it was hated. But it moved decent enough to perform good ambushes. When Muse buffed it, the change was great but ultimately it forced it into a ranged fighter more than CQC. Slow down + high turn rate made it into the perfect sniper platform.
So really, we're still suffering from the design changes that brought about the sniper era. Part of the game is still balanced for sniper play when sniper play has been nerfed into oblivion.
Personally, I think we'd be in a better state if Muse would not overhaul ships one by one but do a big picture update. Then stick to it. We've had countless updates to the Pyra yet very few for other ships. Its to the point they could spin off a version of the game with just Pyras. Half the time the Pyra didn't even need work, just work being done to other ships or guns in the game.
Daft Loon:
--- Quote from: MightyKeb on September 22, 2015, 08:29:19 pm ---...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 22, 2015, 09:49:17 pm ---Hey, hey don't hunt me down just yet :(
--- End quote ---
I may have overreacted/exaggerated slightly, a slight loss of turning wont kill dedicated brawl mobulas entirely. Still can't agree with it though, the multi role mobula is powerful at the moment because multi role is more or less the meta, trying to shove everything into a niche seems counterproductive.
My speculative changes:
Junker
Max turn: 16 --> 14
Turn Acc.:15 --> 13
Vertical Acc.: 3 --> 4
Max Speed: 26 --> 30
Artemis
Down Arc: 35 --> 20
Hwacha
Up/Down Arc: 20 --> 15
The junker would still have good close range turning but wouldn't be able to rely on swapping sides in 3s. The vertical acceleration would make it suffer less from balloon damage and the speed boost would be enough to kill 'fly backwards laughing' as a strategy.
Dropping the artemis arc would force the mobula to chose between safety and attacking and would be an indirect buff to the spire, junker and galleon.
--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on September 22, 2015, 10:24:50 pm --- Its to the point they could spin off a version of the game with just Pyras.
--- End quote ---
'Metamidions on battle on the dunes' the game
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