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Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker

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Lieutenant Noir:
I wanted to describe some thoughts about changes to the Mobula and the Junker as I believe these two ships are on opposite ends of functionality.
I'm not saying one is better than the other (okay, kinda) but that one ship clearly has more versatility than I think really should.
I wanted to address some issues and lay down suggestions concerning these ships.

The main way I usually describe the versatility of a ship is that I describe the strengths and weaknesses of three aspects of what I think a ship's role serves.
Mobility, Firepower, and Tankability
I'm not going to label every single one of them for each ship or I'll be writing this all day, I'm just going to label the aspects that I believe are most important.
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Mobula

Strengths of the Mobula
-I believe that one of the Mobula's strengths lie in it's ability to have multi-range capabilities in firepower (Due it's multiple front-facing guns as well as decent Max Speed to control distancing).
-I believe another strength of the Mobula is in it's exceptional abilities in controlling Vertical mobility and I believe this gives the ship extra utility in dodging, avoiding arcs, and controlling gun arcs.

My problem
-I think one of the weaknesses given to the Mobula was in it's slow turn acceleration of 3.50 deg/s² . Although I do think that this is a good inclusion for the Mobula to have this weakness, in practice this weakness is negated by the fact that it has a Max turning speed of 14.02 deg/s (a little bit faster than a Goldfish). This aspect even has me being successful in turning without the use of Phoenix Claw.
-I don't particularly like this aspect because I believe it gives the Mobula too much versatility in narrow/cramped environments as well as reaction time in ambushes.

Suggestion and suggested effects
-I would want the Max Turning speed to be similar to that of a Galleon (8.02 deg/s)
-I don't think having a lower Max turning speed would change the popularity of the Mobula too much.
-It would still reign over large open maps with plenty of space to provide covering fire but it would be less successful in cramped environments and be more vulnerable to ambushes where the enemy is behind them.
-I think it would also make captains be more wary about areas where ambushes might occur as well as make crew members jump on close range guns faster.

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Junker

-I think one of the aspects that gives the Junker so many weaknesses compared to other ships is in the traits that lead to it being a slow Max speed, tank.
-I say this mainly because I think the way the Junker is designed doesn't make it a very good slow, tank but more a Fast, Glass Cannon.

Game-play reasons
-The Junker has very exposed guns and engines much like a Squid and Goldfish but unlike those two it doesn't have the mobility to avoid many those disables.
-The Junker's Balloon is also on the top of the ship. This means that the upward arcs of the Carronades and the Projectile drop of the Lumberjack are an easy shot for a slow target like the Junker's Balloon. Before you mention that a Galleon is slow with a Balloon on top, a Galleon has the firepower to fend off such attacks and (Although this doesn't really apply in this scenario) has one of the higher top speeds in the game.
-Although you could say the Hull sweet spot makes the Junker easier to engineer on, components on the Junker will stay broken for longer because they're broken (This makes the ship much more vulnerable to continued disables as mobility and firepower are hindered).
-This also means that it will be easier to keep a Junker disabled because it already didn't have the mobility to avoid the disables in the first place  :-\

Functionality Reasons
-I honestly don't think a scrap of junk ship like a Junker should have the second highest armor in the game
-Especially for a ship with a hull surface area of 350 m² (Smallest hull exposure in the game) as well as a weight of 125 t (Lighter than a Goldfish)
-It is described in it's description as not having the sturdiest armor "Though its improvised scrap-metal construction is not the sturdiest" and I doubt that "mercenaries and freelancers who make their living from salvage, trade, and other odd jobs" have access to Highly durable, Light weight alloys from salvage.
-I will defiantly say that the design of the ship does make it look very tanky but I think the closeness of the components in making the ship easier to engineer on fulfills the purpose of the tanky concept design.

Wrap up
-I understand that the Junker sort of has a role in being a Jack-of-all-Trades but we already have a ship (Goldfish) that kinda takes the place of being a noob friendly as well as fairly versatile, so it kinda already fulfills that role.
-I think that being a jack-of-all-trades makes the Junker very much a master-of-none in many many situations.
-Before you say that you have used the Junker and it works, I have used the Junker too (for 2 years) and the only thing I use it for is for Mines and whenever the match is a pubstomp (there just wasn't that many situations where I have succeeded in using it because the enemy always Hard-countered every variation of Junker I had).
-I know that there aren't that many ships that will be able to tank if the Junker became more of a Glass Cannon but I'm sure people would rather have a ship that would be better designed around the purpose of tanking.

Suggestion
-My suggestion is to increase the Max Speed and decrease the Armor to make it more of a Fast, Glass Cannon.
-I wouldn't want the Junker to replace the Squid and so I would want the Junker to have less mobility than the Squid with the trade-off being more firepower.
-Just have a Top speed similar to that of a Galleon (30~) and Armor more in line with a Goldfish or Spire (400~)
-Then I would see the Junker being more of an Ambush ship with Pilots bringing it for High risk (In regards to the Low Health and Armor) for High reward (Good mobility and Firepower)



If you're wondering if I made these suggestions to make the Junker Hard Counter a Mobula...
A Junker vs. Mobula in a cramped map = Junker would stab a Mobula in the Back
A Junker vs. Mobula in an open map = Mobula would destroy a Junker before it could even blink

Byron Cavendish:
I have advocated for a while that the junker and spire need to swap stats (more or less, not number for number). I think for the spire to be brought to the level of competitive (that doesn't mean it is never or can never be used, but competitive means current goldfish meta level, not thralls) it needs to have tankiness in armour. The ship needs to be able to afford 3 crew to fire all weapons at the same time, and the only way for that to happen consistently is if it has the armour to allow a main engineer some time to shoot, like on a galleon. Currently with it's armour so low, you almost always have an engineer repairing the hull, and that means the other one more than not needs to keep a chem cycle and repair the bottom. Your gun turret ship quickly becomes just a heavy weapons platform like a goldfish, without the speed or maneuverability. Finally lore-wise, the spire visually is made of almost completely metal, from its balloon container all the way to it's needle. It is an isolated sentry on guard duty. Of course it would be armoured.

If the junker had the squishiness of the spire, it would certainly change the junker's style and use profoundly. However at this point it too is hardly competitive, and I flew competitive junkers as much as I could. Hell I started the triple artemis junker and double artemis/hades junker trends competitively. I will not touch a junker now, unless for fun or munkering. Now I think a cool thing and strength of the junker will always be its versatility and jack-of-all-trades status. That won't change. However with some buffed speed and reduced armour, (perhaps somewhere between the goldfish and squid in terms of speed and armour values both) it could become a harasser that can flirt in combat instead of turtling at range. I agree with you that lore-wise, the junker doesn't have much armour, or much of anything. It has a tarp for a walk-way, and is barely holding itself together. With that light weight and comparatively large balloon, it should be able to move fast.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Yeah I've advocated for awhile that the Junker just seemed like it had stats reversed. Granted when the armor goes down, it folds up like nothing, but it isn't a big ship. Nor is the design one that would have a lot of armor. I think it could potentially be a very modular ship in PVE but the stock version we have in PVP is more or less just junk hacked together and made into a ship. Making it lighter and a little faster  but easier to kill would be a reasonable trade off. In fact for the number of guns and flexibility of it, it is surprising that it can be so tanky.

Suspect Muse is willing to make it tanky because they consider the balloon such a major weakness that if it was weaker it wouldn't be very fun. But consider the Squid, balloons can go out on those and it sorta just floats down. If the Junker is brought lighter and it doesn't fall like a rock when popped, there is the counter blenders. Specially since it can often just turn and broadside a foe. The captain can keep a ship oriented and balloon repaired or under rebuild while the crew can ignore repairs and focus on taking down the blender.

Daft Loon:
Please no.

Take away my brawl mobula and i will hunt you for the rest of days. More seriously the problem is that people can take a boring merc/hades + double artemis mobula and then add carro-flamer or gat-mortar as well for defence. Crippling it at close range will only force people more into the boring use of the mobula. Dialing back the hwacha and carronade changes 50% would put the mobula in the right place.

If the junker needs to change trade away some of its absurd turning speed (I mean, its 4 times as long as wide with the engines closer together than any other ship but somehow among the fastest turning) for top speed and vertical speed.

The way i think about armor/hull is that the hull makes sense based on the size and solidity of the ship while the armor is just balance. That way the giant plates of armor hull on the goldfish dont confuse me.

Out of curiosity what do you find counters a junker aside from moving backwards shooting at it and laughing at its slow speed?

"but we already have a ship (Goldfish) that kinda takes the place of being a noob friendly as well as fairly versatile" - more or less 100% due to the current hwacha. Minotaur, Flak, Carronade and Lumberjack fish are not at all noob friendly.

Byron Cavendish:

--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 22, 2015, 05:13:32 pm ---Out of curiosity what do you find counters a junker aside from moving backwards shooting at it and laughing at its slow speed?

--- End quote ---

Are you asking based on the current junker or the hypothetical one?

I agree with you on mobula, it's fine.

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