A Suggestion for the Echidna Light Flak Cannon

[Kamoba]

Don't know why anyone would want to increase the projectile speed, to be able to inflict hull damage should not be guaranteed with a gun that is easier to hit with but skill of the shooter or captain getting in a good over watching position. Can't get any red hits when their armour goes down?  Well that's part of the challenge of the midrange piercing + explosives meta. Timing is different and gungineers may need to look for puffs of smoke when armour is getting low

This guy, right here. ^

[Lieutenant Noir]

Big *Donkey* wall of text

I felt that due to the risk of enemies staying in the arming time of the Flak I always had to compensate for it by taking other guns that did the same thing but slightly worse and didn't have arming time.
When I said I wanted to give the Flak some love... I kinda meant make it OP (I'm very bad with words)

Let me try to explain:
I understand that from Close quarters to long range there should be a decrease in damage
-I'm going to ignore the Artemis and Banshee because although they have a decreased explosive damage output they offer disable and fire stacks (A bit unfair to compare to explosive - explosive weapons).
-Although the flak has mid-range and DPS it has a really really bad con and it's that it has Arming time

Other guns compensate for utility/ damage output due to the fact that they have arming time
Lumberjack - in a clip will break a balloon with devastating power and potentially solo kill the ship
Mines - can stun/ de-Arc an enemy ship, deal decent damage to every component, and potentially solo kill the ship
Hades - Long range Gatling Flamer meaning armor will never stay up and can potentially solo kill the ship
Heavy Flak - can potentially one-shot ships and does enough damage to kinda break armor

Do you see where I was going with the original Suggestion?
I basically wanted to make the Light Flak a mid-range Heavy Flak because I wanted to keep the arming time on the Light Flak.
I didn't want Muse to suddenly make the Flak good again because it does magical impact damage or something. It has Flak in it's name, it should act similar to it's older brother who has found a nice warm place in GOIO.

From what I've heard of the old Light Flak let me compare what the suggested Light Flak would be like
Old Light Flak
-Easy to shoot and land hits, no arming, Longer mid-range and short range due to no arming, decent damage
New suggested Light Flak
-Hard to shoot and land hits Already implemented, Arming time Already implemented, mid-range only Already Implemented, more damage to compensate for Arming time

Also about the DPS thing... when you have to keep a ship only at mid range and have to strip it's armor. You might as well have a gun that can kill short and mid-range in one clip, Stop them from shooting you as well as kill them and potentially help in breaking armor, or stack fire to keep their armor down as well as kill.

^you know what those guns are, because you have all used them in favor of the Flak

Alternative suggestion: Get rid of the gun

Tl;dr Make Light Flak more like Heavy Flak

[Omniraptor]

Another buff that was already implemented is moving some aoe damage value into direct damage to make unarmed shots sting a little more.

[Kamoba]

Light flak definitely has a home, and in Alliance mode is looking to be a very popular choice, which will likely encourage its use in skirmish mode too, it is a good kill weapon at the right ranges.

And along with focused firepower, it is a beast of a weapon, it just needs more pilots realising its strengths over its weaknesses in my opinion:)

[Mr.Bando]

i kind of like how the flak is. Any stronger and no one will want to brawl and you get these unexciting and frustrating shooting contest covering the entire distance of one map boundary to the other. that was exactly how it was until they made changes to the mini flak, Artemis and Mercury and heavy flak to what we see of them today.

[Mr.Bando]

However, if I want to make it work better at what it's suppose to do at its given range:
-slightly reduce jitter by a few percent. Not too much so heavy clip can still be relevant for the longer shots. Or so you can at least hit a galleon a few times if you use Lemok.
-reduce damage per shot but increase magazine size by 2 or 3 shots to make a zero net gain/loss on damage potential per reload.
-can't complain about projectile speed, that can stay where it is
-I like the idea of increasing primary damage while decreasing secondary damage, but arming time should be tweaked slightly to compensate.

[Dementio]

Counter argumentative wall of text.

The Light Flak can empty its clip in less than 2.5 seconds (regardless of ammo type) to do 672 damage per clip (normal rounds), reloads within 4s, like the minelauncher and thus quicker than any other gun in the game, so you are quickly able to shoot at broken armor again in case you timed it wrong.

Use a buff hammer and burst or heatsink on it and you can kill 3 out of 7 ships in one clip, while two more can be finished by a Hades or even a Gatling. Galleon and Goldfish the only one that can survive, but are dead after the next clip. The Goldfish and Squid can repair their armor quickly, yes, but then again, the Flak empties its clip very quickly and reloads very quickly too.

Its spread can be felt, but it can still very reliably hit a targets hull at its max range. At max range the shot is easier to be dodged so if you are up against a competent pilot that has decent balloon/engine health, you will have troubles, yes, but the same goes for a lot of other guns, so predict the enemy pilot's movement. #GunnerSkill

The Light Flak is better than the Artemis and Banshee when it comes to killing, because it gets the kill much quicker. The moment you start creating fire stacks with the Banshee or disabling with an Artemis you will run into the issue of not being able to get the kill, because most of your clip is gone or you are reloading and when you are done, the enemy armor is rebuild.
Fun Fact: Instead of creating fires and disabling guns, the Flak does create a lot of smoke. I only had to face a double light Flak once and I couldn't see the enemy in front me, as a pilot.

Remove the arming time of the Light Flak and you get a better Mortar, not able to get the kill in one clip against all the ships, but getting the kill in two clips against all the ships, while it can profit more from the Gatligns 450m range.



And this is a quote from how the Light Flak's balance changed, because I want to compare the current Light Flak to the old one:

- Light Flak: Spread 1 degree (from 4), Arming Time 0.85s (from 0, arming range 300m), Range 1000m (from 790m), Scope Power 2x (from 1.5), 6 Ammo Clip Size (from 4), 2 Bullets/s (from 2.32 b/s), 45 Explosive Direct / 30 Explosive AoE (from 96/30)

It's rate of fire was then increased to ~2.8 b/s, direct explosive damage is now 50 and its arming time is 150m, later its reload time was decreased to 4s from 5s. And it also got more zoom and was decreased in gun rotation speed, but is still one of the fastest to rotate guns.
So compared to what you said about the old flak

From what I've heard of the old Light Flak let me compare what the suggested Light Flak would be like
Old Light Flak
-Easy to shoot and land hits, no arming, Longer mid-range and short range due to no arming, decent damage

It did have decent damage per shot, but it was never easier to land hits, especially with even more degrees of spread and it did have less maximum range than today. Damage per clip, unbuffed and normal rounds was 705.6 and emptied its clip in 2 seconds, compared to the current one, which empties its clip in 1.75s, with normal rounds.
DPS is not all that important for explosive guns, but if you want to know: Current ~117 vs old ~109 (both normal rounds)



The current Light Flak is perfectly fine as it is, while I personally believe the old one was worse when compared to the current one.
Instead of making the Light Flak more like the Heavy Flak, why not use the Heavy Flak to begin with? The Light Carronade is also not that similar to the Heavy Carronade anymore. It can destroys balloons in two clips, while the Heavy C. can destroy balloons in one clip. Light Flak can kill every ship in two clips, Heavy Flak can destroy every ship in one clip (well, it is guaranteed if charged rounds and buffed).
And when talking about arming time: It really isn't that hard to stay 150m away from the enemy or 120m when using heatsink, come on now.

[MightyKeb]

It really isn't that hard to stay 150m away from the enemy or 120m when using heatsink, come on now.

Oh yes, and the moment a single shot hits before arming you tend to lose that oh-so-mighty damage potential for maybe a third clip or so, which can put it on par with banshee. It infact is on par with banshee as long as something as limiting and unreliable as the arming timer is in place.

[Lieutenant Noir]

What builds do you bring the Flak on?

Let me know the ways that you use it.

I have a Mobula with top Flak, Balloon Hades, Hull Gatling, Balloon-wing Artemis, and Hull-wing Flare.
I have a third crewmember as buff engi and when I spot an enemy, I would make them top up the buff on the Flak and quickly jump onto the Artemis.
If the armor breaks (Hopefully before the buff on the Flak runs out... it almost always runs out) I jump onto the Flak with heat sink.

Another is a range centralized spire with lumberjack, Hades and Artemis up top, with a Flak at the bottom. I make the gunner load in greased or heat sink into the Flak for when Armor breaks.

I want to know the special role that everyone seems to see in it

[Dementio]

I say, you should use the Light Flak when you just want to get the kill and intend to not brawl face to face.

Although I don't do many Pyramidions, if I were to choose between front Hades/Artemis and front Hades/Flak, I would choose the one with the Flak. The Pyramidion is rather vulnerable, so the enemy should preferebly die quickly. It is also a good support dps ship.

I also believe that in every Hades/double Artemis trifecta one Artemis could be replaced with a Light Flak and be just as efficent, although the Artemis lack of upwards arcs restrict the Light Flak as the ship will probably want to be above the enemy -> balloons may block Flak and probably won't attack from below, because of the Artemis -> less opportunities for victory.

I do believe that Mobulas with a Light Flak perform better than with Banshees or Mortars, unless it is intended for it to be purely for close range. I personally wouldn't put the Light Flak on the top wings though, because I always fear that guns like that won't have the arcs that I want them to have.



A lot of my ships are very disable oriented so I often don't get the chance or need to use it at all.

I have exactly one ship where I use it on: Lumberjack Spire, with Light Flak on top, bottom (lesmok) Gatling, top side flare. I have the Flak, because Mortar doesn't have the range and Banshee is not going to kill anything.

There was also a Mobula loadout I once adapted: Top Flak, bottom hull Hades, top hull Hades 2, balloon bottom Artemis, balloon top Flare. The idea was, I guess, that the Hadeses would destroy the armor quicker than a normal Hades Pyra, while the balloon Artemis makes sure armor and Hadeses stay safe. In order to really kill something the Pilot had to use the Light Flak. It was very effective, but I feared that once somebody was smart enough to actually get close to me, I would be dead, so I stopped using it, and also because I couldn't really move around stuff while shooting and having arc.

I have a Squid with front Hades and side Banshee. If the Light Flak, or Hades, had better horizontal arcs, I would use a side Light Flak instead.
As well, I would also do side Light Flak on a Squid with a front Gatling, but I don't do Squids with a front Gatling, so that's that.

[BlackenedPies]

For mobula you want the light flak on a wing or bottom position with the hades up top. Hades has the most limited arcs and benefits the most from being buffed/having a gunner. If you're putting the flak on the bottom I recommend it on the balloon side as that position tends to be more static, and you likely want the engineer to bring chem spray. The hull side engi needs a spanner mallet. Buffs only work on the top position and situationally on the balloon side- you never want a buff on the hull side. Only use a wrench buff on the balloon if you don't expect to take balloon damage. I always have the top engi bring spanner mallet buff. As pilot you can bring a fire extinguisher to extinguish the top gun if it catches on fire (look up and jump).

The most potent mid range kill combo for mobula is hades top, gat bottom right, and light flak bottom left. Here is an example of mid range pure kill with lesmok gat and defense flamethrower (gunner jumps to flame).


My favorite ranged mobula uses a lesmok light flak on the top left. An artemis is often used in the right position but I prefer the banshee for better arcs and higher damage (+25% hull and armor dps). Buffed charged merc does a bit more dps than lesmok hades, and heavy clip banshee + lesmok light flak each do about 30% of merc dps to armor. Positions are merc flak banshee, merc gat banshee, or flak gat banshee depending on opponent and position.


The other ship I sometimes use light flak on is lumber spire. Depending on opponents the bottom gun may be heavy clip banshee or burst light flak.

http://ducksoficarus.servegame.com/

[Mr.Bando]

Don't usually fly mobula as much as i used to and only for ranged loadouts. But the hades + dual miniflaks were my favourite. Gunner got the top hades while both engineers took the bottom flaks. Wingtips were usually flamers or mine launchers since the hades ammo was compatible and were used for self defense by the gunner who jumped down.  Engineers never needed to move anywhere else and were always close enough to get into repair mode. They carry greased or heatsink to reduce arming time so its not so helpless in close range.

[Daft Loon]

An interesting point: The hull of the pyramidion takes an absolute minimum (assuming 1 engineer only) of 5.6s to rebuild while the light flak takes 5.75s to reload and fire an entire clip (5.4s for the 5 shots needed to kill), so in the right situation vs a pyra,junker,galleon (and probably mobula in practice) there is essentially no risk to firing for armor dps. The L.Flak does 144 armor damage per clip and marginally exceeds the mallets repair with normal rounds so it is fairly beneficial.

[ZnC]

Interesting points brought up by everyone. My perspective is one from a gunner who spent a lot of time studying every gun.

I do find that the Light Flak (like the Heavy Flak) is very specialized - it is only effective when armed, isn't very accurate, needs a forward facing mount, and most importantly, doesn't do much in the important first moments of a fight. I've thought about ways to put it on my Spire, however a Banshee is simply better - better arcs, rotation speed, and damage to armor & balloon.

But thinking it through, I imagine the Light Flak would be a strong follow-up weapon used by a killing ship, after a disabler has engaged and worn down the enemy. The gun is fine as it is when I think about it this way.

[Kamoba]

Interesting points brought up by everyone. My perspective is one from a gunner who spent a lot of time studying every gun.

I do find that the Light Flak (like the Heavy Flak) is very specialized - it is only effective when armed, isn't very accurate, needs a forward facing mount, and most importantly, doesn't do much in the important first moments of a fight. I've thought about ways to put it on my Spire, however a Banshee is simply better - better arcs, rotation speed, and damage to armor & balloon.

But thinking it through, I imagine the Light Flak would be a strong follow-up weapon used by a killing ship, after a disabler has engaged and worn down the enemy. The gun is fine as it is when I think about it this way.

That is why I like flak on the mobula (see Blackenedpies post above) because it taakes advantage of Artemis wear down, and is only shot during armour break, unlike the banshee, which from my observation most players mis-time the shots of, or target balloon while armour os up, now while this is a good use for banshee, when the aim is midrange kills, I find it better to "wait for red" which most people do withe the flak.

Maybe the accuracy could be looked at, but I'm unsure atm..