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Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?

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Kamoba:
The problem with increasing turn speed is that the ship becomes the goto ship for every pilot who does not like thinking ahead and anticipating enemy moves... Which means every less experienced pilot...

Also due to the amount of out-dated information saying how "good" the pyra is, there are still many players who use it under the now false information that it is good...

Personally I don't know what should be done with it.. In a balanced match of players who know their salt, its one of the absolute weakest choices, meaning its unbalanced.. But in a lobby of less salted players, it manages to get wins due to the easy "point and shoot" play style...

Daft Loon:
Assuming 20m spread to be acceptable:
Hwacha - 285m
Old Hwacha - 190m
Heavy clip Hwacha - 952m
Nerfed burst Hwacha (+ 30% spread) - 220m
Light flak - 1176m (1000m range limit)
Light flak + 30% - 905m
With burst Hwacha getting 1.6 times the rockets of heavy assuming a linear effect of allowed misses to be equally effective:
Burst Hwacha - 342m
Old burst Hwacha - 228m
Heavy Clip Hwacha - 714m
Nerfed Burst Hwacha - 263m

Calculating as:  range = (Acceptable spread x 360)/(2 x pi x jitter). 20m is roughly the largest diameter circle that fits on the side of a galleon.
Giving burst a spread nerf would dial it back towards where it was before (+50% would be equal), i don't think the effect on light flak would really be that bad - it would just mean swapping to charged for that range (+8% damage per clip rather than +20% and unloads slightly faster than burst). It won't make heavy clip any better but I'm not sure that's needed.

For a different approach what about nerfing the explosive damage on the hwacha, currently it can one clip junker, pyra and mobula (with squid and spire too assuming a small amount of gattling etc hull damage) using unbuffed burst rounds. Maybe it shouldn't be as good at killing, moving it out of the Heavy Flaks area a bit.


Some numbers for pyra:

Linear Acceleration average: 3.94
Pyra: 2.25  (6th)

Linear Speed Average: 32.8
Pyra: 30.35  (3rd)

Angular Acceleration Average: 11.2   
Pyra: 6.25  (5th)

Angular Speed Average: 13.5
Pyra: 11  (6th)

Vertical Acceleration Average: 3.79
Pyra: 2.75 (6th)

IMO its top speed is actually too fast, if you account for the much easier kerosene usage it enjoys its on par with the goldfish. I would favor giving it better linear acceleration at the expense of speed which would help both charging ambushes and dogfighting.

Extirminator:

--- Quote from: Daft Loon on July 30, 2015, 02:34:09 am ---Assuming 20m spread to be acceptable:

--- End quote ---

The distance in height between the light gun and heavy guns on the galleon is 7m and its about the same from the heavy guns to the bottom so it would be more like 15m.

Anyways, I have a piece of code I wrote to calculate the average maximum effective ranges of weapons such as hwacha against different components taking into account their hitbox sizes and the damage falloff of the aoe when the projectiles hit farther away. I'll just run the old and new hwacha with the current heavy(70% jitter) and burst being tested vs the destruction of a heavy gun to find the maximum effective range and leave it here:

average maximum effective ranges-

old hwacha-
burst:246m
buff burst:269m
heavy:515m
buff heavy:565m

current hwacha-
burst:369m
buff burst:403m
heavy:773m
buff heavy:847m

also just for the sake of the proposed burst jitter increase of +30%-
new hwacha with proposed burst rounds: 283m
I semi-like this suggestion, not because of the light flak because I just use heatsink on the light flak and normal when not in range for those 200m of difference. I don't really like it because it is again, addressing an issue with a gun through a change of an ammo type - Which is a wrong way of thinking about it in my opinion.

Squidslinger Gilder:

--- Quote from: Kamoba on July 30, 2015, 01:41:26 am ---The problem with increasing turn speed is that the ship becomes the goto ship for every pilot who does not like thinking ahead and anticipating enemy moves... Which means every less experienced pilot...

Personally I don't know what should be done with it.. In a balanced match of players who know their salt, its one of the absolute weakest choices, meaning its unbalanced.. But in a lobby of less salted players, it manages to get wins due to the easy "point and shoot" play style...

--- End quote ---

It doesn't need to be much. Awhile back Muse did a half a degree speed up in dev app and while it was still slow, it was enough to make it bearable. Point is, you'd be surprised how minor they need to tweak the Pyra to give it the turn rate boost it needs to counter it's shitty health.

As far as mental ability of pilots. The ship is already so weak that it just gets outclassed no matter how much mental prepwork a pilot does. The only position left to it becomes a support ship of some kind. The problem is with the Pyra that it is so damn slow it can't do that well because the moment someone sees it, it'll be focused on and killed.

Lets look at all the ships that can be support ships and see why they can excel in that role:

Squid - Fast, light armor, and quick hitting. A harasser. Can go beyond support but only with pilot skill and build.
Spire - Slow and an easy target, but makes up for weakness with firepower.
Galleon - Very slow, big target, but massive firepower and hull HP to counter focus fire.
Mobula - Slow, great vertical, high fire power. Great sniping platform that can also handle CQC in a pinch.
Goldfish - Fast, easy to repair and crew. Very dependent on forward gun staying up at all times.
Junker - Jack of all trades, can handle sniping or CQC to support an ally well. Lacks any speed to intercept. Has absolute insane armor due to gun point hitboxes.

The Pyra for over a year has been an attacker. Support roles were never a strong suit except for it's original days. It just lacks the flexibility. If you are going support and want total flexibility, you want Junker or Mob. If you want speed and the ability to change up roles on the fly, you take Squid. Firepower/sniper, take Spire/Galleon/Mob.

Right now say the Pyra goes sniper support on the side...it'll have maybe one engagement before it is focused on hard. Just no way it can dish out the ranged damage to do anything before foes are in it's face. Now say the pilot uses tools to shift ship orientation to address the oncoming attacker...the attacker only has to evade once and get in the Pyra's massive blindspot. There it'll likely be able to unload a whole clip into the Pyra before it can get it's gun arcs back on.

So evasion options...everything it has is tool based. In that situation. Gunning engines might work for a moment. But under sustained fire and with slow movement, how long will those engines last? Armor is going to drop before it breaks. Similar situation with Claw. Now Hydro, there is an option. But vertical is so slow that unless it is buffed, it won't do you much good. Chute is an option but again, so slow it won't buy you much time. Either way, vertical tools leave the vessel too weakened for more evasions so the ship just folds up.

You just run out of options too fast with the Pyra. You can say, plan ahead or think better till you're blue in the face. It isn't going to mean squat when the vessel is just outclassed by everything now.

If the ship is tuned for beginner players to prevent them from overusing it, you get a vessel that is a laughingstock which experienced players run circles around. No one really takes Pyras seriously anymore either way. However, if you tune it for experienced, you'll suddenly have experienced players thinking about loadouts and builds more as even in novice hands, it has the potential to be a threat.

Which is what it all comes down to...is the Pyra a threat right now? Answer is no.

Dementio:

--- Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on July 30, 2015, 07:16:26 am ---Which is what it all comes down to...is the Pyra a threat right now? Answer is no.

--- End quote ---

Even the current Pyramidion could be a thread, just like every other ship in the game can also not be a threat. The Galleon is just as bad of as the Pyramidion, if not worse, it can't even fly towards its allies without losing arc.

Not saying the Pyramidion couldn't use a slight buff, but still.

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