Was GOIO A Fluke?

[Arturo Sanchez]

I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Conditioned to like it? You wanna tell us all what you're smoking because if you have dev app access you'd know none of us were conditioned to like it. We've all shared plenty of concerns as the process went. Heck the original form of stamina was a bit nuts. Gunners were able to shoot straight up or straight down with all guns on it. We all spoke out on that. If you don't believe it then apply to join dev app and add your own input. Its pretty easy to get in. Muse hands out codes like candy.

If you want the "common people" to do your little survey then you need to get it listed in game because its pretty clear you'll only get very skewed results on the forums here. Especially when you word questions clearly towards dev app testers, not "common" folk.

Its a fresh new idea, the first real gameplay oriented one Muse has done in 2yrs. It was pretty clear it would be a benefit to the gameplay as a whole with only realism nuts going on crusades against it. Everyone wants gunners viable but no one ever agrees on how to do it. Literally stamina came as a result of about 2yrs of Muse considering ways to solve the problem. When considering that, they did a damn good job coming up with something like this without going into talent trees or passive buffs/etc that wouldn't really change anything.

[DJ Logicalia]

I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.

What is the distinction you're drawing between players and testers? If you want to be a tester just go grab a dev app key for yourself.

[David Dire]

Hey everyone.

I'm here to apologize for David. As long as he wears that tag, he's representative of my clan.
I wish not to derail the topic any further, so I'll keep this brief, but I hope any players reading this that are unfamiliar with Cake do not associate this behavior with me, my officers, any of my other members, or the clan as a whole.

It's actually quite the opposite of our purpose.
We have a zero tolerance policy for hate speech, and strongly discourage 'noob shaming.' He will be ejected from the clan as soon as I am done posting this.
David, if you wish to discuss this with me, you have multiple ways of contacting me privately. Please do so if you desire.

To be clear, he is not being kicked due to his opinions, but rather his crude way of presenting them.

Again, apologies to everyone here.

Actually I was planning to eject myself from the clan and basically lock my profile up game-wise, but, that works too.

[Arturo Sanchez]

I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.

What is the distinction you're drawing between players and testers? If you want to be a tester just go grab a dev app key for yourself.

weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.

kinda like soccer moms. Your child could be the spawn of satan in the eyes of many people, but that child is your baby. He's a positive angel to you.




as for you gilder.

I do have the dev app and I have tested it. But thats besides the point. I detested it from the conceptual stage. No matter how I tried to fit the circle shaped block into the star shaped hole, it just didn't seem like it fit.

And inb4 it was just some bias of your own preconceived notions. No. I tested it. I thought about its place in the game. My conclusion? No. Just no.

But thats not gonna stop tests from continuing though. It will go on regardless.





Heres a comparison of a good change and a bad change.

the new reload mechanics? FANTASTIC. utterly brilliant. everyone uses it and I have no heard a single complain.

The stamina system? You're felt like you need to use it as a gunner due to a few gun nerfs (you can't aim down without it on heavy carronade). That kinda forcing people's hands to accept it.


the changes made by your testing is simply sanding down that circular block to fit the star shaped hole. But does it fit? It goes through right?

[DJ Logicalia]

weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.

No it fucking doesn't. Look, man, I'm a psych major, and while I have't yet graduated, I know a thing or two about the brain and how people react to shit like testing. Psychologists do it all the time. How the hell do you think anyone learns bloody anything? Nothing works like how you're describing. Absolutely nothing. If you give me one piece of research that backs up your asinine claims, I'll uninstall the game.

I think I understand your issue here. You have an aversion to facts. Testing? Who needs testing? What's testing even going to do, give you information about this mechanic you're so furious about? Give you the ability to provide informed and helpful feedback? Pfft. Who needs that! Just talk like an ass about things you have no knowledge about, that's sure to help improve the game. Coast on your elitism and and act like you're above everyone else until something happens that you can get pissed about, even though you provide no positive benefits to this community what so ever.

You do you, Maxy.

[Richard LeMoon]

I actually emailed MUSE the night before the update practically begging them not to put certain things in. I was there from day one of stamina testing. My opinion never changed, and still has not. It is fun, but will be bad for new players. I knew they were putting way too much effort into it to simply drop it, so spent those weeks trying to give as much feedback as possible to soften the edges. The results show. Though I am still not happy with the results, I am proud of having shaped them. Perhaps we will see some of the other ideas I peddled.

The UI was the main reason for the last minute email. They have shown interest in some of my suggestions, and have passed them on to the art team.

The nerf to heavy clip was my strong suggestion, and I still think it a good one (with the addition of a few other things they left out).

So, ya. Logicalia is right. You are wrong, again.

[Arturo Sanchez]

weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.

No it fucking doesn't. Look, man, I'm a psych major, and while I have't yet graduated, I know a thing or two about the brain and how people react to shit like testing. Psychologists do it all the time. How the hell do you think anyone learns bloody anything? Nothing works like how you're describing. Absolutely nothing. If you give me one piece of research that backs up your asinine claims, I'll uninstall the game.

Here lies the double edged blade.

So as a major you should be aware of Psychology's history as failure of a "natural science." Fruedian psychology for decades caused horrible damage on the credibility to the field with its purely anecdotal/case study thesis. And sadly many schools of psychology still use this.

As a psych major I assume you are referencing the more modern empirical method. By which referenced by JB Watson (I know very old reference), psychology at the time (mainly referencing the behaviourist school) fails to truly be testable due to the presumption of the LACK the existence of free will or individuality (the observer effect being a possible factor in iffy test results by my conjecture). Or to paraphrase mainly to the immaterial nature of the field where nothing is solidly provable like chemistry or physics, it can't really be seen as a natural science.

So frankly any paper or report in psychology should really be taken with a grain of salt.

As for any paper? My knowledge of psyche is about the level of a layman. So please cite me some sources that you can say with 100% certainty that disproves classical conditioning. Reference a circumstance of  psychological behaviour that has a near 95+% reproduction rate.

Because if you want to talk FACTS here. You better have some.




As for you lemoon. So just because you softened the blow... means the blow is still not a reason to be outraged over? Not that I'm not ungrateful or anything. 

[BlackenedPies]

Muse can have stamina in their game if they want. If new players like it then I'm for it. Complaints don't help suggestions do.

[Admiral Obvious]

I have always felt stamina was more of a fun element to the game rather than any attempt of player gameplay-overhaul. It really leaves minimal impact as to the ending result of the game, an its just fun! That being said, for the gunner it is a huge help, so my previous statement more applies to pilot and engie.

[Ayetach]

There are a few posts that concern me so I'm going to make it very clear to all the posters here that we do follow the community standards here like we do in-game. Lets avoid unnecessary provocations & disrespectful remarks and stick to the constructive criticism - I don't mind the lively discussions on matters regarding the game but again lets keep the inflammatory remarks to a minimum irrespective of who you are. Thanks! ^^

Just incase someone needs a reference here's a link to the Community Standards so that we are clear on our conduct as posters.

[Piemanlives]

I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

People, this is going to cross the line eventually and before it does I'd like to remind you all that there are people watching this thread and are none too pleased with it.

First off thanks to my fellow CA's for trying to keep the peace. Secondly, shame on all of you who have taken the argument this far.

-snip-

-Snip-

Also this argument has literally nothing to do with the subject at hand, please take this discussion to PM's so none of us have to deal with it.

If this thread is to remain open we need to take the hostility down a few notches and discuss this like adults, I can't see why we have to be so rude to one another over someones take on the matter, all it does is foster a divide within the community and that was never something that could end well, those of you who have been around long enough know what I'm talking about.

Sure you have opinions about the matter, but if all it boils down to is saying "You don't agree with me so now you're an idiot" this will remain as unproductive as it has become and we'll keep going in circles till the end of time.

Also hi, to those of you who don't know me I do exist, to those who do know me I still exist.

[Omniraptor]

I actually emailed MUSE the night before the update practically begging them not to put certain things in. I was there from day one of stamina testing. My opinion never changed, and still has not. It is fun, but will be bad for new players. I knew they were putting way too much effort into it to simply drop it, so spent those weeks trying to give as much feedback as possible to soften the edges. The results show. Though I am still not happy with the results, I am proud of having shaped them. Perhaps we will see some of the other ideas I peddled.

The UI was the main reason for the last minute email. They have shown interest in some of my suggestions, and have passed them on to the art team.

The nerf to heavy clip was my strong suggestion, and I still think it a good one (with the addition of a few other things they left out).

So, ya. Logicalia is right. You are wrong, again.

That was you richard? It was a good suggestion of game design ammo effects should not be quite so drastic as to be required, and heavy clip was required. But still YOU (helped) break my favorite toy [cry].

As for putting 'too much effort' into something, try emailing muse an article about the sunk cost fallacy, I am sure they will appreciate it

The real question is, did you know it was the night before an update? how?

[ZnC]

I believe the biggest problem with stamina is that it goes against the simplicity of the game. A new core mechanic can add depth to the game, but the important thing is if it's fun. Otherwise, it would decrease the focus on already enjoyable game elements and upset players.

Omniraptor mentioned something in the past which has since became my favourite GOIO quote: "GOI is a very elegant/simple game, because everything interacts with everything else in a predictable and consistent manner. The fun comes from positioning and mastery of gunnery/repair."

Also, discussions are to share ideas and talk through them, not to convince other people that they are wrong. If you know that you are absolutely right, good; keep it to yourself. Personally though, I would never reply to anyone with a page in my "doesn't think deeply" or "absolute moron" book.

[Richard LeMoon]

I was testing in dev app and was told by someone there that those changes were going live in the morning. I thought they were joking. I was actually already writing the email and was halfway done before I was told. I may have gotten a little hostile in my words after hearing that (I did apologize).

I do try to test things out in devapp as often as I can and give helpful critiques. I have been on dev teams before (as a writer), and understand the effect of players' frustrated yelling on dev motivation and interaction with the community. Basically, the more toxic the community, the less the devs listen. I was one of the few that would still sift through the raging dross to find the valid feedback. What you do learn as well as that the loudest and most hostile people are not often representative of the greater silent population.