Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Byron Cavendish on May 03, 2015, 02:05:33 pm

Title: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on May 03, 2015, 02:05:33 pm
*Before reading this keep in mind these are just the opinions of the strongly opinionated Byron, and I am not trying to start a flame war*

I think most vets will agree if asked that the first 6-8 months of GOIO was it's golden age. Even though the population was much smaller, the game itself was much more enjoyable and had an aura of a well developed game with a bright future. I think at that point any of us would have said the developers had good heads on their shoulders.

Flash forward to today, and I think that story is quite different for many of us. Ever since that first summer after GOIO's release we started seeing bad habits arise; heavy-handed and arbitrary nerfs or balance changes, little to no testing, the disastrous spawn system, match-making and ui releases. The seemingly random design directions that would stop at months at a time to chase a new project, only to drop that and go back to the previous project. The development of this game has gone from a promising start to aimless and frantic "shooting in the dark".

I am also aware from fireside chats and other sources that the development staff of GOIO has had quite a few turnovers, including artists and writers, which has lead to gaps and disconnects in the style and identity of the game.

So I had a musing (no pun intended)...was our original bar set too high? Was the game developed really well, and perhaps after losing a few individuals (and the rise of others) lost it's brilliance behind its design? I think we can all agree that the original game at release and even its concept is a beautiful one. I for one will always love anything steampunk, and especially anything airship and steampunk. But ever since release the quality of the game and it's development has been slowly but steadily gaining in a downward spiral. Perhaps it's like a painting; the concept of the painting is beautiful, but the artist got so focused on a few details that they lost focus on the whole piece and what it was originally.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Skrimskraw on May 03, 2015, 03:26:45 pm
maybe its because you played a large amount of hours and are now used to the game and its mechanics. Nothing seem new and you lost interest in the game as a whole because when it comes down to it, it is just a game.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Lanliss on May 03, 2015, 03:33:58 pm
A friend of mine compared goio to Princess Bride. It is a cult game, with niche gameplay. You cannot get the same thing anywhere else, but it is such a specific and unforgiving game that most either do not or cannot stick around. I already mentioned in a different section that it is possible, due to our low population, that those who play it right now are all naturals at it, to a degree. Maybe it took a while for some to pick up on the cues that others consider obvious, but at least they eventually learned. I think that most who left simply couldn't cut it in the world. This steep learning curve, combined with a mix of different art styles, makes it a very difficult game to pinpoint. I personally see it as one of the most competitive games out there, with most of the population playing competitively in one way or another.

To sum it all up, a very unique game. That makes it difficult to handle, because the devs cannot look anywhere for help, and must figure everything out on their own.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on May 03, 2015, 03:59:07 pm
maybe its because you played a large amount of hours and are now used to the game and its mechanics. Nothing seem new and you lost interest in the game as a whole because when it comes down to it, it is just a game.

For me it feels like the opposite. I loved the original mechanics and style, and I hate the changes. I was more interested in the game when it wasn't changing so drastically. But I am not burned out if thats what you're saying, I really want to play this game, it's just so hard to after seeing it being mistreated.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on May 03, 2015, 04:56:54 pm
Personally i think creating co-op mode was a mistake. I always wanted them to support their existing game more. Especially considering how limited the staff was and how it changed.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Crafeksterty on May 03, 2015, 04:59:53 pm
Quote
the game itself was much more enjoyable and had an aura of a well developed game with a bright future.
Ive read and heard lots of stories of those times.

I would not want to play in those times.

Too many things that if reverted would be game braking, nummingly dumb to have been implemented.
Heavy flaks ignoring armor?
One fire kicking people off guns?
with that, and crazy movement that pretty much made you not choose certain ships over others.


You are forgetting that they continuesly update on this game because they have
1. better ideas
2. other installments that add to the different modes of play (Coop, adventure).

They choose skirmish firstly, as it is barebones dependant on players. So content and mechanics of delivering the game doesnt need to worry too much on content keeping players playing. But it does gain content because... coop, which comes with AI and missions, a new way of playing the game as an expansion. And with everything developed in there leads too... Things developed in skirmish and coop, will be added and developed in adventure mode.

The skirmish mode changes because it will need to fit and play with in coop mode, its just Win-win. Test it there, development here.


Quote
I think that most who left simply couldn't cut it in the world. This steep learning curve, combined with a mix of different art styles, makes it a very difficult game to pinpoint.
I agree that goio is unique, but i also must say that goio fails to deliver a good starting ground for anyone that tries to play.

I played with a newbie who claims he hasnt played in a while (1 year ago) but he had only 6 matches, and he didnt know how to repair or where to fire the guns. I told him to go and do the tutorial and he refused. People who are "naturals" is not the case. This is simply the case of competant players versus incompatent casulz. It is a game made with competancy, however lacks forgiving incompetancy. "If you are an engineer, you repair when things are damaged as quick as possible" "A gunner hits his shots at the best of areas at the best of time" "Pilot flies and chooses the best of ship in the best of ways". But it doesnt forgive incompetancy such as "Simply flying and not going into practice to see how the guns work".

Its not a big learning curve wall, its a competancy wall. The learning curve for the fundementals is actually not big at all. But to master, goes narrowly deep. However, the game expects you to follow, which if you dont, makes things go really badly.

Quote
Personally i think creating co-op mode was a mistake. I always wanted them to support their existing game more. Especially considering how limited the staff was and how it changed.
Then adventure mode is a mistake? If there would be skirmish, and only skirmish. Then the game wouldnt get as much updates and the devs would want to hop into other projects. But for them, it is easier and perhaps more fun to build on their current project such as coop or adventure mode. THIS is their "other project" coop and adventure, which ties to skirmish and is why we get updates.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 03, 2015, 05:07:28 pm
Ships instantly exploding when hitting the ground... I am glad I missed that.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Carn on May 03, 2015, 05:25:48 pm
Though I didn't have the game back then I have heard the stories of course. The "more cloud update" was because double merc pyra was about the only meta played, heavy flaks being OP as hell. Perhaps your simply remembering through rose colored glasses, I dunno. It sounds like there was good and bad, depending on who I ask.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 03, 2015, 08:17:23 pm
I get you on so many levels Byron. Right now is probably the happiest I've been in GOIO for years just because Stamina enables a brief near 1.1 mode. It isn't full 1.1 but it gets about as close to it as I think we'll come with this design team. I love running matches and seeing people enjoying it. To see pilots loving it and maximizing it. Newer players suddenly becoming a tad bit harder to kill when they learn they have the power. It just...proves right some of the arguments I've been making ever since. I'd gladly enrage and alienate part of the community and make them all over again if it meant we had gotten them sooner. Sadly, people just didn't care enough to join in too. General consensus in matches every night for months was people wanted it back or at least wanted to experience it, but you could never get them to post. Even my own clan. They'd just sit back, nod their head, then watch silently from the sidelines. They'd bitch and moan every patch but generally wouldn't let Muse know. "Oh Gilder's got it, he'll argue for us!" Then they'd go on and play other games, only opening GOIO for practices or to see what new horrors Muse would inflict with each patch.

I wonder if Muse's development has been part scatterbrained because people just don't speak up. Then the ones that did all the time, they just started to ignore. Some of their design choices have clearly ignored the pleas of some of us. Heck I've felt multiple times that Muse just ignored or laughed at my arguments. Whether they did or didn't, still felt that way. The hint of sarcasm in their voices at times, wouldn't help.

I love Muse but I hate them at the same time. Part because of this development style which Byron speaks of. I hate that they seem to meander about in their focus. At times they push to the side, good ideas, in favor of ones that make you shake your head (MM). Then the Pyra has been the most patched ship in the game and is still on track to be perpetually the most patched ship. It's just one of those shake your head things because they can never seem to decide what to do with it. It always swings between OP and terrible.

But I also love that they dream big. They try to do what big box devs do with a tiny team. I respect that as its just what the VN team has been trying to do. Perhaps our goals are too lofty for us to do, but I still want to do them.

Fluke? No. GOIO is the only game of it's kind. Live or die by the team. But I do think GOIO has been balloon locked for awhile. Getting blended down. Some patches it manages to get away and rise for a moment, before getting blended again. What is worse is that most of the major problems which scared people away, happened during the huge sales. Each sale it was like a big goomba stomp. GOIO would become a hit, sell insanely well, then boom, blended + stomp. I think the last big sale was the only time we've really had a stable game. Trouble was, MM was keeping the balloon HP low to make sure it couldn't rise well. Now we're finally looking up again. GOIO is gaining momentum but I just can't help but wonder when the next pop will come?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dementio on May 03, 2015, 08:47:52 pm
The game has generally become better, but its developers were never good at making its players feel as if they were playing a better game.

What Crafek is talking about is, I believe, a general dumping down of culture. Games advertisement nowadays consists of "pretty colors" and "super cool features" only to turn out as a remake of an older game and only contain these promised features on a minimum level, if the game has any of them at all. This is not all of today's games, but people generally don't care as they only want to look at 80k graphics with a 0.5k monitor, shooty shoot 360 noscope and blame everybody else for losing when they do. It is also happening in movies and, if I read the "Anime discussion"-thread correctly, in animes too, to a certain degree. Even our everyday technology is feeling it.

Everything is a success when marketing sells it.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 10:59:33 am
Quote
Its not a big learning curve wall, its a competancy wall. The learning curve for the fundementals is actually not big at all. But to master, goes narrowly deep. However, the game expects you to follow, which if you dont, makes things go really badly.

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzxiyu8Btb1qj3i85.gif)
Title: What went wrong with GOIO
Post by: Mezhu on May 04, 2015, 11:46:47 am
Goio had the potential to be a truly unique game, not just in theme and setting, but in gameplay. It has all the necessary elements for a competitively successful game- easy to grab but without a skill ceiling, rewarding communication and tactical play. It had a meta that was flexible and not set-in-stone. People were always complaining about this or that being OP, but truth is that without any balance adjustment we had at least a year where different ships and builds became more or less prominent, simply due to people adjusting and improving.

I always thought that Muse should've promoted this aspect of the game more. Instead of silly youtube videos, with 'fun' online personas goofying around clueleslly, they could've taken the time to show how the game plays at a high level with promoted twitch streams, featured tournaments and utilities such as pov cameras, replays, pausing etc. The game was promoted to a sort of crowd that it naturally had no appeal to. We kept having huge population bursts with only a tiny bit staying, simply because they found the game to be nothing other than a PUG deathmatch where your own skill was largely irrelevant.

The features mentioned above did eventually come, but it was rather late. As with all games, players don't give second chances easily- especially so players that have already invested a lot of time and saw the game head towards a direction they didn't find appealing. Instead of crucial updates of this sort, as well as updates that actually offered new content to explore, experiment, and have fun with (such as new maps, modes, guns and ships), we got an endless series of self-canceling, largely unecessary balance updates and features. Maybe in an attempt to keep everyone happy, Muse has diverted their limited time and resources in getting many different things done instead of picking a specific direction, being bold with it and standing by it from start to end. The amount of ideas that were toyed without ever being properly implemented (or at implemented at all) is truly huge (gunner ammo, engineer tools, matchmaking, stamina, balance changes).

This last update, to me, makes even less sense than the rest. It nerfed mutliple guns (that were, mind you, deemed underwhelming in their exact same version some months ago), and then gave gunners the means to negate this. It gave pilots an omni-tool that largely destroyed the idea of specialization and counter-play that was prominent before. It gave engineers a totally out of place mechanic, that goes against the core element of timing your actions and being aware of your surroundings, by instead allowing you to sprint into position in a 20m2 environment (seriously..). It dumbed down the flamethrower and the flare (I can't help but wonder who was unable to properly use the flare or counter the flamethrower after 30h of gameplay- if someone's that bad at the game, you don't adjust the game to his/her lack of skill, you give him/her the means to improve). What I also fail to understand is who this update was even targeted towards- previous versions were more or less the absolute peak of balance the game's ever been at.

To answer your question, no, I don't think the GOIO's beginnings were as glorious as you try to present them as. Balance was terrible, bugs were common, population was low- I will agree though that were was a point in time when I too thought GOIO is a gem, temporarily hidden, which will eventually rise to the glory it deserves. And it truly is (was?) a gem, but any chances of it ever being received as such are gone. Most of the updates were to me a waste of resources. The game's essentially the same as it was 1 and a half year ago- equally small content, with random patches of irrelevant or badly implemented features here and there. I don't want to sound rude or harsh- I appreciate the game for what it is and I loved all of my 2,000 plus hours playing it. I recognize Muse had an extremely difficult task to perform, being an indie company and all. I just wish launching the game after a long break would feel me with joy (as all other games I grew attached to do) instead of give me a bitter feeling of regret.

I guess some of you are still having fun, though, and the update seems to be well-received to the current playerbase of 200, so that's good. Maybe GOIO has good things yet to say, just none that I'm willing to listen.

edit: Maybe it's unfair to blame this on Muse. Maybe it indeed is just the nature of the game and the state of the industry that hurt it. I honestly don't know.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on May 04, 2015, 12:24:16 pm
Quote
Most of the updates were to me a waste of resources. The game's essentially the same as it was 1 and a half year ago- equally small content, with random patches of irrelevant or badly implemented features here and there.

Nail on the head...Muse take note.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 12:29:01 pm
Honestly, this game is probably only alive because all the people that remained loyal to it. So instead of listening to them it seems Muse decided they wanted better sales than keeping their community which lifted them so much.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 02:29:55 pm
Honestly, this game is probably only alive because all the people that remained loyal to it. So instead of listening to them it seems Muse decided they wanted better sales than keeping their community which lifted them so much.


Match making
The active community changes a lot, thanks to those sales it brings it fresh people the retention rate is very low, so ask the question is why? One of the main complaints was Match time/ lobby time hence MM and forced timers to start a match,

Plus MM also deals with the lag issues and reports not only does it reduce lag on the servers because it took alot to constantly update the list especially when high volume of players, remember forced starts to matches? even though lag is still present for some,but no where near as much, and MM in theory will match players quicker than scrolling down through matches one person hops in then tells the rest to join on this lobby before someone else,

But with the low count in players it takes a while atm, and we know that it was intended for high volume of players with varying MMR which can only be achieved when we have a high number of players, and to get that we need promotion and sales,

an online indie game that's been around since late 2012, and is still actively rolling out patches and working towards content, good or bad the dedication is their, and of course it would not of happened with out the core people, 2000+ matches and 1000+ hours, who have been through it all, good and bad but believe me, everything gets read talked about but we have to look from different perspectives of both new and old players and obviously everyone is not going to be happy, 

I started of as a player picking this up in the sale went through comp scenes and ca road up till where i am now, just like Keyvias and meta originally did, people do understand but it is catering to everyone that the balance gets upset,

ship nerfs
Needed to happen gat mortar pyra kills under 6 seconds and anyone can pick it up and use it, 200m charges through open ground balloon shielding hydro up boom dead, and that was not balanced. Problem was it was so powerful the majority including myself used it all the time, people would laugh if you took a spire or a mobula, you were ram bait and a fool!! unless you were a certain GWTH player :P or your name is daniel :) , not now spires get used and mobulas to brawl and win alot more, in one of the recent releases on the website we showed the win ratio and the play rate of ships pyra was up their so it got tweaked, it can however be tweaked back if it gets underpowered where you can't win at all but it takes time,


feedback
With changes comes new metas  and people might hate it but keeps it fresh to a degree until the next one comes around and its tweaked again, but yes a large focus is going to be on new players, because that is what a game constantly needs, and i am sorry it feels like the vets are forgotten that is not the case, maybe holding a community skype call  with a mix of players will work to get calm feedback like in this thread, rather than MUSE SUCKS RUINING THE GAME, because that is never anyones intention, people work hard and to have it all in ruins and for nothing doesn't serve any purpose,



So this is just my unofficial 2 cents to try and explain best i can decisions and reasons, and if i don't know i will find out, because the core players are leaving the familiar faces i am use to seeing are no longer here and the frustration is clear, but with communication i think some of this can be resolved, and maybe players will come back in time, but i know personally i don't want to see the vets leave or to have anyone think bad intentions if their is somthing i can at least do or say,

Thanks Grey
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Carn on May 04, 2015, 03:23:03 pm
One thing to remember is that, like every company, they need to make a profit to survive. I'm am so thankful that GoIO isn't a subscription or a pay to win game. But those are two popular ways to make revenue. They need those sales to make profit. Yes plenty of the new players don't stay, but some do. And they are more likely to buy stuff in the store. For those who say that it is not their job to encourage new players, then your willing to let this game die. If MUSE can't make enough money, then they won't be able to maintain this game. Hence, the sales, to 1) bring in new players, and 2) make profit.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 03:58:36 pm
One thing to remember is that, like every company, they need to make a profit to survive. I'm am so thankful that GoIO isn't a subscription or a pay to win game. But those are two popular ways to make revenue. They need those sales to make profit. Yes plenty of the new players don't stay, but some do. And they are more likely to buy stuff in the store. For those who say that it is not their job to encourage new players, then your willing to let this game die. If MUSE can't make enough money, then they won't be able to maintain this game. Hence, the sales, to 1) bring in new players, and 2) make profit.
Don't forget they had a Kickstarter which reached over $200,000. If they need to take such drastic measures to maintain a somewhat good income then that Kickstarter was more Irrational than Pi.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 04:00:32 pm
Don't forget they had a Kickstarter which reached over $200,000. If they need to take such drastic measures to maintain a somewhat good income then that Kickstarter was more Irrational than Pi.

drastic measures? can i ask what you are referring to please?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:01:33 pm
Don't forget they had a Kickstarter which reached over $200,000. If they need to take such drastic measures to maintain a somewhat good income then that Kickstarter was more Irrational than Pi.

drastic measures? can i ask what you are referring to please?

As in, adding completely unasked for features which mostly benefit new players in such a way they have a better experience. Except, said feature doesn't require as much effort.




Next up: Let's add mods that you can instantly download to your game, made by the community, of which you have to pay for.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 04:11:26 pm
As in, adding completely unasked for features which mostly benefit new players in such a way they have a better experience. Except, said feature doesn't require as much effort.

am assuming you are referring to MM and Ui changes,

Match making was always going to happen, i think when the ps4 crossover was discussed so ps4 users didn't have to scroll down endless matches on a list, and it was streamlined for newer players also who basically didn't know what they were doing or looking for, and kept asking how to make up servers and games then no one would join, Match making helps the system and provides a streamline experience on paper, like i said in previous post it is intended for high volume of players which is always a hope and should be prepared for, because during spikes it is everyone who suffers due to lag and confusion mainly.

The new Ui was for stamina and hasn't been out long enough to get a response from everyone who plays to see if it helps newer players, but in the next few days no doubt it will get feedback and may or may not be tweaked, it has been out less than a week, nothing starts out perfect continuous improvement will happen, and i don't understand how adding a new feature to game play recently a new heavy weapon and a easier way for everyone to find a match is drastic or only for new players?

custom games and a list still exsist so you never need to join mm you can make a game recruit from global or open up to queue if you prefer to wait in a lobby rather than in a queue, and the ui is getting mixed reviews but as stated above may or may not change, its main focus is to make things visual and help,
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:15:20 pm
MM? No, MM's *just* Bearable. It's still terrible, but it works.

Stamina is completely unneeded and unasked for. It only helps Newer players, and, probably barely helps at that. I wouldn't know, I stopped playing.

UI changes are completely asinine. I already addressed everything wrong with it *all of it* in my Other thread (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6137.0.html)
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 04:17:48 pm
did you stop playing because of stamina update? and the ui change?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:18:14 pm
did you stop playing because of stamina update? and the ui change?

Stamina, yes.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Crafeksterty on May 04, 2015, 04:19:21 pm
Stamina is completely unneeded and unasked for. It only helps Newer players, and, probably barely helps at that. I wouldn't know, I stopped playing.
ok then

Ive had people ingame say "The ui seems so much cleaner now".
And the UI to me doesnt bother me much.

I dont know what to explain because i see no problems. I had problems with the previous UI but ive come costum to it.
Now we have a new UI. Ok, and it adds to the gameplay in some areas.

This feels alot like facebook update complaints.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 04:21:45 pm
did you stop playing because of stamina update? and the ui change?

Stamina, yes.

Can i ask why please?

You don't need to use it, it is just a feature that can be used to provide short bursts of assistance? do you think it is too much of an advantage for people who do and you choose not to?

also lastly why do you hate it enough to stop playing?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:30:18 pm
did you stop playing because of stamina update? and the ui change?

Stamina, yes.

Can i ask why please?

You don't need to use it, it is just a feature that can be used to provide short bursts of assistance? do you think it is too much of an advantage for people who do and you choose not to?

also lastly why do you hate it enough to stop playing?

It completely destroys the point of working together, communication, proper skill usage, and Management skills.

If a gunner is out of arc, he should inform his captain, not just use his Drug-levels of physics abuse.
If an Engineer is so bad he can't time his hits right and cries so much about getting to the hull a second too late, making him die, than he should get better or get out.
If a pilot is whining about skills hurting his oh-so-precious engines or said skills not being good enough, obviously he can't actually use them.

If you'll notice, all of those are skill-based.

Of course, nowadays Video Games are basically "If I'm not good at it, it's too hard" so why not turn this into a game where you cannot possibly lose?

I'd much rather prefer some getting used to actual work than everyone getting someone to hold their hand.


Also I remember this game being about teamwork, right? I mean, all of the Stamina usages are completely useless if you actually used teamwork. In which case Stamina is basically just a bump in the ceiling to make 100%proswag360noscopeplayers even better.

TL;DR I prefer using skill over more crutches. It's getting awfully hard to find games that use teamwork nowadays.

Guess I'll just keep playing Verdun forever now.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Crafeksterty on May 04, 2015, 04:34:48 pm
That is the most whiny comments ive seen in for this update. And it is completely unjustified.
Not only dont you know because you dont play. None of the things you said are true!

Gunners STILL ask for arcs.
Engineers STILL have a problem with timing in areas.
Pilots STILL have to use tools and sacrifice component health.

If you think that stamina made people rambos, then be my guest and go full AI ship against a competant crew.
Nothing really changed, just added.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:37:10 pm
That is the most whiny comments ive seen in for this update. And it is completely unjustified.
Not only dont you know because you dont play. None of the things you said are true!

Gunners STILL ask for arcs.
Engineers STILL have a problem with timing in areas.
Pilots STILL have to use tools and sacrifice component health.

If you think that stamina made people rambos, then be my guest and go full AI ship against a competant crew.
Nothing really changed, just added.

Oh, now the screaming like children.

You know, this situation is awfully similar to what the forums were in other games that took this path.

Of course, said path led to death.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 04:43:48 pm
You honestly believe a 5 second stamina usage breaks the game to the point you don't need teamwork? am sorry you feel that way however i strongly disagree,


 il be honest here i played i think 10 matches today roughly i used stamina one match consistently as a reload speed up for manticore, as a gunner and thats it haha.

and i still talked to my crew about arcs reload time ammo and the co captain to do flanks and focus fire,

also as the fact it is a crutch its a new mechanic that when used properly can get you out of some situations i am already seeing posts about engineer speed being useful and being able to do things before that couldn't with buff and chem rotations, and gunner reload on manticore and carro are usful for rof increase compared to rebuild, but that is at the highest level of game play at the lower end new players might see it as a fun mechanic to use, jump run and hit faster is great!! type of attitude, and thats the main point the game should be fun to the new players and am sorry you feel that way,

i can put suggestions acrosss next meeting about ways to help with the ui maybe a option to revert back to classic but i can't see it happening because stamina needs a new bar,
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 04:49:17 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dementio on May 04, 2015, 05:18:42 pm
Stamina and UI changes isn't what makes Guns of Icarus Online, Guns of Icarus Online. Muse stated there will be changes to UI, after enough justified complaints, they even intend to make it customizable, a little at least, better than nothing. Stamina is a feature added on top of it all, adding a tini tiny bit of depth to the never ending abyss of complexity this game offers and Muse will change it or even remove it if enough feedback is given. I heard Muse wanted to remove the Mine Launcher from the game, simply because nobody used it, but I don't see anybody complaining about anything about this gun.

People that say they leave the game, because of a patch lie. They already didn't want to continue playing the game anymore for whatever other reason and a new patch always seems to be the perfect excuse. I don't like the new UI, I also think that features like Stamina are more wasted resources than anything and I am also against some more stuff that the latest patch changed or added. But I still like the game, the people that play the game and I will keep on playing and learn how to play with the latest version of the game, because deep down at its core, Guns of Icarus Online is still Guns of Icarus Online.


ship nerfs
Needed to happen gat mortar pyra kills under 6 seconds and anyone can pick it up and use it, 200m charges through open ground balloon shielding hydro up boom dead, and that was not balanced. Problem was it was so powerful the majority including myself used it all the time, people would laugh if you took a spire or a mobula, you were ram bait and a fool!! unless you were a certain GWTH player :P
After all my Mobula-ing, you hurt my feelings.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 05:20:42 pm
i am sorry Dementio edited :)
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dementio on May 04, 2015, 05:24:02 pm
...unless you were a certain GWTH player :P or your name is daniel :)

 :D, but who is Dementio?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 05:25:53 pm
Stamina and UI changes isn't what makes Guns of Icarus Online, Guns of Icarus Online. Muse stated there will be changes to UI, after enough justified complaints, they even intend to make it customizable, a little at least, better than nothing. Stamina is a feature added on top of it all, adding a tini tiny bit of depth to the never ending abyss of complexity this game offers and Muse will change it or even remove it if enough feedback is given. I heard Muse wanted to remove the Mine Launcher from the game, simply because nobody used it, but I don't see anybody complaining about anything about this gun.

People that say they leave the game, because of a patch lie. They already didn't want to continue playing the game anymore for whatever other reason and a new patch always seems to be the perfect excuse. I don't like the new UI, I also think that features like Stamina are more wasted resources than anything and I am also against some more stuff that the latest patch changed or added. But I still like the game, the people that play the game and I will keep on playing and learn how to play with the latest version of the game, because deep down at its core, Guns of Icarus Online is still Guns of Icarus Online.


ship nerfs
Needed to happen gat mortar pyra kills under 6 seconds and anyone can pick it up and use it, 200m charges through open ground balloon shielding hydro up boom dead, and that was not balanced. Problem was it was so powerful the majority including myself used it all the time, people would laugh if you took a spire or a mobula, you were ram bait and a fool!! unless you were a certain GWTH player :P
After all my Mobula-ing, you hurt my feelings.
I think you're missing the point with your spiritual crap.

Also, I did legitimately leave because Stamina and the UI.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 04, 2015, 05:47:43 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 05:52:34 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: GreyTea on May 04, 2015, 06:03:24 pm
Their is no need to insult other forum users or provoke, am here to listen to feedback and reasons and help best i can so people don't feel ignored or forgotten about, and i have heard you and i am sorry you feel like that, however its not in my power to remove stamina  as for the ui as i stated it could changed in a later update i would not like to commit to saying it will be, but i have brought it up that their are people who think it can be done cleaner and better,
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Netheron on May 04, 2015, 06:07:00 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more and basically just call everyone fucking gays.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 04, 2015, 06:57:44 pm
He just wants to burn all his bridges on leaving. Not uncommon. Seen the behavior many times in guilds. Either someone leaves with grace, just fades out quietly, or goes on a tantrum till forced out. The plus side of a tantrum player is that if they ever want to come back, they'll be excluded by everyone because no one will trust them again. Let him dig his own grave.

If you played COOP mode, you'd notice that Stamina is pretty necessary for it. There is no way the snail slow ships we currently have could have handled COOP without stamina. You could but you'd be struggling.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 07:00:00 pm
I created a survey about the update.

http://goo.gl/forms/Fi96qx41wh

I'm curious what the data will tell so I'll post it here too.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 04, 2015, 07:06:34 pm
That form won't be accurate because you have questions which only dev app testers would be able to answer accurately. Those that don't test can make up whatever they want. Stamina was well tested and balanced before it went live. It wasn't a spur of the moment idea.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 07:18:28 pm
That form won't be accurate because you have questions which only dev app testers would be able to answer accurately. Those that don't test can make up whatever they want. Stamina was well tested and balanced before it went live. It wasn't a spur of the moment idea.

sometimes getting info from the common folk might be useful gilder.


Also here's a thought. Making things easier, doesn't necessarily mean better. Adding more complexity, doesn't necessarily mean depth.
People have nostalgia for simpler times because at the very core, what was important was getting better at what is essentially a simple game of teamwork.

Now continuing your bitching.


No matter how games get more complex and have more graphics. I will always play a quick game of chess at some point in my life, as I always have.

As well as visit the local arcade to play some rhythm games.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 07:22:08 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Netheron on May 04, 2015, 07:23:45 pm
It is a side effect of text, tone is hard to detect.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: James T. Kirk on May 04, 2015, 07:29:50 pm
Hey everyone.

I'm here to apologize for David. As long as he wears that tag, he's representative of my clan.
I wish not to derail the topic any further, so I'll keep this brief, but I hope any players reading this that are unfamiliar with Cake do not associate this behavior with me, my officers, any of my other members, or the clan as a whole.

It's actually quite the opposite of our purpose.
We have a zero tolerance policy for hate speech, and strongly discourage 'noob shaming.' He will be ejected from the clan as soon as I am done posting this.
David, if you wish to discuss this with me, you have multiple ways of contacting me privately. Please do so if you desire.

To be clear, he is not being kicked due to his opinions, but rather his crude way of presenting them.

Again, apologies to everyone here.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 07:31:50 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 04, 2015, 07:42:57 pm
Conditioned to like it? You wanna tell us all what you're smoking because if you have dev app access you'd know none of us were conditioned to like it. We've all shared plenty of concerns as the process went. Heck the original form of stamina was a bit nuts. Gunners were able to shoot straight up or straight down with all guns on it. We all spoke out on that. If you don't believe it then apply to join dev app and add your own input. Its pretty easy to get in. Muse hands out codes like candy.

If you want the "common people" to do your little survey then you need to get it listed in game because its pretty clear you'll only get very skewed results on the forums here. Especially when you word questions clearly towards dev app testers, not "common" folk.

Its a fresh new idea, the first real gameplay oriented one Muse has done in 2yrs. It was pretty clear it would be a benefit to the gameplay as a whole with only realism nuts going on crusades against it. Everyone wants gunners viable but no one ever agrees on how to do it. Literally stamina came as a result of about 2yrs of Muse considering ways to solve the problem. When considering that, they did a damn good job coming up with something like this without going into talent trees or passive buffs/etc that wouldn't really change anything.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: DJ Logicalia on May 04, 2015, 08:06:51 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.

What is the distinction you're drawing between players and testers? If you want to be a tester just go grab a dev app key for yourself.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: David Dire on May 04, 2015, 08:14:34 pm
Hey everyone.

I'm here to apologize for David. As long as he wears that tag, he's representative of my clan.
I wish not to derail the topic any further, so I'll keep this brief, but I hope any players reading this that are unfamiliar with Cake do not associate this behavior with me, my officers, any of my other members, or the clan as a whole.

It's actually quite the opposite of our purpose.
We have a zero tolerance policy for hate speech, and strongly discourage 'noob shaming.' He will be ejected from the clan as soon as I am done posting this.
David, if you wish to discuss this with me, you have multiple ways of contacting me privately. Please do so if you desire.

To be clear, he is not being kicked due to his opinions, but rather his crude way of presenting them.

Again, apologies to everyone here.

Actually I was planning to eject myself from the clan and basically lock my profile up game-wise, but, that works too.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 08:46:10 pm
I just sai- Okay, you know what? Fine, Stamina and the UI change is totally the best thing to ever be added to this game. However I've sadly come down with a case of "GoIO uninstalled" so, sadly, maybe I'll be able to see all of you again, but, till that moment where this incurable disease is fixed, I'll just go do something else.

Good! More fun for us. Bye then!

Nah, I think I'll go into provoking more.

David, that helps your cause not at all. I personally am with you on the UI change. I think it was a pretty bad change, but I left those comments in the appropriate thread. In terms of stamina, meh... It just feels unnecessary to me. Its just something the game didn't need, and I wish development time spent on that would have gone toward the completion of Co-op. However, I was too shy to speak my mind, and so this has come to pass. If we want this issue fixed, we need to use collected and logical arguments to support our side, not sporadic attacks and insults (this applies to both sides of the argument).

Apparently you people can't take jokes.





Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Muse is working on Co-Op why are they suddenly pulling ideas for their game out of their asses and putting it in despite numerous levels of feedback telling them to not put it in?

My impression is like so:

Muse: so we have this new feature we wanna put in. We're just gonna put it into dev app to see what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we're going to be running some tests on this new feature for this in dev app and tweaking around with it.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: After weeks of work and conditioning, I think it's ready to go into the game.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: After many tests I think we have perfected this new feature and putting it on the new update.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Muse: So we just added the new feature. Go right ahead and tell us what you think.

Players: boooo go away just balance the game you already got.

Testers: Hey this feature has been thoroughly tested and we've been conditioned to like it through long hours of using it.

*today.


Its my impression. Dunno if its accurate. But its what I presume I saw and see.

What is the distinction you're drawing between players and testers? If you want to be a tester just go grab a dev app key for yourself.

weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.

kinda like soccer moms. Your child could be the spawn of satan in the eyes of many people, but that child is your baby. He's a positive angel to you.




as for you gilder.

I do have the dev app and I have tested it. But thats besides the point. I detested it from the conceptual stage. No matter how I tried to fit the circle shaped block into the star shaped hole, it just didn't seem like it fit.

And inb4 it was just some bias of your own preconceived notions. No. I tested it. I thought about its place in the game. My conclusion? No. Just no.

But thats not gonna stop tests from continuing though. It will go on regardless.





Heres a comparison of a good change and a bad change.

the new reload mechanics? FANTASTIC. utterly brilliant. everyone uses it and I have no heard a single complain.

The stamina system? You're felt like you need to use it as a gunner due to a few gun nerfs (you can't aim down without it on heavy carronade). That kinda forcing people's hands to accept it.


the changes made by your testing is simply sanding down that circular block to fit the star shaped hole. But does it fit? It goes through right?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: DJ Logicalia on May 04, 2015, 10:14:26 pm


weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.


No it fucking doesn't. Look, man, I'm a psych major, and while I have't yet graduated, I know a thing or two about the brain and how people react to shit like testing. Psychologists do it all the time. How the hell do you think anyone learns bloody anything? Nothing works like how you're describing. Absolutely nothing. If you give me one piece of research that backs up your asinine claims, I'll uninstall the game.

I think I understand your issue here. You have an aversion to facts. Testing? Who needs testing? What's testing even going to do, give you information about this mechanic you're so furious about? Give you the ability to provide informed and helpful feedback? Pfft. Who needs that! Just talk like an ass about things you have no knowledge about, that's sure to help improve the game. Coast on your elitism and and act like you're above everyone else until something happens that you can get pissed about, even though you provide no positive benefits to this community what so ever.

You do you, Maxy.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 04, 2015, 10:39:22 pm
I actually emailed MUSE the night before the update practically begging them not to put certain things in. I was there from day one of stamina testing. My opinion never changed, and still has not. It is fun, but will be bad for new players. I knew they were putting way too much effort into it to simply drop it, so spent those weeks trying to give as much feedback as possible to soften the edges. The results show. Though I am still not happy with the results, I am proud of having shaped them. Perhaps we will see some of the other ideas I peddled.

The UI was the main reason for the last minute email. They have shown interest in some of my suggestions, and have passed them on to the art team.

The nerf to heavy clip was my strong suggestion, and I still think it a good one (with the addition of a few other things they left out).

So, ya. Logicalia is right. You are wrong, again. :)
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on May 04, 2015, 11:01:20 pm


weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  bias opinion of it.


No it fucking doesn't. Look, man, I'm a psych major, and while I have't yet graduated, I know a thing or two about the brain and how people react to shit like testing. Psychologists do it all the time. How the hell do you think anyone learns bloody anything? Nothing works like how you're describing. Absolutely nothing. If you give me one piece of research that backs up your asinine claims, I'll uninstall the game.

Here lies the double edged blade.

So as a major you should be aware of Psychology's history as failure of a "natural science." Fruedian psychology for decades caused horrible damage on the credibility to the field with its purely anecdotal/case study thesis. And sadly many schools of psychology still use this.

As a psych major I assume you are referencing the more modern empirical method. By which referenced by JB Watson (I know very old reference), psychology at the time (mainly referencing the behaviourist school) fails to truly be testable due to the presumption of the LACK the existence of free will or individuality (the observer effect being a possible factor in iffy test results by my conjecture). Or to paraphrase mainly to the immaterial nature of the field where nothing is solidly provable like chemistry or physics, it can't really be seen as a natural science.

So frankly any paper or report in psychology should really be taken with a grain of salt.

As for any paper? My knowledge of psyche is about the level of a layman. So please cite me some sources that you can say with 100% certainty that disproves classical conditioning. Reference a circumstance of  psychological behaviour that has a near 95+% reproduction rate.

Because if you want to talk FACTS here. You better have some.




As for you lemoon. So just because you softened the blow... means the blow is still not a reason to be outraged over? Not that I'm not ungrateful or anything.  :P
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: BlackenedPies on May 04, 2015, 11:25:04 pm
Muse can have stamina in their game if they want. If new players like it then I'm for it. Complaints don't help suggestions do.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Admiral Obvious on May 04, 2015, 11:49:15 pm
I have always felt stamina was more of a fun element to the game rather than any attempt of player gameplay-overhaul. It really leaves minimal impact as to the ending result of the game, an its just fun! That being said, for the gunner it is a huge help, so my previous statement more applies to pilot and engie.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Ayetach on May 05, 2015, 12:18:21 am
There are a few posts that concern me so I'm going to make it very clear to all the posters here that we do follow the community standards here like we do in-game. Lets avoid unnecessary provocations & disrespectful remarks and stick to the constructive criticism - I don't mind the lively discussions on matters regarding the game but again lets keep the inflammatory remarks to a minimum irrespective of who you are. Thanks! ^^

Just incase someone needs a reference here's a link to the Community Standards (http://gunsoficarus.com/community-standards/) so that we are clear on our conduct as posters.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Piemanlives on May 05, 2015, 02:31:12 am
I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

People, this is going to cross the line eventually and before it does I'd like to remind you all that there are people watching this thread and are none too pleased with it.

First off thanks to my fellow CA's for trying to keep the peace. Secondly, shame on all of you who have taken the argument this far.

-snip-
-Snip-

Also this argument has literally nothing to do with the subject at hand, please take this discussion to PM's so none of us have to deal with it.

If this thread is to remain open we need to take the hostility down a few notches and discuss this like adults, I can't see why we have to be so rude to one another over someones take on the matter, all it does is foster a divide within the community and that was never something that could end well, those of you who have been around long enough know what I'm talking about.

Sure you have opinions about the matter, but if all it boils down to is saying "You don't agree with me so now you're an idiot" this will remain as unproductive as it has become and we'll keep going in circles till the end of time.

Also hi, to those of you who don't know me I do exist, to those who do know me I still exist.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Omniraptor on May 05, 2015, 03:51:51 am
I actually emailed MUSE the night before the update practically begging them not to put certain things in. I was there from day one of stamina testing. My opinion never changed, and still has not. It is fun, but will be bad for new players. I knew they were putting way too much effort into it to simply drop it, so spent those weeks trying to give as much feedback as possible to soften the edges. The results show. Though I am still not happy with the results, I am proud of having shaped them. Perhaps we will see some of the other ideas I peddled.

The UI was the main reason for the last minute email. They have shown interest in some of my suggestions, and have passed them on to the art team.

The nerf to heavy clip was my strong suggestion, and I still think it a good one (with the addition of a few other things they left out).

So, ya. Logicalia is right. You are wrong, again. :)

That was you richard? It was a good suggestion of game design ammo effects should not be quite so drastic as to be required, and heavy clip was required. But still YOU (helped) break my favorite toy [cry].

As for putting 'too much effort' into something, try emailing muse an article about the sunk cost fallacy, I am sure they will appreciate it :P

The real question is, did you know it was the night before an update? how?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: ZnC on May 05, 2015, 08:08:51 am
I believe the biggest problem with stamina is that it goes against the simplicity of the game. A new core mechanic can add depth to the game, but the important thing is if it's fun. Otherwise, it would decrease the focus on already enjoyable game elements and upset players.

Omniraptor mentioned something in the past which has since became my favourite GOIO quote: "GOI is a very elegant/simple game, because everything interacts with everything else in a predictable and consistent manner. The fun comes from positioning and mastery of gunnery/repair."

Also, discussions are to share ideas and talk through them, not to convince other people that they are wrong. If you know that you are absolutely right, good; keep it to yourself. Personally though, I would never reply to anyone with a page in my "doesn't think deeply" or "absolute moron" book.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 05, 2015, 08:10:53 am
I was testing in dev app and was told by someone there that those changes were going live in the morning. I thought they were joking. I was actually already writing the email and was halfway done before I was told. I may have gotten a little hostile in my words after hearing that (I did apologize).

I do try to test things out in devapp as often as I can and give helpful critiques. I have been on dev teams before (as a writer), and understand the effect of players' frustrated yelling on dev motivation and interaction with the community. Basically, the more toxic the community, the less the devs listen. I was one of the few that would still sift through the raging dross to find the valid feedback. What you do learn as well as that the loudest and most hostile people are not often representative of the greater silent population.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mod Josie on May 05, 2015, 08:25:06 am
I have made a change to a post containing some hate speech and modified quotes containing said post. Just a brief though probably moot reminder of our community standards (http://gunsoficarus.com/community-standards/). Please ensure to post under the guidelines in the future.

I would also like to echo Piemanlives' comments on the direction that this discussion has taken. Muse's decision process is based on feedback from the moment that an idea is available for testing. Presenting productive and well thought-out suggestions to the team has the power to make a big difference. As Richard mentioned previously, he has been in regular correspondence with us over the patch recently and has been incredibly helpful. Props go out to you, Richard.


As for the original question posed in this thread: I do not believe that GoIO was a fluke in the literal sense. One could suggest that any indie game that makes it big managed it because the stars were aligned correctly on the day of release. Some games are produced on massive budgets and are fated for success due to hype, marketing and a big brand-name; other games have to lead a harder life in order to gain notability.
GoIO, and FoTI before it, presented a fascinating new setting with relatively novel mechanics and a dev team who has often been put on record as being exemplary listeners who have fostered a wonderful community. As time draws on and GoIO continues to develop, it is natural that changes will need to be made and this will include difficult decisions. In order to keep growing and allow the game's continued support, the dev team find themselves in zugzwang as they continue to run Skirmish mode while fulfilling their AM kickstarter agreement and attempt a push onto PS4 release. These actions will involve preparing the production game for these necessary changes. MM is one of these changes, allowing PS4 users (when integrated) to filter into our already existing population, while also increasing the match system's efficiency and expedience in getting PC players into matches right now.

Stamina is another of these areas which we are exploring. Its initial design wasn't up to scratch which is why, based on testers' crucial feedback, we withheld it and waited to release it when it was more stable and more representative of the gameplay we were aiming for. In-game, and in our feedback inbox, Stamina appears to be being received generally well. A lot of players are pleased with the way that this has shaken up gameplay without massively affecting the core tone of our game's premise and previous mechanics. I daresay that these people, satisfied with the changes, have less motive to check the forums for dissent than those who are unhappy. That being said, even the unhappy voices don't all agree on a large number of the issues at hand. It is an impossible task to make 100% of people happy when there is more than one opinion present in a demographic.
Agreement is relatively unanimous on the UI front and we are taking quick steps to reviewing our current build for the UI. Hopefully this will come about swiftly and cheer us all up a bit.

Well, that's my lunch break dealt with. I guess I'll get back to work!
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: MagKel on May 05, 2015, 09:45:12 am
I am going to post a wall of text, yay!  :D and no Tl:dr too!  :P

I like GOIO, I play GOIO and there is people here that can testify I spend way too much time explaining stuff to scrubs than checking my loadout. Heck my pyra was named Noob Academy for a reason. Still if I have to play it lately, it is only clan or friends because of time constrains and I see the amount of damage stacked ships can deal to the new players. The Underdog mechanic should be better explained with a lenghty popup, btw.

So, I spied some steam raw data and I found some interesting numbers about our precious game/community/concept/religion.

GOIO is a product, made by a game studio to bridge the first GOI to the new GOI. As a video game the objective is the entertainment of the people of today, not yesterday, not tomorrow. Today. This way it is going to sell and pay the bills of the studio. GOIO never took off, will never take off and is more of a economic resource for the development of GOI than else.

Right now the biggest problem is: how to make the game fun for sufficient time that buyer A will ask buyer B, C and D to buy it so that they can be awesome in the sky and join the other 774,634 ± 22,360 players [931,664 (± 24,514) owners]?

How long will they play it? hh:mm 09:12 (average) 03:46 (median), which is, oh the irony, one of the lowest in the industry for multiplayer only games. There are many reasons for that and most probably the main reason is that GOIO can be no fun at all. With other games you can have varying degrees of fun, in GOIO you can actually pretty quickly get into negative fun.  We all know why and the different NO-fun elements in today's GOIO account for the fact that almost a million owners of GOIO never played for more than 3 hours or played at all.

When MUSE talks about the veterans (±500) being a small niche, it is really very very small. Ridiculously small.

So what do we get from this? We have a product that is at the level of Risk of Rain, Stanley Parable, Banished, World of Goo in terms of sales (top 100 out of 2400 indie games), yet in terms of game hours is ±750th, surrounded either by trash or single player games. How is it possible?

The current generation of teenagers that have time to devote to the game and maybe a superficial curiosity of steampunk might be attracted to GOIO, which is why it is still selling after so many years. Yet server population never takes off. Almost a million people essentially left some money at MUSE, said "be right back" and never showed up again. Good for us, thanks to these buyers we still get to play the game.

But if you were MUSE, what would you do of this thread, of the whole forum? GOIO sells through some high profile sponsors such as Angry Joe, some cool aesthetics that are unmatched, a game structure that has no competitors in the industry and the promise that it will be fun. Fun like all the other underdog indie multiplayer games that try to shoot for the stars.

 Does it sell because people want the honor of flying against a Ryder ship? Or be part of Ceresbane's AI, Cake, Ducks, Gents or any other historical clan? I'll answer for you: no, they don't. they don't care. They want to fly a ship, shoot with a gun and jump around goofing, while having fun. This is the essence of every game and it makes all of us very mad that they want to do it.

Can they really do it today? NO, THEY DON'T because the game has the flaw of letting you do what you want (it took this long to change the code and make the pilot class unavailable as a crew member, this long) even if by not thinking ahead you can't have fun. And I am not talking about clan stomping, I am talking about those matches where no one of us is present, zero experience and training, all levels 10-20 with engineers carrying kerosene and ships hitting the trade winds. i entered some of those games, I ended up flying with two gunners a flakfish with an allied carro galleon against a double flak pira and a squid in the map dawn. No-Fun-At-All. The much vaunted novice matches are an exercise of frustration. Yet MUSE as a responsible company tries to make a profit and keeps shooting for the stars, I salute the effort and I want you to succeed. Adventure Mode is the dream of MUSE, not a perfect GOIO, yet they still need this game to make a wage and keep working.

I I arrived in this community very late, I might say toward the end of the cycle. It feels like a sitcom at the end of a very long list of theater seasons where all the character arches are explored, all the things that could be done has been already done (amazing tournaments with more than 3 teams? Forget it) and yet casual viewers are still keeping the product on air. Some people changed career and went doing something else, some just log in now and then.

The problem is that the few that still log in and play as a clan can't have adequate opponents and stomp the other side, adding an unexpected element of No-Fun-At-All. MM and all the other gizmos that are being added are designed to ease the game of new players but fail  with a low online population that is absolutely not representative of the real numbers.It is only thanks to friendships and a general appreciation of the developers toward the stable, veteran community that some things are changed, but don't expect them to go in your direction: MUSE aim is not to make the game more fun for the people who know the game and played more than 1000 matches; instead is to remove the No-Fun elements that make the game one of the most owned and least played of the indies. And it is not unfair, it is not cruel, it is not derived by some hate of the developers toward the veteran's community. It is a business necessity, the strongest and most important motivation you can bring to the desk of a production manager. if game is No-Fun for some inherent mechanics, those mechanics must be changed so that the majority likes the game and plays more.

Remember, like it or not GOIO is the bridge built by MUSE for another game, it was never meant to be something as important as some people consider it here. With the failure of FotI the people there had to decide what to do with their lives, move on or keep shooting for the stars. All the assets were converted into a PvP that kept the boat floating this long but the adventure game, the coop gamemode is what MUSE wanted since day one and it is something we will all wildly enjoy since it will remove many No-Fun elements that today plague GOIO.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on May 05, 2015, 09:54:50 am
Regarding the Thread title: No this wasn't the first cult game mus has made -Flight of Icarus (formerly known as Guns of Icarus) was a cult game.

As for op's post: I see some people are still pining for the fjords. I'm not, I've been playing since 1.1.2 (witch I believe introduced Lumberjack) - I've played days on end (and that's not an exaggeration) in pre 1.1.4 days. Mostly competitive practice for Claiming of The Fjords tournament. That game is far better balanced now than it was back in those days. There is far less bugs, far better game engine optimization, far more viable ships and builds (no small part because of new weapons and a new ship), more tools. Spectator tools aren't crap any-more (just watch the recordings from Claiming of the Fjords - the videos had all the spectator ui possible, half of the matches you couldn't see ballistic projectiles like flak shots or the score). Matchmaking is great (least of the benefits, is that blame for 5-0 the other team is not your fault, if your team all queued), I think even stamina is great, because it makes gunners and pilots more encouraged than before. Considering how quickly it drains in comparison to how long it takes to refill, I think it's balanced, it does not replace teamwork or skill. But it does compliment it.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on May 05, 2015, 10:06:53 am
Wait what?
.... With the failure of FotI the people there had to decide what to do with their lives, move on or keep shooting for the stars. All the assets were converted into a PvP that kept the boat floating this long but the adventure game ...

Original Guns of Icarus now known as Flight of Icarus looks, or plays nothing like Guns of Icarus Online.

I mean I agree about Muse wanting to make a full Adventure mode, and money from the Skirmish mode being necessary to found that dream, that will alleviate, if not completely nullify the issues with GoI, but I don't remember any asset in GoI same as FoI.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mod Josie on May 05, 2015, 10:25:32 am
Wait what?
.... With the failure of FotI the people there had to decide what to do with their lives, move on or keep shooting for the stars. All the assets were converted into a PvP that kept the boat floating this long but the adventure game ...

Original Guns of Icarus now known as Flight of Icarus looks, or plays nothing like Guns of Icarus Online.

I mean I agree about Muse wanting to make a full Adventure mode, and money from the Skirmish mode being necessary to found that dream, that will alleviate, if not completely nullify the issues with GoI, but I don't remember any asset in GoI same as FoI.

FoTI was a basepoint for the essential mechanics that would one day make up GoIO. In almost every other respect it is an evolved form which has little in common with its predecessor.

Also, Mag, your commentary is very well thought out and is an excellent general representation of the plight we endure over here. Thank you for taking the time to step back and analyse our neverending struggle. :P
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on May 05, 2015, 10:43:10 am
Mechanics are indeed the base point, but I was confused about all the assets part. Assets generally mean, textures, models, maps, sounds, etc.
I don't hava a habbit of commenting on the parts I have nothing meaning to add to and don't disagree with.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 12:17:42 pm
Well, there are quite a few conjectures and assumptions made about our intent and motivations to do anything at all.  It's hard for me to try to answer every point, or defend or clarify anything here.  I might have to write a 5 page essay.  So, if anyone has any concerns about our intent or motivation behind anything, please feel free to reach out to me directly.  And I can try my best to answer them, preferably in a more conversational format.  It's just more efficient for me. 

For the hate stuff.  I don't mind hate directed towards us, we're pretty used to it.  Does it bother us sometimes?  Of course.  We are people.  But it's the nature of being a game developer and the nature of service.  It's not a big deal.  But seeing the hate by people directed at each other is sad for me.  People have divergent view points, and are willing to share them on the forum.  Forum is a very public space, and disagreement can become heated.  But just because people disagree, I don't think it needs to or should devolve into hate.  Let's do better. 

And there are some comments about us wondering in the woods aimlessly for the last 2 years, and that actually gets me fascinated.  Give me a bit, and let me pull up our release history, and I'll go over that with everyone. 

@Magkel, just in case you're using steamspy, let me give you a quick stat correction for your reference.  The avg play time is actually 13hr 4min.  Not sure why Steamspy displays that incorrectly, but just fyi.  I have the data from Steam's dev analytics, so that should be accurate.  Also please keep in mind that that owners number include all beta and alpha key activations, so that number largely duplicates. 

Thanks everyone, Howard
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 12:32:53 pm
@Magkel, also not refuting your post whatsoever.  It'll take me a while to even draft a proper reply, but just saw the stats and wanted to chime in real quick. 
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 05, 2015, 12:48:53 pm
I agree with a lot of what MagKel said, and have actually told the high level clans that they don't really matter to the game (along with saying I don't matter to the game either). It is just a simple fact. You build for the future customers, the ones incoming and just getting started, the ones with friends still left to invite, not the old fogies like us.

I don't lament the loss of anything. For every change, I try to see it from a new player's perspective, adapt, and move on. That is part of the reason I was so against stamina from the beginning. I knew I would have fun with it (the first days of testing were insane), but was, and still am concerned about new players and those they might invite after having the best time ever. If, of course, we can get to that point.

With the introduction of Co-op mechanics (mainly AI ships), I feel we can vastly improve (actually replace) the tutorial to get new players past that first bump. Getting dumped into your first match can be awesome. I know it was for me. But I took to the game like a natural, testing builds in practice before using them. I also had friends on teamspeak (I would love to get them back in the game, as soon as the things they hated are fixed).

It can also be a horrible horrible experience. Not everyone (likely most people) try builds in practice. Bad builds. Bad crew. Not understanding arcs, damages, tools. Stomps. MM waits. Lobby waits. Etc. It all adds up to a really bad time, which is something that need to be avoided at all costs for new players. I feel we need to shift the entire start game mechanics to cater to new players. Not dumbed down, but simplified and introduced a bit at a time. But that is another topic I am working on. :)

(posting during my lunch time, by the way. I am only actually around after 5:30 Eastern. Well, back to work)
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 01:03:03 pm
@Richard, I think you guys matter if that makes any difference. 
But on the issue of tutorial.  Oh yeah.  I'm not sure I need to say more, except to say that I agree.  I'm not sure how familiar you or some of the very experienced teachers are with product development, and can digest stuff at the spec level, but that might be interesting. 
Thanks a lot, Howard
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 01:10:35 pm
And about whatever sources said whatever about our turnover, come on guys.  Can we not insinuate?  I'm right here.  Ok, I don't tend to like posting on the forums, but you guys all have my email.  Most of you guys have me on Steam.  You guys all have Matt on email and Steam and maybe Skype.  Just ask us.  If you guys want to know something, just ask us.  Or just ask me.  I really don't mind.  With some of us, we known each other a long time.  I don't really see the point making these types of conjectures.  You guys can really just ask.  Thanks guys. 
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: HamsterIV on May 05, 2015, 01:30:07 pm
I fondly remember the first Guns of Icarus (now Flight of the Icarus). I only managed to play 8 multilayer sessions (2 of them were with friends I coerced into playing) before the servers dried up. The game scratched a gaming itch that I didn't know I had. I was a little sad when I realized the online component for Flight of the Icarus was essentially a ghost town.

@Bubbles
If you are revealing game stats would you mind giving us the Median Average play time. I suspect the Mean Average is skewed by players like me.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on May 05, 2015, 01:39:10 pm
By turnovers I mean the original creative director, UI/UX guy for the project and 1/3 co-founder, and the lead game designer, client developer, project director, and creative director that quit on launch day.

What baffles me is that you guys say you're listening to feedback. Sometimes that's true...if we scream it loud enough. But we also gave a lot of feedback on this terrible new ui while it was in dev app, and it was ignored. UI/UX is one of the most important elements of the game, and it's ludicrous to me that you would do a complete re-work without listening to the proper feedback. Sure now you're listening and had to hire a new UI guy....AFTER release. What on Earth lead you guys to think you should remake a UI without having a professional do it?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: HamsterIV on May 05, 2015, 01:51:25 pm
Listen does not mean follow. An author can listen to how much fans want two characters should get romantically involved. It doesn't stop the author from killing that one of those characters or getting them to marry someone else for the purpose of dramatic tension.

Not that I ever suggested to Muse that the tar barrel and the mine launcher should get married in order to produce some unholy abomination of impact damage and component clogging horror.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Carn on May 05, 2015, 02:05:29 pm
........Tar mines sound beautiful
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 02:06:18 pm
Byron, I apologize for my reply, and I'm editing it.  There appears to be some gap in communications with the functioning of the team.  If you'd like, I can walk you through our development process, who's on the team and what role each person plays.  I can do this on Skype or on steam, I don't mind.  And I'm not saying that you can't say whatever you want.  But sometimes it does bother us when this type of stuff is said.  I know you're passionate, and you really care about the game.  We've known each other for a long time.  So I might be a bit too confrontational here too.  Let me apologize as well.  I absolutely don't mind being open about what we're doing.  Sorry again Byron, and thanks, Howard
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: HamsterIV on May 05, 2015, 02:10:14 pm
She was a community darling who presence on a would redefine a ship's entire function. He was a dirty boy from the wrong side of the tracks, most often employed by smugglers and other ne'er-do-wells. Theirs was a match not meant to be. But one crazy Angelean summer their worlds would collided, and where there is love anything is possible.

Mine Launcher + Tar Barrel
<3  <3  <3
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Carn on May 05, 2015, 02:26:10 pm
She was a community darling who presence on a would redefine a ship's entire function. He was a dirty boy from the wrong side of the tracks, most often employed by smugglers and other ne'er-do-wells. Theirs was a match not meant to be. But one crazy Angelean summer their worlds would collided, and where there is love anything is possible.

Mine Launcher + Tar Barrel
<3  <3  <3
I think we've discovered the writer for a GOIO rom com
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 02:46:52 pm
@Hamster, do you mean session time or total play time? 
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: HamsterIV on May 05, 2015, 02:50:28 pm
I am asking for median value of total play time by player.

Edit
If the Average player leaves the game after < 4 hours of play a case could be made that the mechanics are too hard to understand. However this "Average player" should not be skewed by people like me who play way too much or people who get the game as part of a bundle and never play it. I think Median averaging can remove edge cases like those to get a better idea of what the "Average Player" does. A distribution graph would be even better, but I takes what I can get.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: DJ Logicalia on May 05, 2015, 03:02:16 pm
I would also be interested in this information
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 03:19:27 pm
yeah so the median play time that Magkel had is right.  It's 3hr46min.  And there is of course a long tail.  Distribution wise, if we use 2 hrs, then over 2/3 of players play over 2 hrs.  About 45% of players play over 5 hrs.  It's not the greatest, but not too bad either.  As Magkel pointed out, we could do better, and we should.  We should continue to address different pain points.  I guess my point is just that if we say we identified some issues new players are facing (from tutorial to UI to mechanics etc.) At least as a developer, I do look at it as, say if I address an issue that I think has ease of use ramifications, I don't think that's a zero sum process.  But of course we do realize that sometimes the solution for one group may not be needed for another group.  It's tough, but the spirit of what we do, and our point of departure isn't always to look at user groups separately. 
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: MagKel on May 05, 2015, 03:20:21 pm
I made some mistakes in the text that would completely warp the meaning of what i wanted to write, I think I corrected them.

@howard : I was very surprised and a little sad too to see such a small average. It warms my heart to know it was wrong. Dammit it!  :( But it is still much better than before. Still more has to be done because more players=more fun. i hope the teaching tournament becomes a permanent thing.
@jacob : I am very sympathetic with the struggle of MUSE. I complain, yes. i criticize, yes. I can even sound arrogant when i say "Do it this way" but at the end of the day I want you to be successful because you deserve it for all the work and love put in this game.
@MUSE in general : We are mad. Not because you are doing a terrible job but because we don't know where this is going. We are the customers at your Winchester (https://youtu.be/INJCF_FoX2c?t=1m7s), we come to you every day and notice every small detail that changes. Some people like it, some people don't and yet everybody seems constantly mad at you. it is a normal reaction and you need to accept it: this community is made up of very passionate young adults from modern democracies, controversy and debate are nonnegotiable traits that sometimes will boil the blood in your veins.

If we see a change, we are vocal about it. If we spend time in Dev App and try the changes it is because we are afraid some patch is going to break the game and make it lose its appeal. Is it going to happen? Possibly, nobody including you knows every single implication. The blenderfish, the metamidion and all the other unbalances were not evident in the beginning. Did it happen? The fact that there is people playing the game after 3 years is a testament that maybe it is not that bad.

My opinion as a new player and someone who's beginning to be involved in the community is that MUSE shouldn't be surprised that people are irrationally mad at their game, while the players should start remembering more often that this is a product, not a public institution. And because it is a product the idea behind it is to make something that will be awarded by MUSE's peers as magnificent and successful, giving them the chance to grow into an even bigger entity. It works on a scale and scope that is many orders of magnitude greater than the competitive scene or the individual fun of anyone involved here.

The biggest problem IMHO of this conversation is not the occasional shouting match but the fact that it can't lead anywhere because the Devs are also friends of the players and the players are also friends of the Devs. it is the "Indie Syndrome" where everything is less institutionalized compared to a true corporate entity, leading to a bar conversation. it is nobody's fault and yet it is detrimental because MUSE cares about the GOIO players, grew fond of the few that lived with their creature for so long and is particularly sensitive to criticism.

We all see you on the Dev Fireside Chat. You want to talk about Adventure Mode, Coop Mode and instead we bog you down with game balance issues and MMR. It is not that we don't care about them, it is that our scope is completely different from yours and apparently you don't realize it. We play the game, we don't build it. What we care is not getting stuck in a component, not the AI of the Coop. What we care is counters to blending and meta, competitive tools and way so that uncooperative players don't get into out way. Our Fun is different from your Fun, hence the MMR hate, the Scrub hate and the general noisy complaining here in the forums. It is never going to change, you must take it just like we must accept that we don't have control over the direction GOIO takes. We are a populations of cats that will loudly complain every-time we want to go out and eat, disappear for a while worrying you mad and yet show our love in the most unexpected times and ways.

Tl:dr MUSE and veteran players suffer from "Indie Syndrome" while leaving in two very different dimensions: MUSE would like the players to unconditionally love their work even if it diminishes their fun, players would like MUSE to unconditionally love them and cater to every desire. It can't be done, it will never happen and the lasting friendships developed bridging the two communities often transcend the conversation in a dialog between humans instead of being between public relations and player. As expected, drama ensues.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on May 05, 2015, 03:30:24 pm
@MagKel, I really really appreciate this. It is a perspective that I need to heed and remind myself of as well.  Especially with this thread, I've done a poor job in my responses, and I totally apologize to everyone.  Thank you to taking the time to write this.  It definitely helps keeping things in perspective for me.  Thank you so much, Howard
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Keyvias on May 05, 2015, 03:50:33 pm
Just wanted to jump in here and I wanted to thank you for amazingly clear and objective look you wrote out MagKel.

I definitely agree there is often times a tilted view of what our priorities are, what our players priorities are, and what players think we think our players priorities are.
As far as excitedly pushing Co-Op in fireside, mostly because taglines like that get the largest number of players to show up to chat with us. We have the lead designer there though and take all the MMR, meta, and Skirmish design questions we can. Trust me, we love doing it as well. Co-Op could easily viewed as our second kid so we do like to brag about the AI plays no longer leaving a brown stain on the side of mountain, but believe me when I say a lot of concern, time, and love are sill focused on Skirmish.

The biggest issue I feel like we run into is convincing players we actually act on feedback and this is because we get conflicting feedback. We get love and hate for every idea, balance change, or tweak we test.

As far as our feelings getting hurt, if people fall out of love with Guns or don't like the direction, of course it's not our favorite thing to hear, but we can respect and understand it. I think what bothers us the most is when it feels like information is twisted or incorrect especially when we have an open door policy.
We definitely want to do better to push this though. Howard and I have often given out our skype info and had very long (and very productive!) talks with players.
I'm Keyvias on skype (and pretty much everywhere) feel free to contact me directly.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Shaytan on May 05, 2015, 04:30:01 pm
My 2 cents on why I stopped playing.

Focused too much on changing game systems and less on game content.

Also I get matchmaking, you want to make it all nice and easy to use for console players. But it made enjoying the game a lot harder for me.

Also on stamina, I just don't get it. Sprinting as an engineer, why do I need to sprint on a teeny little ship, I'm not on a US Destroyer. Gunner kinda makes sense I suppose, reloading a gun way bigger than you faster. Pilot is the most absurd, it's like magic. Am I captain Harlock? And my ship is my dead friend's spirit and I can command it to just magically turn hard? (That would be cool.)

But yeah, that's my opinion. Game in it's self is still fun, the only aerial ship game out there.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 05, 2015, 05:45:18 pm
I got it, the mode that would make Richard happy. Noobs would be empowered and vets would never play it ever.

Idea is as simple as hardcore mode in BF. So you have 5yr old soccer novice mode with self regenerating ships. Meaning no matter how bad the damage they take, the ships regenerate on their own. So noobs can do an absolute terrible job with everything but the game literally gives them free wins. This throws out teams, requirements of having a crew, and means that they can take horrid builds and sit there blasting away at each other for an hour before finally killing something. Then you'd have the normal mode where it is like the current game.

Sorry, just can never agree with coddling people. Games can be harder to learn but if you make them fun, people are willing to learn it.  Yes I'd like certain changes to be the standard instead of stamina, but this helps Muse see where the fun factor comes in better. At least for right now. If they want to change it in the future, great. I can already tell from the numbers on at the normal dead hours that the pop doubled. The Sun/Mon crunch is always the worst but before stamina I saw numbers getting down under 20 and it would stay consistently around that for hours. Last night during the normal crunch time we had 40 and the numbers increased as the time went. Granted this is early after a patch but it does show that people are taking to the new gameplay and enjoying it. If Stamina was purely hated and despised, wouldn't be seeing an increase.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: nanoduckling on May 05, 2015, 05:59:57 pm
Well that took a grumpy turn quickly. Let me echo the suggestion that folks calm down and maybe have some tea. My responses below.

Byron:
I value your opinion, I know it is shared by many vets. You and I have had a different experience, in part because I joined later. There are a few things we agree on though. First the heavy handed nerfs. I'd rather that changes to things like ships stats and ammo types be made slowly over many patches so we can get a feel for their impact. Maybe the pyra nerf or the heavy clip nerf or the flamer nerf are perfectly balanced as is and my perception is wrong, but I do know those changes have immediately produced qualitative changes in the feel of the game. Recent nerfs haven't slightly impacted meta strategies, they have crippled them to the extent that we have to completely relearn how to use them. Maybe after relearning them they are just as viable as other strategies, maybe they aren't, but we have to relearn them and it isn't subtle. This works great for folks like me because (outside of competitive where I've probably relied heavily on the blender) I'm pretty experimental, but I can see why it annoys people.

I'm not sure there is little testing, but I do think someone at Muse likes to be bold when it comes to changes. I'd like whoever that person is to be given a chill pill and reminded about the qualitative effects large changes have in non-linear systems. The dev app community seems pretty small to me so Muse seem to be doing what testing they can.

I'm not sure the design direction is random. It seems to me that the PvP game is being used as a testing ground for Adventure Mode. Muse have always been pretty open about the plan here from what I can tell. That means mechanics like stamina added to the PvP game. That said I agree that the style has been a bit inconsistent. The new UI is a prime example of that. My concerns are less with style there and more with seemingly foolhardy approach to established design principles like maximizing information density, correlating element size with importance, etc. I suspect someone with a background in design would take one look at the new UI and give their head a little shake.

As far as the quality of the game taking a nose dive, I don't believe in objective astetic values, so I don't think that statements about quality independent of values is especially meaningful. If I valued consistent art design I think I'd have a lower opinion of the game than I currently do. If I was a bit more selfish and wanted constant meta changes which benefit players like myself I'd probably be happier with the game. If I wanted a game where I could count on consistent game elements to explore in great depth I suspect I would have stopped playing the game a long time ago. It all comes down to what we want. Some of the recent changes I liked. Stamina added more depth to the game and gave me new things to play with. I can understand not everyone is going to like that though.

To answer the title of your post, no I don't think it was a fluke, but a conscious design choice to go after a specific niche, a heavily co-op focused game with a steampunkish (I have a hard time placing the GoI aesthetic because it seems to borrow from steampunk, dieselpunk fantasy and the spaghetti western, that might contribute to the artistic cognitive dissonance) style. Going extreme in terms of target audience was always going to generate a somewhat fanatical fan-base. This probably explains some of the more extreme responses we see when things are changed. GoI is really the only place we can go to get a game focused on these themes and this level of co-operation, so when something changes which moves it between different sub-niches folks get upset. I say sub-niches because GoI has moved between niches. Anyone who has read Gilder's posts know that in 1.1 things were more dynamic and pilots were better able to dynamically control engagements. More recent patches made the positional game vital (especially the era of the gat/mortar metamidion). Of course this means that it is impossible to satisfy everyone at once, and it is sad for me to see so many folks not having a good time in the game at the moment, even if others are thrilled with the recent changes.

David:
David consider what you are doing here. You are actively burning bridges that will be difficult to rebuild, many of them with people who I would hope you value outside of being GoI players. As I explain above I can understand how people get angry over changes in things they care about and cant find elsewhere. It is okay to be upset the game is moving in a direction you don't like, but universalizing your experience (assuming your experience is the same as everyone else's) and assigning motive to others without basis will lead you to false conclusions, and in the latter case can hurt people. I don't believe you actually want to do that. Even if you never return to GoI I think you want to leave a positive impact on other people, and the way you are expressing yourself here is not doing that. I say that as someone who is like you disappointed at times with the design choices that Muse have made which created problems for veteran players.

I'd point out that I think you are wrong about stamina benefiting exclusively new players. If that is what it was intended to do then it has been doing a spectacularly poor job of it in the games I've played in. Richard has explained to you how adding new elements to a game typically benefit those already experienced with it due to combinatorial effects, and I will just echo that here. A novice might be able to use stamina to compensate for bad gun arcs but that counts for diddly squat when mine are using it to get rapid successive hull breaks with a gatling due to enhanced reload, or landing multiple mercury shots on a target with a loch flak pointed at the enemy.

I'm not going to guess at your motivations or intentions (and I'd suggest others not do so either as I've never seen such speculation ending productively) when you say you are leaving. If you say this patch has upset you enough that you don't want to play any more then I've no desire to question that. But even if you hate the game now that does not have to translate into opprobrium directed at other people or even at the folks who make up Muse. In life people will make decisions we don't like, but I have generally found I get more of what I want by directing my frustration at those decisions rather than at the people making them.

Grey:
The effort to reduce lobby times is something I'm happy with. I'm not sure it is why GoI has a retention problem, but faster match starts aren't necessarily a bad thing. I think I'm one of the few more experienced players who appreciates the lobby timer. I've expressed elsewhere serious concerns about the model matchmaker uses to predict matches, those concerns have deepened now that it basically tells me match predictions through the underdog system. Something is very badly broken with the model you folks are using when it comes to experienced players. If my count is right since the patch matchmaker is 0 for 3 with me rating teams as underdogs. If the system was working correctly and we generously assume matchmaker was making marginal calls (close to the boundary) I'm in the unlucky ~2.5% here. I've also expressed in other threads that the matchmaker is pairing those best placed to teach new players with those least interested in learning.

I agree the nerfs needed to happen, I'm fine with things getting nerfed. Has to be done if a mono-cultural meta-game emerges. I think most folks understand that. I don't understand why they need to be so heavy handed. Take the heavy clip nerf. This change has some hard boundaries so we have a sense of scale, you cant make the effect on spread greater than 100%, nor does it make sense to make it less than 0%. Typically when folk talk about small changes what they mean is an order of magnitude less than the characteristic scale of the system. In this case that would be a 1-10% change. Instead the change was 30%. Now I don't care because I change my build every game anyway, so having to experiment with new things is no imposition on me. For others this change throws big chunks of their past experience out the window. Would say a 15% change this patch and a 15% change next patch have been hard to do? I know there are a bunch of other changes that would have to be scaled with this one (like the carro nerf), but from what I can tell the calculations for those scale mostly linearly, and where they don't the impact would be to leave things similar to how they were before.

Logic and Ceres:
I promise this discussion comes full circle with a practical suggestion as to how Muse might want to view feedback from tests. Ah the philosophy of Psychology. I'm pretty sure Logic's hard drive is free from the risk of an uninstall. Ceres your understanding of this discipline seems pretty deficient here, I have no idea why you are talking about classical conditioning which is completely irrelevant. Logic asked you to defend your case, but I'm not even sure it can be made coherent. However I will try to work out what the intent is behind your words and translate that into a defensible thesis.

Quality in video games is an aesthetic judgement, and science is a descriptive epistemology. Hence, if the statement:

"weeks of testing and working hard at something makes you gain a  [sic]bias opinion of it."

is normative (that is to say the bias refers to inducing a difference from established objective norms in regard to quality in video games) then you have set yourself an epistemic burden you have no hope of reaching. If you simply mean that experience of a thing positively (suitably operationalized) disposes folks towards a thing, then since the statement is universally quantified a single counter-example is sufficient. I'm pretty sure PTSD demonstrates the weakness of your thesis. If, as I suspect, your statement is meant to imply that experience of a thing changes ones perspective of it, well you might want to take off the captain obvious suit ;). Seriously though if anyone is going to know what you are talking about you are going to need to be way more specific, and maybe learn a bit of the technical language of the discipline you are using. There might be a related point here though.

Cognitive biases exist. I can think of several possible biases that might afflict testers. Testers for a video game could end up experiencing attentional bias (I'll cite[1] as an example for this because it deals with chronic pain and I want to subtly hint that I don't like the new UI) because they are likely individuals who think a lot about the co-operative element of game play due to selection bias. They could also suffer from framing bias[2], (if the dev app is updated with a message to testers reading 'enjoy' vs. 'happy bug hunting' for example), although I've no idea how that could be avoided here. They could also suffer from the IKEA effect[3] (which is an awesome name), which I suspect is vaguely related to what Ceres was originally talking about (I say related because the example he gave was of parents and children, and no researcher worth a damn would consider that a good example of this effect because of the genetic relationship between subject and stimulus). In this investment by someone in making something (say by building a piece of furniture or providing feedback to a game designer) causes people to value the thing higher regardless of if the final thing is of higher quality.

On a side note I suspect avoiding bias is why Muse don't tell testers what has changed in the dev app right away.

What does any of that mean here? Diddly because inferring other people opinions are bias is a foolhardy thing to do in a discussion, especially one about subjective values where there is no objective standard anyway so any notion of bias is essentially meaningless. This way lies endless accusations of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I do think Muse should keep in mind testers opinions might be more positive than the wider communities because of the aforementioned effects. Of course my recommendation is based on a reasonable understanding of the state of the art in cognitive research and not a pop-psychology analysis of others faculties.

[1] Schoth, D.E., & Liossi, C. (2010). Attentional bias towards pictorial representations of pain in individuals with chronic headache. The Clinical Journal of Pain. 26 (3): 244–250.
[2] Clark, D (2009). Framing effects exposed. Pearson Education.
[3] Norton, Michael I.; Mochon, Daniel; Ariely, Dan. "The IKEA effect: When labor leads to love". Journal of Consumer Psychology 22 (3): 453–460.

MagKel and Richard:
Yup.

Keyvias:
An approach you might want to consider when responding to feedback is making it clear how varied it can be. If we knew your inbox was clogged with clear, thought out emails detailing why change X was needed I thinks folks would understand why decisions were made. Reading the forum and talking to testers within our community it occasionally seems like a consensus has been reached which runs directly counter to some of the implemented changes.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 05, 2015, 06:19:53 pm
Gilder, I am going to have to assume that is sarcasm. That 'mode' sounds horrid, and I am much more clever than that.

I keep saying Guns is more like chess than an FPS.

When teaching chess, you show the novice each piece, and tell them what it can do. Then you go into the details of how to capture an enemy piece. Then into strategy via short, followed by long game.

If Guns were chess, the teaching method is this (by pure mechanics):  Set up all the pieces. Place the novice against a grandmaster. Allow the novice to make a move. Slap their hand if it is the wrong move. Continue doing so until they learn the game or quit.

People will NOT play a game if it is fun if that is the method used for teaching because they never learn it is fun. For every player that bumps into a good teacher or just takes to the game naturally, there are 100 others that get slapped.

Building a good tutorial/learning curve is an art into itself. Some games are so masterful in doing so that you do not even realize it is teaching you the game. It is more like conditioning, and setting the tone of what to expect while introducing you to the tools or mechanics you need to overcome what comes next.


edit: @ nano - Just read through your entire text (even the psych bit) wondering what you would have to say about me. All I got is a 'Yup'. Not sure how that makes me feel.  :P
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on May 05, 2015, 06:42:19 pm
Firstly, I want to thank all devs for posting here (since I know they don't really like/have time for it). That motivates us to do the ant-work in order to make the game better (by giving you the best feedback).

Now something completely different - wall of text!

Then... oh man, this thread has taken so many turns in so many directions that it's hard to even start. Maybe from the beginning - I joined around the end of 1.3.5 and for me GOIO is divided into pre-matchmaker era and matchmaker era. I remember that I started playing during summer holidays and fell in love in the game, I played for 6-10 hours daily. Then matchmaker came and ruined the game for me, to the point that I dropped the game for 2 months. When I came back I was no longer in love, more like friends with a lot of nostalgia of the past. The ones who read forum probably already know that I raised many complaints, but for me 1.4.1 was a huge step in good direction. I felt that the patch fixed/introduced features based on player feedback and it was actually first patch in a 'long' time that actually made my experience significantly better. I like this patch. And I choose to believe that we'll never take a step back.

I think one of the core problems of GOIO is two(and a half)-step problem:
1) One stupid player can easily ruin your experience
2) Vets can't play with vets, they have to play with medium or low skilled players*
2.5) There's no way of dealing with stupid players (once they're on your ship/team)
Giving you example, how things work in CS:GO
You suck -> You get better -> You play with people who are better -> Fun
In GOIO:
You suck -> You get better -> You play with randoms -> Sometimes really sucks
(well, being in a clan and having a lot of friends is crucial to having fun in goio and it can make those random encounters appear more rarely)
And it is partially because a large amount of people leave the game and I have an impression that GOIO population consists of 70% people below 500 matches and 30% people above 500 matches. It's worth taking a while to think why those people leave the game forever and in what circumstances. And I believe that although having many people bought the game is some kind of succes (because Muse can into moneys) 'but' having many people bought the game AND leave it shortly after (I think current playerbase is easily below 5% of all people who have ever bought the game) is something worth noticing and thinking through.

Again, CS:GO is an example that games CAN be harsh to new players and CAN be hard to learn and even harder to master, but when they offer something for your time. That's how games become popular, you go to your friend like "Listen, first 30-50 hours is going to suck, because you'll be learning shit, BUT THEN, OH BROTHER, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE FUN!". Perhaps GOIO's midgame and endgame aren't that rewarding. I am always repeating that good games defend themselves, and pre-matchmaker when I was in love with GOIO I bought game for my brother and actually brought him in and also encouraged one other guy to buy it, later he encouraged like 3-4 people to buy it, and so on....
(I just noticed that during writing this post Gilder wrote something similar, so I agree obviously)

*inb4 "But Dis, it's due to low population!" - devs have had 2 years to solve this problem

On the tutorial thing - Extra Credits recommended to make such an experiment: take a new player, sit him in front of computer and let him go through tutorial WITHOUT any advice from you. Then you can easily see where does he get lost and what mechanics need to be explained more thoroughly.

Personally on the feedback I have mixed feeling. Once on a Fireside I asked about new maps and was told that there won't be much more new stuff because devs are working on Co-Op. Then we got Minotaur and knew Stamina was in the DevApp...

@Jacob
Quote
Some games are produced on massive budgets and are fated for success due to hype, marketing and a big brand-name; other games have to lead a harder life in order to gain notability.
I don't think that's always the case. I mean, I refuse to believe that consumers are stupid enough to buy the game just because it looks cool on commercials and everyone is talking about it. And even then - it will fail soon. Good example is waaaay overhyped Evolve
http://steamcharts.com/app/273350#All
In 3 months average population decreased by 7 times. Games have to be fun to be successful. And although it's surely easier to do with more budget and more marketing resources, that's not always the case, really. Also there is quite a lot of going on in indie scene also and good indie games gain recognition pretty quickly


Edit: About the variety of feedback - I think it's really helpful when devs put their reasons for particular change in patch notes (as they did now). It may lessen the outrage (at least the first wave) of the players.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 05, 2015, 07:14:42 pm
BUT THEN, OH BROTHER, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE FUN!

Instantly read that in drunk Sapphire's Savage voice. Intentional?

-About the variety of feedback - I think it's really helpful when devs put their reasons for particular change in patch notes (as they did now). It may lessen the outrage (at least the first wave) of the players-

I personally think we need to get more players testing, especially novices. I propose to merge Devapp with the main game and give it permission based access in addition to random sample invitation. Then you can test the game from the same client.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mod Josie on May 05, 2015, 07:35:13 pm
@Jacob
Quote
Some games are produced on massive budgets and are fated for success due to hype, marketing and a big brand-name; other games have to lead a harder life in order to gain notability.
I don't think that's always the case. I mean, I refuse to believe that consumers are stupid enough to buy the game just because it looks cool on commercials and everyone is talking about it. And even then - it will fail soon. Good example is waaaay overhyped Evolve
http://steamcharts.com/app/273350#All
In 3 months average population decreased by 7 times. Games have to be fun to be successful. And although it's surely easier to do with more budget and more marketing resources, that's not always the case, really. Also there is quite a lot of going on in indie scene also and good indie games gain recognition pretty quickly

I would argue that pre-ordering any game is exactly what you mentioned. You are relying on what you've heard in commercials and reviews to make a decision about whether or not to lay your money down.

While I do definitely agree with your assessment in premise, Evolve is a case study that made some big mistakes. Their model's reliance on DLC peddling made a lot of fast enemies. I'd also like to note that the game did initially sell well purely based on hype, generated by strong marketing. It was only after the fact that the game's sales began to suffer. Not that that game is completely dead mind you, they're still pulling numbers!

You're definitely not wrong though. The indie scene has the power to produce utter juggernauts of games (Minecraft fills my head at this moment) though it is easily admitted that having a bigger budget to hammer consumers with will make the job of selling a game easier. The video game market is stupendously competitive (that's a good thing, don't get me wrong) and having a big wallet and a reputation behind you will give you a leg-up.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on May 05, 2015, 07:49:43 pm
... Anyone who has read Gilder's posts know that in 1.1 things were more dynamic and pilots were better able to dynamically control engagements. More recent patches made the positional game vital (especially the era of the gat/mortar metamidion). Of course this means that it is impossible to satisfy everyone at once, and it is sad for me to see so many folks not having a good time in the game at the moment, even if others are thrilled with the recent changes.

I loved playing in those times, but I got to say: no things weren't more dynamic, it's just ships like Pyramidion (with 300 000 kg it was second heaviest ship, and still almost as manoeuvrable as the Goldfish) were far too manoeuvrable. In competitive you only saw 3 ships and 4 builds total (gat/flak metamidion, blenderfish, flakfish, and galleon with a double flak and merc long range side). People have had their builds nerfed or broken in 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 (witch saw explosive damage nerf, heavy flak got arming time, flamer nerf, pyra nerf, junker buff and some new clouds added on some of the most prominent sniping maps like the Fjords and Dunes), have rose tinted glasses for those times and are inflexible with their builds (admittedly I'm inflexible only when it comes to purely sniping builds). I'll freely admit I was abusing the op as fuck metamidion in those days.

Quote
I think one of the core problems of GOIO is two(and a half)-step problem:
1) One stupid player can easily ruin your experience
2) Vets can't play with vets, they have to play with medium or low skilled players*
2.5) There's no way of dealing with stupid players (once they're on your ship/team)

*inb4 "But Dis, it's due to low population!" - devs have had 2 years to solve this problem
The 2 most popular MOBAs (LoL and DOTA2) have both problems 1 and 2.5 with the addition of extremely toxic communities
* is a circular argument
There is nothing preventing Vets playing Vets (it might be slightly less likely to happen with matchmaking, but you can always join on friends you can even make custom lobbies specifiicly to play with other players you want to. Players don't HAVE to play with medium or low skilled players.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on May 05, 2015, 08:00:10 pm
I was ignoring this thread in hopes people would realize how whiny and ridiculous it is. Then it became 7 pages long and I see now that failed.

Just because Muse doesn't agree with your opinions doesn't mean they don't care about your feedback. Muse has been pretty damn consistent with being attentive to feedback. This is easily the most ridiculous thread I've seen started. I know I am guilty of it as well, but I see so many people around here mistaking their opinions for objective truths. The notion that 1.1 was some golden era has as much evidence to support it as the notion that 1.1 was the dark ages.

Muse definitely listens to constructive feedback. However many people have a warped view concerning where their opinions end and constructive feedback begins.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: c-ponter on May 06, 2015, 03:06:51 am
Bit off topic but seeing all the stats about how long a player stays made me think. Of the 4 friends I either bought the game with or convinced to buy it, they all stayed roughly 10 hrs total game time, and they all give the exact same reason for leaving. Its not that they kept losing to higher PvP players or found a long time to get into a game. Every single one of them said "the game is great fun at first, but gets repetitive extremely quickly. As an engineer you just run around hitting the same old components. As a gunner it is almost a point-and-click game. The pilot is the only class that stays fun." Obviously 4 out of how every many thousands is next to nothing, mu point is that the game, from my experience at least is fun at first, then gets a bit boring, then is fun again once you understand it more. The question is how to make that slightly repetitive middle stage more diverse?
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Koali on May 06, 2015, 12:08:33 pm
@c-ponter

Troll builds.

Munker, Flak Spire, Flare Mobula, Minotaur Galleon...
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on May 06, 2015, 12:28:31 pm
You know nothing Jon Snow :P

Depends on what you add to the flak on the spire, but the Flak Spire is a "legit" build.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on May 06, 2015, 12:46:47 pm
^ also minotaur is arguably best on a galleon.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Koali on May 06, 2015, 05:39:04 pm
@Mattilald Anguisad

I mean ALL flak.

EVERY. SLOT.

Basically guaranteed to get no kills, unless teamed with a cannon Spire, which is Minotaur and Hades.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on May 06, 2015, 06:25:16 pm
A crowd gathered. The ones who were involved and the ones who didn't. They saw it. There was no mistake, it was the end. They saw the body twisted with a disease, a terrible disease that they all hoped never to see again. They didn't know what was more overwhelming - sadness or disgust. They were trying so hard... Everything was going good. So far. They luck ended here. It came like always... Sudden. Fast. Painful. The sun was setting. It was time. One of them stepped forward and sighed slowly. He knew what to do. He said with a loud, clear voice:
-Gentlemen! We managed to keep very important and serious thread derail-clean for 7 pages! Bravo everyone, it was a good run.
He started clapping his hands energically. A single tear flickered on his cheek.
-Damn, I'm proud, truly proud guys. You are the best. It was... it was truly... *sniff* ... it was great. Okay, move along, we have to move this thing to the pit. Next time we'll hit 8 pages guys, I know we can make it!

Derailers... (including (sic!) a CA)
(http://i.imgur.com/FyQ6j9y.gif)
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Koali on May 06, 2015, 06:39:16 pm
Aight man next time just PM us?

Actually don't, it amuses me when you do this.

AAAAAANYHOO I haven't had many good matches lately, mostly as a product of never being online at the same time as the rest of my clan. I don't think it's so much a matter of the game being a fluke as it is a rash of bad luck with the matchmaker.

No, scratch that, it's the matchmaker.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: ZnC on May 07, 2015, 03:36:53 pm
Every single one of them said "the game is great fun at first, but gets repetitive extremely quickly. As an engineer you just run around hitting the same old components. As a gunner it is almost a point-and-click game. The pilot is the only class that stays fun." Obviously 4 out of how every many thousands is next to nothing, mu point is that the game, from my experience at least is fun at first, then gets a bit boring, then is fun again once you understand it more. The question is how to make that slightly repetitive middle stage more diverse?

What I really enjoy about GOIO is that it involves using game knowledge to devise a plan which you have to execute as a team. Whenever I learn or discover something new about the game, I really want to try it out. However, for this to happen my team needs to be willing to let me try things and learn (and I thank the many pilots & crew who have).

This is why when I pilot, I set only a few rules and then trust my crew members to make decisions (e.g. loadout choices, in-game situations) - maybe they know a better way to do something that I don't.
Certainly, this is not very effective with less experienced players, but allow good players to shine more and have fun their way.

There always seem to be something new to learn about the game, however the fun is different for everyone.
Title: Re: Was GOIO A Fluke?
Post by: Dr Brobotnik on June 04, 2015, 06:23:21 pm
I never stopped enjoying this game. It was a blast to jump into at any time from the start and to me, it still is. It maintains what makes me adore it to bits: simplistic yet heavy teamwork focused gameplay, voice communication being almost a neccessity, and lobbies that are just full of laughs for everyone.
I think the real problem is how people tend to focus so much on things that they think should be there, so that they forget to appriciate what they have. Making something with the intent of being as appealing as possible to hundreds, and later thousands of people is never an easy task. If nothing else, I can appriciate how the Muse team does their best to find the best way and shows no fear in the face of trying new things. It's just a game to you and me, but to them, it's their life and everything they worked for.
I'm not willing to give up on such a dream just because of a few bumps in the road. I patch my wheels up and enjoy the ride. Because at the end of the day, I'd much rather ride with somebody who believes strongly than somebody who just considers me an object of revenue - regardless of how competent the driver is.