Was GOIO A Fluke?

[Byron Cavendish]

*Before reading this keep in mind these are just the opinions of the strongly opinionated Byron, and I am not trying to start a flame war*

I think most vets will agree if asked that the first 6-8 months of GOIO was it's golden age. Even though the population was much smaller, the game itself was much more enjoyable and had an aura of a well developed game with a bright future. I think at that point any of us would have said the developers had good heads on their shoulders.

Flash forward to today, and I think that story is quite different for many of us. Ever since that first summer after GOIO's release we started seeing bad habits arise; heavy-handed and arbitrary nerfs or balance changes, little to no testing, the disastrous spawn system, match-making and ui releases. The seemingly random design directions that would stop at months at a time to chase a new project, only to drop that and go back to the previous project. The development of this game has gone from a promising start to aimless and frantic "shooting in the dark".

I am also aware from fireside chats and other sources that the development staff of GOIO has had quite a few turnovers, including artists and writers, which has lead to gaps and disconnects in the style and identity of the game.

So I had a musing (no pun intended)...was our original bar set too high? Was the game developed really well, and perhaps after losing a few individuals (and the rise of others) lost it's brilliance behind its design? I think we can all agree that the original game at release and even its concept is a beautiful one. I for one will always love anything steampunk, and especially anything airship and steampunk. But ever since release the quality of the game and it's development has been slowly but steadily gaining in a downward spiral. Perhaps it's like a painting; the concept of the painting is beautiful, but the artist got so focused on a few details that they lost focus on the whole piece and what it was originally.

Thoughts?

[Skrimskraw]

maybe its because you played a large amount of hours and are now used to the game and its mechanics. Nothing seem new and you lost interest in the game as a whole because when it comes down to it, it is just a game.

[Lanliss]

A friend of mine compared goio to Princess Bride. It is a cult game, with niche gameplay. You cannot get the same thing anywhere else, but it is such a specific and unforgiving game that most either do not or cannot stick around. I already mentioned in a different section that it is possible, due to our low population, that those who play it right now are all naturals at it, to a degree. Maybe it took a while for some to pick up on the cues that others consider obvious, but at least they eventually learned. I think that most who left simply couldn't cut it in the world. This steep learning curve, combined with a mix of different art styles, makes it a very difficult game to pinpoint. I personally see it as one of the most competitive games out there, with most of the population playing competitively in one way or another.

To sum it all up, a very unique game. That makes it difficult to handle, because the devs cannot look anywhere for help, and must figure everything out on their own.

[Byron Cavendish]

maybe its because you played a large amount of hours and are now used to the game and its mechanics. Nothing seem new and you lost interest in the game as a whole because when it comes down to it, it is just a game.

For me it feels like the opposite. I loved the original mechanics and style, and I hate the changes. I was more interested in the game when it wasn't changing so drastically. But I am not burned out if thats what you're saying, I really want to play this game, it's just so hard to after seeing it being mistreated.

[Dutch Vanya]

Personally i think creating co-op mode was a mistake. I always wanted them to support their existing game more. Especially considering how limited the staff was and how it changed.

[Crafeksterty]

the game itself was much more enjoyable and had an aura of a well developed game with a bright future.

Ive read and heard lots of stories of those times.

I would not want to play in those times.

Too many things that if reverted would be game braking, nummingly dumb to have been implemented.
Heavy flaks ignoring armor?
One fire kicking people off guns?
with that, and crazy movement that pretty much made you not choose certain ships over others.


You are forgetting that they continuesly update on this game because they have
1. better ideas
2. other installments that add to the different modes of play (Coop, adventure).

They choose skirmish firstly, as it is barebones dependant on players. So content and mechanics of delivering the game doesnt need to worry too much on content keeping players playing. But it does gain content because... coop, which comes with AI and missions, a new way of playing the game as an expansion. And with everything developed in there leads too... Things developed in skirmish and coop, will be added and developed in adventure mode.

The skirmish mode changes because it will need to fit and play with in coop mode, its just Win-win. Test it there, development here.

I think that most who left simply couldn't cut it in the world. This steep learning curve, combined with a mix of different art styles, makes it a very difficult game to pinpoint.

I agree that goio is unique, but i also must say that goio fails to deliver a good starting ground for anyone that tries to play.

I played with a newbie who claims he hasnt played in a while (1 year ago) but he had only 6 matches, and he didnt know how to repair or where to fire the guns. I told him to go and do the tutorial and he refused. People who are "naturals" is not the case. This is simply the case of competant players versus incompatent casulz. It is a game made with competancy, however lacks forgiving incompetancy. "If you are an engineer, you repair when things are damaged as quick as possible" "A gunner hits his shots at the best of areas at the best of time" "Pilot flies and chooses the best of ship in the best of ways". But it doesnt forgive incompetancy such as "Simply flying and not going into practice to see how the guns work".

Its not a big learning curve wall, its a competancy wall. The learning curve for the fundementals is actually not big at all. But to master, goes narrowly deep. However, the game expects you to follow, which if you dont, makes things go really badly.

Personally i think creating co-op mode was a mistake. I always wanted them to support their existing game more. Especially considering how limited the staff was and how it changed.

Then adventure mode is a mistake? If there would be skirmish, and only skirmish. Then the game wouldnt get as much updates and the devs would want to hop into other projects. But for them, it is easier and perhaps more fun to build on their current project such as coop or adventure mode. THIS is their "other project" coop and adventure, which ties to skirmish and is why we get updates.

[Richard LeMoon]

Ships instantly exploding when hitting the ground... I am glad I missed that.

[Carn]

Though I didn't have the game back then I have heard the stories of course. The "more cloud update" was because double merc pyra was about the only meta played, heavy flaks being OP as hell. Perhaps your simply remembering through rose colored glasses, I dunno. It sounds like there was good and bad, depending on who I ask.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I get you on so many levels Byron. Right now is probably the happiest I've been in GOIO for years just because Stamina enables a brief near 1.1 mode. It isn't full 1.1 but it gets about as close to it as I think we'll come with this design team. I love running matches and seeing people enjoying it. To see pilots loving it and maximizing it. Newer players suddenly becoming a tad bit harder to kill when they learn they have the power. It just...proves right some of the arguments I've been making ever since. I'd gladly enrage and alienate part of the community and make them all over again if it meant we had gotten them sooner. Sadly, people just didn't care enough to join in too. General consensus in matches every night for months was people wanted it back or at least wanted to experience it, but you could never get them to post. Even my own clan. They'd just sit back, nod their head, then watch silently from the sidelines. They'd bitch and moan every patch but generally wouldn't let Muse know. "Oh Gilder's got it, he'll argue for us!" Then they'd go on and play other games, only opening GOIO for practices or to see what new horrors Muse would inflict with each patch.

I wonder if Muse's development has been part scatterbrained because people just don't speak up. Then the ones that did all the time, they just started to ignore. Some of their design choices have clearly ignored the pleas of some of us. Heck I've felt multiple times that Muse just ignored or laughed at my arguments. Whether they did or didn't, still felt that way. The hint of sarcasm in their voices at times, wouldn't help.

I love Muse but I hate them at the same time. Part because of this development style which Byron speaks of. I hate that they seem to meander about in their focus. At times they push to the side, good ideas, in favor of ones that make you shake your head (MM). Then the Pyra has been the most patched ship in the game and is still on track to be perpetually the most patched ship. It's just one of those shake your head things because they can never seem to decide what to do with it. It always swings between OP and terrible.

But I also love that they dream big. They try to do what big box devs do with a tiny team. I respect that as its just what the VN team has been trying to do. Perhaps our goals are too lofty for us to do, but I still want to do them.

Fluke? No. GOIO is the only game of it's kind. Live or die by the team. But I do think GOIO has been balloon locked for awhile. Getting blended down. Some patches it manages to get away and rise for a moment, before getting blended again. What is worse is that most of the major problems which scared people away, happened during the huge sales. Each sale it was like a big goomba stomp. GOIO would become a hit, sell insanely well, then boom, blended + stomp. I think the last big sale was the only time we've really had a stable game. Trouble was, MM was keeping the balloon HP low to make sure it couldn't rise well. Now we're finally looking up again. GOIO is gaining momentum but I just can't help but wonder when the next pop will come?

[Dementio]

The game has generally become better, but its developers were never good at making its players feel as if they were playing a better game.

What Crafek is talking about is, I believe, a general dumping down of culture. Games advertisement nowadays consists of "pretty colors" and "super cool features" only to turn out as a remake of an older game and only contain these promised features on a minimum level, if the game has any of them at all. This is not all of today's games, but people generally don't care as they only want to look at 80k graphics with a 0.5k monitor, shooty shoot 360 noscope and blame everybody else for losing when they do. It is also happening in movies and, if I read the "Anime discussion"-thread correctly, in animes too, to a certain degree. Even our everyday technology is feeling it.

Everything is a success when marketing sells it.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Its not a big learning curve wall, its a competancy wall. The learning curve for the fundementals is actually not big at all. But to master, goes narrowly deep. However, the game expects you to follow, which if you dont, makes things go really badly.

[Mezhu]

Goio had the potential to be a truly unique game, not just in theme and setting, but in gameplay. It has all the necessary elements for a competitively successful game- easy to grab but without a skill ceiling, rewarding communication and tactical play. It had a meta that was flexible and not set-in-stone. People were always complaining about this or that being OP, but truth is that without any balance adjustment we had at least a year where different ships and builds became more or less prominent, simply due to people adjusting and improving.

I always thought that Muse should've promoted this aspect of the game more. Instead of silly youtube videos, with 'fun' online personas goofying around clueleslly, they could've taken the time to show how the game plays at a high level with promoted twitch streams, featured tournaments and utilities such as pov cameras, replays, pausing etc. The game was promoted to a sort of crowd that it naturally had no appeal to. We kept having huge population bursts with only a tiny bit staying, simply because they found the game to be nothing other than a PUG deathmatch where your own skill was largely irrelevant.

The features mentioned above did eventually come, but it was rather late. As with all games, players don't give second chances easily- especially so players that have already invested a lot of time and saw the game head towards a direction they didn't find appealing. Instead of crucial updates of this sort, as well as updates that actually offered new content to explore, experiment, and have fun with (such as new maps, modes, guns and ships), we got an endless series of self-canceling, largely unecessary balance updates and features. Maybe in an attempt to keep everyone happy, Muse has diverted their limited time and resources in getting many different things done instead of picking a specific direction, being bold with it and standing by it from start to end. The amount of ideas that were toyed without ever being properly implemented (or at implemented at all) is truly huge (gunner ammo, engineer tools, matchmaking, stamina, balance changes).

This last update, to me, makes even less sense than the rest. It nerfed mutliple guns (that were, mind you, deemed underwhelming in their exact same version some months ago), and then gave gunners the means to negate this. It gave pilots an omni-tool that largely destroyed the idea of specialization and counter-play that was prominent before. It gave engineers a totally out of place mechanic, that goes against the core element of timing your actions and being aware of your surroundings, by instead allowing you to sprint into position in a 20m² environment (seriously..). It dumbed down the flamethrower and the flare (I can't help but wonder who was unable to properly use the flare or counter the flamethrower after 30h of gameplay- if someone's that bad at the game, you don't adjust the game to his/her lack of skill, you give him/her the means to improve). What I also fail to understand is who this update was even targeted towards- previous versions were more or less the absolute peak of balance the game's ever been at.

To answer your question, no, I don't think the GOIO's beginnings were as glorious as you try to present them as. Balance was terrible, bugs were common, population was low- I will agree though that were was a point in time when I too thought GOIO is a gem, temporarily hidden, which will eventually rise to the glory it deserves. And it truly is (was?) a gem, but any chances of it ever being received as such are gone. Most of the updates were to me a waste of resources. The game's essentially the same as it was 1 and a half year ago- equally small content, with random patches of irrelevant or badly implemented features here and there. I don't want to sound rude or harsh- I appreciate the game for what it is and I loved all of my 2,000 plus hours playing it. I recognize Muse had an extremely difficult task to perform, being an indie company and all. I just wish launching the game after a long break would feel me with joy (as all other games I grew attached to do) instead of give me a bitter feeling of regret.

I guess some of you are still having fun, though, and the update seems to be well-received to the current playerbase of 200, so that's good. Maybe GOIO has good things yet to say, just none that I'm willing to listen.

edit: Maybe it's unfair to blame this on Muse. Maybe it indeed is just the nature of the game and the state of the industry that hurt it. I honestly don't know.

[Byron Cavendish]

Most of the updates were to me a waste of resources. The game's essentially the same as it was 1 and a half year ago- equally small content, with random patches of irrelevant or badly implemented features here and there.

Nail on the head...Muse take note.

[David Dire]

Honestly, this game is probably only alive because all the people that remained loyal to it. So instead of listening to them it seems Muse decided they wanted better sales than keeping their community which lifted them so much.

[GreyTea]

Honestly, this game is probably only alive because all the people that remained loyal to it. So instead of listening to them it seems Muse decided they wanted better sales than keeping their community which lifted them so much.

Match making
The active community changes a lot, thanks to those sales it brings it fresh people the retention rate is very low, so ask the question is why? One of the main complaints was Match time/ lobby time hence MM and forced timers to start a match,

Plus MM also deals with the lag issues and reports not only does it reduce lag on the servers because it took alot to constantly update the list especially when high volume of players, remember forced starts to matches? even though lag is still present for some,but no where near as much, and MM in theory will match players quicker than scrolling down through matches one person hops in then tells the rest to join on this lobby before someone else,

But with the low count in players it takes a while atm, and we know that it was intended for high volume of players with varying MMR which can only be achieved when we have a high number of players, and to get that we need promotion and sales,

an online indie game that's been around since late 2012, and is still actively rolling out patches and working towards content, good or bad the dedication is their, and of course it would not of happened with out the core people, 2000+ matches and 1000+ hours, who have been through it all, good and bad but believe me, everything gets read talked about but we have to look from different perspectives of both new and old players and obviously everyone is not going to be happy, 

I started of as a player picking this up in the sale went through comp scenes and ca road up till where i am now, just like Keyvias and meta originally did, people do understand but it is catering to everyone that the balance gets upset,

ship nerfs
Needed to happen gat mortar pyra kills under 6 seconds and anyone can pick it up and use it, 200m charges through open ground balloon shielding hydro up boom dead, and that was not balanced. Problem was it was so powerful the majority including myself used it all the time, people would laugh if you took a spire or a mobula, you were ram bait and a fool!! unless you were a certain GWTH player or your name is daniel , not now spires get used and mobulas to brawl and win alot more, in one of the recent releases on the website we showed the win ratio and the play rate of ships pyra was up their so it got tweaked, it can however be tweaked back if it gets underpowered where you can't win at all but it takes time,


feedback
With changes comes new metas  and people might hate it but keeps it fresh to a degree until the next one comes around and its tweaked again, but yes a large focus is going to be on new players, because that is what a game constantly needs, and i am sorry it feels like the vets are forgotten that is not the case, maybe holding a community skype call  with a mix of players will work to get calm feedback like in this thread, rather than MUSE SUCKS RUINING THE GAME, because that is never anyones intention, people work hard and to have it all in ruins and for nothing doesn't serve any purpose,



So this is just my unofficial 2 cents to try and explain best i can decisions and reasons, and if i don't know i will find out, because the core players are leaving the familiar faces i am use to seeing are no longer here and the frustration is clear, but with communication i think some of this can be resolved, and maybe players will come back in time, but i know personally i don't want to see the vets leave or to have anyone think bad intentions if their is somthing i can at least do or say,

Thanks Grey