Balance problem - metamidion

[Mean Machine]

However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot,  is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.

So? Same is with guns. It's a lot easier and faster to learn how to fire gatling or flamer than hades or lj and i don't see people complaining gatling is op or unbalanced.
Pretty much every ship in game can wreck metamidions with the right loadout, but yes you will need more time to master those. But hey, more effort - more reward. Fair, don't you think?

No, the guns are balanced fairly decently, especially since the flame nerf I saw that went out. The risk/reward factor for a gat is balanced. Sure you have great hull strip, but you have mid range at best and low accuracy. LJ can render a ship nearly useless in less than a clip, but it is very tough to fire. Now, the effort I needed when I first started to play guns nearly a year ago was incredibly minute in comparison to my results. This was especially obvious when I beat pilots who are without a doubt better than me, but I was able to win with little effort needed. Have I sometimes beat player who are better than me with other ship? Sure, but it was with much more effort and the fact that SAC was training their engies bootcamp style.

I know guns are fairly balanced, I just used your logic and compared. You're saying the risk/reward for gat is balanced. So is for pyra. If you get close with metamidion you can be either in most efficient and deadly position or you can find yourself pretty much helpless. Read what replaceable said again. if you get close to hwachafish, they can disable every single component on your ship. After that, you can only pray that they wont be able to finish you off for some reason. Or you could charge a mobula and they will dodge your ram and you will lose arcs and end up in terrible position sometimes. Junker can also dodge pyramidion charge with a bit of luck and skill while keeping gun arcs on them. Galleon can just melt you before you even approach and most of the times you dont want to ram them, so that's one big potential damage loss from metamidion. And so on...

Every ship can be weak or powerful, it's all about  getting good engagement and knowing how to properly put your guns to use.
I don't know what to tell you man, I'm never worried when I see metamidion in enemy team. Hell, I'm more worried about carro/flamer pyra, now that's op pyra if there is any. Doesn't require absolutely any skill to shoot, while your engineers will cry if they are not experienced and ships starts burning and balloon dropping.

[OnlyMan.]

Sure, there are absolutely ways to do kill a meta. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is the skill difference needed is absurd. When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.

[Kamoba]

Making it ideal for new pilots to learn in and then they can move onto other more specialised ships and tactics.
If only newbies realised Pyramidion is the way to start and left Galleons alone.

And it is not easy to exploit, it's just easy to point forward. More often than not in a 1v1 I will win because the trifecter exploit is not well known enough to exploit and the people who do beat me 1v1 in a pyra have posted here on this thread already :)everyone else relies on their allies...
Edit: except Spud Nick, he has not posted here yet but I'm certain he'd beat me hands down 1v1...

And just to add to my point, Pyramidion is no easier exploited than the other ships as it's all about learning the way to use the ship correctly. 'Metamidions' which seems to be a title used for any close range midion except carro flamer, relies on getting and killing quick, you see a midion attacking an ally you get behind the midion and drop his engines, you're almost guaranteed the kill...

[OnlyMan.]

First off, I think the game is currently better balanced than it ever has been before. I see quite a large variety of ship builds in the matches I play in public and competitive matches these days. I particularly don't see swarms of metamideons in public nor in competitive matches. So I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit, as your observations just don't reflect my personal experiences.
Regarding competitive play I do not consider the Metamideon to be dominant at all. That's really a thing of the past. There are just so many builds which can easily handle metamideons - hwachafishes, Meta-Galleon, Junkers in general and many more. Sure a metamideon is good for a kill if it isn't dealt with swiftly, but the same is true for many other kill-builds.

The metamideon is and always has been a very straight forward and easy to run ship. It takes relatively little effort* to put it in a state where it can get a kill even on very experienced ships. It's a noobfriendly ship and remains useful in the higher tiers. I don't see a problem with that. In fact I like GoIO has got a ship that's easy to pick up and worth to master.

Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.

This argument pops up in almost every squid vs Pyra debte, but personally I've never considered the positioning against squids to be problematic for pyras. This explicitly includes well flown and crewed squids.

A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe pilots should nerfed?

Yes, the phoenix claw is wildly regarded as overpowered. The pyramideon is one of the ships which benefits most from it.

*it's easy to get the pyra into a state where it can operate at 80% of its power (which is sufficient to perform decently in most public matches). Squeezing out the last 20% of power the pyra has got to offer takes a lot of skill though.

I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout, without them having to use considerably more effort than then the higher skilled players. I would say the same about your experiences not reflecting what I've seen. If you look at the top tier competitive game, everything is balanced in terms of skill(or risk) to reward. Starcraft, for example, has strategies that are very simple and deadly. They are also noob friendly. How do you balance the fact that they exist? They will only work within their specific role, and if they do not either just win the game, or cause massive damage, the other player can easily win. Simple to use, highly aggressive. Sounds like a metamidion. So how do you balance it? If it doesnt do what its made to do, it should then be faced with very obvious and exploitable weaknesses. A metamidion is meant to go in fast and kill fast. Thats why I said to nerf steering. If a player is able to overcome its strength, it should then be very difficult for the meta to put itself on even ground. Thats not the case, though. Hwatcha fish, galleons, meta junkers. I've faced them all. Even when they are piloted by incredibly skilled pilots. Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable, even if it has flames. If a meta is out-manuvered, I simple reverse with kero, re-align guns, then go again.

[Indreams]

Sometime in the past, Muse changed how hydro and chute so that they are ineffective on the more massive ships, namely pyra and galleon.

Since than, the third dimension has been among the greatest enemy of the metamidion.

Anyways, the fact that greased gat mortar can one clip any ship is a little overpowered. But the fact is, gat mortar has close to no disable power. It's possible to disable the metamidion or avoid it vertically.


pyramidion v pyramidion - fair fight.

goldfish v pyramidion - goldfish can disable (blend or hwacha) pyramidion.

junker v pyramidion - the versatile junker has many options (flame, counter gat mortar, vertical maneuver, etc.)

mobula v pyramidion - mobula can simply fly over or under the pyramidion.

galleon v pyramidion - if the pyra is close enough to kill a galleon, the gallon is close enough to full hwacha, blender, or tactical ram.

squid v pyramidion - no brainer, squid can outmaneuver pyramidion very easily.

spire v pyramidion - if the pyra has close ranged to you, you've done something wrong. (Unless this was your plan all along. If so, you know what to do).


So pyramidion op, but better crews can easily counter it. Also, take into account that the pyramidion has one of the smallest permahull in the game.

Teamwork op,


Thank you for reading,

Indreams.

[Wundsalz]

When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.

I'm not sure whether or not I get you right here, but if you state metamideons are problematic for the ongoing MLG torunemant, I firmly disagree.
If I recall it correctly a single metamideon has been used once in a single match in a single best of three encounter by one of the teams which have won their bracket and will play in the finals this weekend. Hence I'd argue the pyra wasn't overused there and I also disagree with the metamideon is problematic for the balance of competitive matches in general.

I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout.

Why not? It's not like picking a metamideon wins you matches against experienced players. But if a ship, as green as its crew might be, gets its guns in operational range on you with a metamideon, they surely deserve a chance to kill on you.

Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable

Yeah, here is another thing: if you fail to disable a ship in gat-mortar range with a hwacha volley you very well deserve to be extremely vulnerable.

[RedRoach]

I think i figured it out now.

The issue is that lazy players can take a pyramdion and kill things with it without trying half as hard as a higher level competitive player simply because metamidion is the op minigun that takes half an hour to kill even if the person using it can't figure out why his engines keep breaking while he uses moonshine.

It's not that the metamidion is unstoppable. It's the way an idiot can simply take it and start pub stomping competitive clans.

If you're wrong, correct me, but this is what I think the OP is about.

I have nothing to say to this except flying higher than a pyramidion is my fail-safe for fighting pyramidions. Or any ship at all.

[Kamoba]

I would hardly say lazy players, the ship being easy to learn makes it an ideal starter ship for learning pilots, but it can easily be sabotaged by one crew member, I've had it before where a buff engineer kept leaving the mortar to 'help' repairs downstairs... Just as the Gatling strip off armour, meaning the crew need to learn the importance of not jus team work but team synergy, without it the pyra fails, easy to learn yes, easy to teach importance of ship roles, ideal starter ship.
Lazy pilot someone who has to teach each crew member their role within the first minute of the match, before taking on the enemy?

The entire reason I won't take my pyra with pugs anymore... Just one guy is all it takes to sabotage the ship... Even if they have good intentions.

[OnlyMan.]

I think i figured it out now.

The issue is that lazy players can take a pyramdion and kill things with it without trying half as hard as a higher level competitive player simply because metamidion is the op minigun that takes half an hour to kill even if the person using it can't figure out why his engines keep breaking while he uses moonshine.

It's not that the metamidion is unstoppable. It's the way an idiot can simply take it and start pub stomping competitive clans.

If you're wrong, correct me, but this is what I think the OP is about.

I have nothing to say to this except flying higher than a pyramidion is my fail-safe for fighting pyramidions. Or any ship at all.

Yes! But not laziness really. Just skill level required. A pyra is very easy to fly and to maintain. Thats fine, but its weaknesses are not reflecting its strengths. And I say to Kamboa, thats the same with every other ship. Like when people say use  hwatcha, disable guns, etc. Thats for all ships. A Mobula is just as hurt as a pyra if it takes a merc to engines or a hwatcha to the face. But mobula faces a lot of problems of its own. Its width profile makes it easy for gat, its large balloon makes it easy for LJ and carronade. What special weaknesses does the pyra have? Something that is large enough to be exploited by simple weapon choices? Again, I dont think that the pyra should be harder to maintain or should change its layout, but definitely nerf the turning ability, so if a pyra is outmaneuvered, that will put it in a position where the pyra is at a large disadvantage. The pyra will still fill its roll as a fast killer, but the skill level required to use it will have a higher ceiling

[nhbearit]

So there seems to be two major omissions in the thought processes of anyone who says the metamidion is op. The first is that it is incredibly easy to get out of its gun's arcs, you just have to fly toward the darned thing. If you are less than twenty meters off the pyra's right side, then you are basically invulnerable. Twenty meters off the pyra's left side is pretty safe too, provided you can keep a good Chem cycle going. One thing to keep in mind though, if you circle all the way around to the back of a pyra, you have given the pyra a way to escape. Avoid being directly behind it unless you have some heavy disable power on your ship.

The second omission is that the pyra is one of the easiest ships to kill. Pyramidions have decent armor and decent hull, this is actually a very bad combination. Because their armor is only decent, it is actually pretty easy to break. Their hull is also decent, which means that it is easily one clipped by a mortar. Oh, and because pyras have decent armor, it takes too long to rebuild the armor, a main engie simply can't repair the armor faster then a mortar can kill the pyra.

[Indreams]

Yea, Pyramidion's weakness?

The unarmed starboard side.


Sure, phoenix claw can compensate, but it'll still take a few seconds to reposition itself properly.

And the way ladders work, it'll take a few seconds for pyra crew to respond back and forth from top deck to bottom deck.

[OnlyMan.]

When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.

I'm not sure whether or not I get you right here, but if you state metamideons are problematic for the ongoing MLG torunemant, I firmly disagree.
If I recall it correctly a single metamideon has been used once in a single match in a single best of three encounter by one of the teams which have won their bracket and will play in the finals this weekend. Hence I'd argue the pyra wasn't overused there and I also disagree with the metamideon is problematic for the balance of competitive matches in general.

I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout.

Why not? It's not like picking a metamideon wins you matches against experienced players. But if a ship, as green as its crew might be, gets its guns in operational range on you with a metamideon, they surely deserve a chance to kill on you.

Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable

Yeah, here is another thing: if you fail to disable a ship in gat-mortar range with a hwacha volley you very well deserve to be extremely vulnerable.

I'm not referring to the actual competitions, I was just providing a time to base the conversation. Picking a metamidion will not secure you a win, but it will definitely help. As I said earlier. I was beating players who were definitely better than me with mediocre effort.  And I agree with you, if you miss a hwacha shot, you should be punished, but it is a lot harder to punish a metamidion by out maneuvering their arcs.

[OnlyMan.]

So there seems to be two major omissions in the thought processes of anyone who says the metamidion is op. The first is that it is incredibly easy to get out of its gun's arcs, you just have to fly toward the darned thing. If you are less than twenty meters off the pyra's right side, then you are basically invulnerable. Twenty meters off the pyra's left side is pretty safe too, provided you can keep a good Chem cycle going. One thing to keep in mind though, if you circle all the way around to the back of a pyra, you have given the pyra a way to escape. Avoid being directly behind it unless you have some heavy disable power on your ship.

The second omission is that the pyra is one of the easiest ships to kill. Pyramidions have decent armor and decent hull, this is actually a very bad combination. Because their armor is only decent, it is actually pretty easy to break. Their hull is also decent, which means that it is easily one clipped by a mortar. Oh, and because pyras have decent armor, it takes too long to rebuild the armor, a main engie simply can't repair the armor faster then a mortar can kill the pyra.

The problem of simply flying towards it, is that you are getting whiddled down the entire time its approaching. Plus, this is assuming that the pyra is just going to sit there and let you get to taht side. Assuming you get to the side, then you have to get your own guns in arc. While that's happening, the pyra is still manuvering. While it may be  easy to kill, it is also easy to maintain. And you can rebuild a hull in time to not die to mortar.

[OnlyMan.]

Yea, Pyramidion's weakness?

The unarmed starboard side.


Sure, phoenix claw can compensate, but it'll still take a few seconds to reposition itself properly.

And the way ladders work, it'll take a few seconds for pyra crew to respond back and forth from top deck to bottom deck.

As with every other ship, other than the squid (to a certain extent).

[Wundsalz]

Picking a metamidion will not secure you a win, but it will definitely help.

As a general statement this is just false. The metamideon is a good pick in many situations and it's certainly among the most versatile builds, but in the end of the day picking a metamideon can be a bad call on certain maps against certain ships - just like any other build.

While it may be  easy to kill, it is also easy to maintain. And you can rebuild a hull in time to not die to mortar.

It is impossible to rebuild a broken pyra hull armor with two spanners whacking it as soon as it goes down while a buffed greased mortar is hitting you.