Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: OnlyMan. on November 19, 2014, 07:14:28 am
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Hey guys. So just popped into Guns after taking a 3 month break, due to frustration over the seemingly lack of balance in the game. I came back. Same problems, different day. The problems all revolve around the metamidion. It is honestly a blight on what could be a perfect game. A ship, with unmatched killing power, who can maneuver amazingly, and has a pretty decent hull health. It is sad, when I am see players with twice the skill of others, lose to choosing the wrong ship. How can this be fixed? Nerf the hell out of the maneuverability. The pyramidion should be like a bullet. When its on target, it is absolutely deadly, but when juked, does not have the ability to phoenix claw right to where it needed to be. I understand that the ship should be noobie friendly, but that doesn't mean allow new players to compensate for lack of skill. As someone who cared enough about the game to start and assist with getting this game into MLG as well as participate in its competitive scene, it is extremely frusturating to have to deal with a ship that is over powered and takes considerably less skill to be good at compared to every other ship. Sure, at the top level of play, the metamidion loses SOME of its power, but in random ladder, it is a game breaker. I'm not trying to be a pest, I'm only sharing why a player who regarded this game so highly, had to stop playing out of sheer frustration over one ship. Thanks for your time
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I don't know..I see Metamidion dieing to all sorta of builds.. in random match maker games.. but yeah it is a very straight forward option.
That said, the devs have said the next ship balance thing will be.. Spire + squid buff.. of some kind.. and a pyra nerf.. of some kind.. They didn't say what they were.
So it may be less effective after that.
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However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot, is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.
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Metamidions are easy to crew and pilot if you have a crew who will not run around like headless chickens... add an AI engineer or a gungineer who insists on two people being downstairs the metamidion looses all of its potency..
That said as a metamidion pilot, it has a lot of weaknesses, just because other pilots do not exploit those weaknesses often enough does not make the ship itself over-powered...
Would be interesting to see how the hand of balance intends to balance it out a bit more, but once that happens, you'll never see the pyra in the hands of PUGs (pick up groups) again, which would be a shame...
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All you have to do is get out of arcs, plus the pyra is pretty weak, less acceleration, rotation speed, vertical acceleration/top speed than other ships. And plus it lacks disable, so take a carronade and/or an Artemis, get rid of the guns and it can't win.
Fly a catfish. (Hwatcha goldfish.)
Take meta junker (hades/art/art, gat/ mortar, carronade/banshee, gattling/banshee)
Fly a mobula and dodge them. Then use their poor turning speed and your pretty good acceleration to get away from them.
Overpower them with the firing power of a galleon.
Knock them off arcs with mines.
Take a carrot pyramidion (carronade, Artemis.)
Flamer carro pyramidion.
Out range them.
Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.
Try a dual gat, heavy flak spire, with a mine, that's harder to pull off but since a pyramidion is almost all hull, they can die to this pretty good.
It's not over powered, it has its place, and it has its counters. Plus I'm seeing less Metamidions these days if I'm honest...
I will admit though the skill floor to use one is pretty low, but still it can be beaten regardless of this.
It's important to note that gat mortar wrecks pyramidions because of all the hull they have to hit, fly at your own risk.
Speaking of which, you can block shots with every ships balloon except a pyra.
Bit of a mess of a reply but hey.
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"Metamidions are easy to crew and pilot if you have a crew who will not run around like headless chickens... add an AI engineer or a gungineer who insists on two people being downstairs the metamidion looses all of its potency."
That is all ships.
"That said as a metamidion pilot, it has a lot of weaknesses, just because other pilots do not exploit those weaknesses often enough does not make the ship itself over-powered..."
I have spent more time piloting a metamidion more than any other ship, as that was my main ship in competition for a long time (until Tropo thought I was not stupid enough top screw up) Does it have weaknesses? Of course, but in terms of weakness compared to strengths, the meta is very imbalanced.
"Would be interesting to see how the hand of balance intends to balance it out a bit more, but once that happens, you'll never see the pyra in the hands of PUGs (pick up groups) again, which would be a shame..."
No, we should start seeing more spires, junkers, mobula etc. I'm not saying that the metamidion is perfect. I am saying the skill needed to do well with one..is really not that high.
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Edit: Balloon block in everything except a pyramidion, and a galleon.
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All you have to do is get out of arcs, plus the pyra is pretty weak, less acceleration, rotation speed, vertical acceleration/top speed than other ships. And plus it lacks disable, so take a carronade and/or an Artemis, get rid of the guns and it can't win.
Fly a catfish. (Hwatcha goldfish.)
Take meta junker (hades/art/art, gat/ mortar, carronade/banshee, gattling/banshee)
Fly a mobula and dodge them. Then use their poor turning speed and your pretty good acceleration to get away from them.
Overpower them with the firing power of a galleon.
Knock them off arcs with mines.
Take a carrot pyramidion (carronade, Artemis.)
Flamer carro pyramidion.
Out range them.
Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.
Try a dual gat, heavy flak spire, with a mine, that's harder to pull off but since a pyramidion is almost all hull, they can die to this pretty good.
It's not over powered, it has its place, and it has its counters. Plus I'm seeing less Metamidions these days if I'm honest...
I will admit though the skill floor to use one is pretty low, but still it can be beaten regardless of this.
It's important to note that gat mortar wrecks pyramidions because of all the hull they have to hit, fly at your own risk.
Speaking of which, you can block shots with every ships balloon except a pyra.
Bit of a mess of a reply but hey.
Getting out of arcs should be the right answer...but with phoenix claw and the gat mortar having exceptional arcs in almost all directions, its not that hard for a meta to stay on target. Of course it can be beaten, however, the effort/skill needed to beat one in a mobula, for instance, is much higher than vice versa. Also, blocking shots with a meta is pretty unnecessary most of the time, due to its compact nature.
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However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot, is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.
So? Same is with guns. It's a lot easier and faster to learn how to fire gatling or flamer than hades or lj and i don't see people complaining gatling is op or unbalanced.
Pretty much every ship in game can wreck metamidions with the right loadout, but yes you will need more time to master those. But hey, more effort - more reward. Fair, don't you think?
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I'm talking about blocking the shots from a metamidion in a different ship, it can protect you from damage.
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However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot, is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.
So? Same is with guns. It's a lot easier and faster to learn how to fire gatling or flamer than hades or lj and i don't see people complaining gatling is op or unbalanced.
Pretty much every ship in game can wreck metamidions with the right loadout, but yes you will need more time to master those. But hey, more effort - more reward. Fair, don't you think?
No, the guns are balanced fairly decently, especially since the flame nerf I saw that went out. The risk/reward factor for a gat is balanced. Sure you have great hull strip, but you have mid range at best and low accuracy. LJ can render a ship nearly useless in less than a clip, but it is very tough to fire. Now, the effort I needed when I first started to play guns nearly a year ago was incredibly minute in comparison to my results. This was especially obvious when I beat pilots who are without a doubt better than me, but I was able to win with little effort needed. Have I sometimes beat player who are better than me with other ship? Sure, but it was with much more effort and the fact that SAC was training their engies bootcamp style.
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I have never had an issue with metamidions.
Then again, I have never flown AGAINST a metamidion that I remember being a problem. I think there might be a picture or two of me winning with one, but I don't recall getting stomped repeatedly by one.
I like to think that if you pop the balloon of a metamidion, the ship gets too low to try to arc it's guns. And most ships (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only the galleon is missing this) have a forward facing gun that can be used to pop balloons.
For unexperienced crews trying to use the "low-risk, high-reward" weapon without proper chem spray, there's always the flamer, which disables guns and causes everything to be sent into a beautiful scorching inferno.
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Balloon popping is a effective tool, yes. However, the balloon is right next to where the gat usually is, making it extremely easy to repair then resume fighting. Thats not really the issue in my eyes, though. The fact that you can keep arcs incredibly well, despite the ship being made to work almost as a projectile
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A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe pilots should nerfed? :)
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First off, I think the game is currently better balanced than it ever has been before. I see quite a large variety of ship builds in the matches I play in public and competitive matches these days. I particularly don't see swarms of metamideons in public nor in competitive matches. So I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit, as your observations just don't reflect my personal experiences.
Regarding competitive play I do not consider the Metamideon to be dominant at all. That's really a thing of the past. There are just so many builds which can easily handle metamideons - hwachafishes, Meta-Galleon, Junkers in general and many more. Sure a metamideon is good for a kill if it isn't dealt with swiftly, but the same is true for many other kill-builds.
The metamideon is and always has been a very straight forward and easy to run ship. It takes relatively little effort* to put it in a state where it can get a kill even on very experienced ships. It's a noobfriendly ship and remains useful in the higher tiers. I don't see a problem with that. In fact I like GoIO has got a ship that's easy to pick up and worth to master.
Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.
This argument pops up in almost every squid vs Pyra debte, but personally I've never considered the positioning against squids to be problematic for pyras. This explicitly includes well flown and crewed squids.
A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe pilots should nerfed? :)
Yes, the phoenix claw is wildly regarded as overpowered (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4423.0.html). The pyramideon is one of the ships which benefits most from it.
*it's easy to get the pyra into a state where it can operate at 80% of its power (which is sufficient to perform decently in most public matches). Squeezing out the last 20% of power the pyra has got to offer takes a lot of skill though.
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However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot, is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.
So? Same is with guns. It's a lot easier and faster to learn how to fire gatling or flamer than hades or lj and i don't see people complaining gatling is op or unbalanced.
Pretty much every ship in game can wreck metamidions with the right loadout, but yes you will need more time to master those. But hey, more effort - more reward. Fair, don't you think?
No, the guns are balanced fairly decently, especially since the flame nerf I saw that went out. The risk/reward factor for a gat is balanced. Sure you have great hull strip, but you have mid range at best and low accuracy. LJ can render a ship nearly useless in less than a clip, but it is very tough to fire. Now, the effort I needed when I first started to play guns nearly a year ago was incredibly minute in comparison to my results. This was especially obvious when I beat pilots who are without a doubt better than me, but I was able to win with little effort needed. Have I sometimes beat player who are better than me with other ship? Sure, but it was with much more effort and the fact that SAC was training their engies bootcamp style.
I know guns are fairly balanced, I just used your logic and compared. You're saying the risk/reward for gat is balanced. So is for pyra. If you get close with metamidion you can be either in most efficient and deadly position or you can find yourself pretty much helpless. Read what replaceable said again. if you get close to hwachafish, they can disable every single component on your ship. After that, you can only pray that they wont be able to finish you off for some reason. Or you could charge a mobula and they will dodge your ram and you will lose arcs and end up in terrible position sometimes. Junker can also dodge pyramidion charge with a bit of luck and skill while keeping gun arcs on them. Galleon can just melt you before you even approach and most of the times you dont want to ram them, so that's one big potential damage loss from metamidion. And so on...
Every ship can be weak or powerful, it's all about getting good engagement and knowing how to properly put your guns to use.
I don't know what to tell you man, I'm never worried when I see metamidion in enemy team. Hell, I'm more worried about carro/flamer pyra, now that's op pyra if there is any. Doesn't require absolutely any skill to shoot, while your engineers will cry if they are not experienced and ships starts burning and balloon dropping.
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Sure, there are absolutely ways to do kill a meta. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is the skill difference needed is absurd. When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.
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Making it ideal for new pilots to learn in and then they can move onto other more specialised ships and tactics.
If only newbies realised Pyramidion is the way to start and left Galleons alone.
And it is not easy to exploit, it's just easy to point forward. More often than not in a 1v1 I will win because the trifecter exploit is not well known enough to exploit and the people who do beat me 1v1 in a pyra have posted here on this thread already :)everyone else relies on their allies...
Edit: except Spud Nick, he has not posted here yet but I'm certain he'd beat me hands down 1v1...
And just to add to my point, Pyramidion is no easier exploited than the other ships as it's all about learning the way to use the ship correctly. 'Metamidions' which seems to be a title used for any close range midion except carro flamer, relies on getting and killing quick, you see a midion attacking an ally you get behind the midion and drop his engines, you're almost guaranteed the kill...
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First off, I think the game is currently better balanced than it ever has been before. I see quite a large variety of ship builds in the matches I play in public and competitive matches these days. I particularly don't see swarms of metamideons in public nor in competitive matches. So I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit, as your observations just don't reflect my personal experiences.
Regarding competitive play I do not consider the Metamideon to be dominant at all. That's really a thing of the past. There are just so many builds which can easily handle metamideons - hwachafishes, Meta-Galleon, Junkers in general and many more. Sure a metamideon is good for a kill if it isn't dealt with swiftly, but the same is true for many other kill-builds.
The metamideon is and always has been a very straight forward and easy to run ship. It takes relatively little effort* to put it in a state where it can get a kill even on very experienced ships. It's a noobfriendly ship and remains useful in the higher tiers. I don't see a problem with that. In fact I like GoIO has got a ship that's easy to pick up and worth to master.
Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.
This argument pops up in almost every squid vs Pyra debte, but personally I've never considered the positioning against squids to be problematic for pyras. This explicitly includes well flown and crewed squids.
A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe pilots should nerfed? :)
Yes, the phoenix claw is wildly regarded as overpowered (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4423.0.html). The pyramideon is one of the ships which benefits most from it.
*it's easy to get the pyra into a state where it can operate at 80% of its power (which is sufficient to perform decently in most public matches). Squeezing out the last 20% of power the pyra has got to offer takes a lot of skill though.
I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout, without them having to use considerably more effort than then the higher skilled players. I would say the same about your experiences not reflecting what I've seen. If you look at the top tier competitive game, everything is balanced in terms of skill(or risk) to reward. Starcraft, for example, has strategies that are very simple and deadly. They are also noob friendly. How do you balance the fact that they exist? They will only work within their specific role, and if they do not either just win the game, or cause massive damage, the other player can easily win. Simple to use, highly aggressive. Sounds like a metamidion. So how do you balance it? If it doesnt do what its made to do, it should then be faced with very obvious and exploitable weaknesses. A metamidion is meant to go in fast and kill fast. Thats why I said to nerf steering. If a player is able to overcome its strength, it should then be very difficult for the meta to put itself on even ground. Thats not the case, though. Hwatcha fish, galleons, meta junkers. I've faced them all. Even when they are piloted by incredibly skilled pilots. Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable, even if it has flames. If a meta is out-manuvered, I simple reverse with kero, re-align guns, then go again.
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Sometime in the past, Muse changed how hydro and chute so that they are ineffective on the more massive ships, namely pyra and galleon.
Since than, the third dimension has been among the greatest enemy of the metamidion.
Anyways, the fact that greased gat mortar can one clip any ship is a little overpowered. But the fact is, gat mortar has close to no disable power. It's possible to disable the metamidion or avoid it vertically.
pyramidion v pyramidion - fair fight.
goldfish v pyramidion - goldfish can disable (blend or hwacha) pyramidion.
junker v pyramidion - the versatile junker has many options (flame, counter gat mortar, vertical maneuver, etc.)
mobula v pyramidion - mobula can simply fly over or under the pyramidion.
galleon v pyramidion - if the pyra is close enough to kill a galleon, the gallon is close enough to full hwacha, blender, or tactical ram.
squid v pyramidion - no brainer, squid can outmaneuver pyramidion very easily.
spire v pyramidion - if the pyra has close ranged to you, you've done something wrong. (Unless this was your plan all along. If so, you know what to do).
So pyramidion op, but better crews can easily counter it. Also, take into account that the pyramidion has one of the smallest permahull in the game.
Teamwork op,
Thank you for reading,
Indreams.
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When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.
I'm not sure whether or not I get you right here, but if you state metamideons are problematic for the ongoing MLG torunemant, I firmly disagree.
If I recall it correctly a single metamideon has been used once in a single match in a single best of three encounter by one of the teams which have won their bracket and will play in the finals this weekend. Hence I'd argue the pyra wasn't overused there and I also disagree with the metamideon is problematic for the balance of competitive matches in general.
I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout.
Why not? It's not like picking a metamideon wins you matches against experienced players. But if a ship, as green as its crew might be, gets its guns in operational range on you with a metamideon, they surely deserve a chance to kill on you.
Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable
Yeah, here is another thing: if you fail to disable a ship in gat-mortar range with a hwacha volley you very well deserve to be extremely vulnerable.
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I think i figured it out now.
The issue is that lazy players can take a pyramdion and kill things with it without trying half as hard as a higher level competitive player simply because metamidion is the op minigun that takes half an hour to kill even if the person using it can't figure out why his engines keep breaking while he uses moonshine.
It's not that the metamidion is unstoppable. It's the way an idiot can simply take it and start pub stomping competitive clans.
If you're wrong, correct me, but this is what I think the OP is about.
I have nothing to say to this except flying higher than a pyramidion is my fail-safe for fighting pyramidions. Or any ship at all.
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I would hardly say lazy players, the ship being easy to learn makes it an ideal starter ship for learning pilots, but it can easily be sabotaged by one crew member, I've had it before where a buff engineer kept leaving the mortar to 'help' repairs downstairs... Just as the Gatling strip off armour, meaning the crew need to learn the importance of not jus team work but team synergy, without it the pyra fails, easy to learn yes, easy to teach importance of ship roles, ideal starter ship.
Lazy pilot someone who has to teach each crew member their role within the first minute of the match, before taking on the enemy?
The entire reason I won't take my pyra with pugs anymore... Just one guy is all it takes to sabotage the ship... Even if they have good intentions.
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I think i figured it out now.
The issue is that lazy players can take a pyramdion and kill things with it without trying half as hard as a higher level competitive player simply because metamidion is the op minigun that takes half an hour to kill even if the person using it can't figure out why his engines keep breaking while he uses moonshine.
It's not that the metamidion is unstoppable. It's the way an idiot can simply take it and start pub stomping competitive clans.
If you're wrong, correct me, but this is what I think the OP is about.
I have nothing to say to this except flying higher than a pyramidion is my fail-safe for fighting pyramidions. Or any ship at all.
Yes! But not laziness really. Just skill level required. A pyra is very easy to fly and to maintain. Thats fine, but its weaknesses are not reflecting its strengths. And I say to Kamboa, thats the same with every other ship. Like when people say use hwatcha, disable guns, etc. Thats for all ships. A Mobula is just as hurt as a pyra if it takes a merc to engines or a hwatcha to the face. But mobula faces a lot of problems of its own. Its width profile makes it easy for gat, its large balloon makes it easy for LJ and carronade. What special weaknesses does the pyra have? Something that is large enough to be exploited by simple weapon choices? Again, I dont think that the pyra should be harder to maintain or should change its layout, but definitely nerf the turning ability, so if a pyra is outmaneuvered, that will put it in a position where the pyra is at a large disadvantage. The pyra will still fill its roll as a fast killer, but the skill level required to use it will have a higher ceiling
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So there seems to be two major omissions in the thought processes of anyone who says the metamidion is op. The first is that it is incredibly easy to get out of its gun's arcs, you just have to fly toward the darned thing. If you are less than twenty meters off the pyra's right side, then you are basically invulnerable. Twenty meters off the pyra's left side is pretty safe too, provided you can keep a good Chem cycle going. One thing to keep in mind though, if you circle all the way around to the back of a pyra, you have given the pyra a way to escape. Avoid being directly behind it unless you have some heavy disable power on your ship.
The second omission is that the pyra is one of the easiest ships to kill. Pyramidions have decent armor and decent hull, this is actually a very bad combination. Because their armor is only decent, it is actually pretty easy to break. Their hull is also decent, which means that it is easily one clipped by a mortar. Oh, and because pyras have decent armor, it takes too long to rebuild the armor, a main engie simply can't repair the armor faster then a mortar can kill the pyra.
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Yea, Pyramidion's weakness?
The unarmed starboard side.
Sure, phoenix claw can compensate, but it'll still take a few seconds to reposition itself properly.
And the way ladders work, it'll take a few seconds for pyra crew to respond back and forth from top deck to bottom deck.
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When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.
I'm not sure whether or not I get you right here, but if you state metamideons are problematic for the ongoing MLG torunemant, I firmly disagree.
If I recall it correctly a single metamideon has been used once in a single match in a single best of three encounter by one of the teams which have won their bracket and will play in the finals this weekend. Hence I'd argue the pyra wasn't overused there and I also disagree with the metamideon is problematic for the balance of competitive matches in general.
I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout.
Why not? It's not like picking a metamideon wins you matches against experienced players. But if a ship, as green as its crew might be, gets its guns in operational range on you with a metamideon, they surely deserve a chance to kill on you.
Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable
Yeah, here is another thing: if you fail to disable a ship in gat-mortar range with a hwacha volley you very well deserve to be extremely vulnerable.
I'm not referring to the actual competitions, I was just providing a time to base the conversation. Picking a metamidion will not secure you a win, but it will definitely help. As I said earlier. I was beating players who were definitely better than me with mediocre effort. And I agree with you, if you miss a hwacha shot, you should be punished, but it is a lot harder to punish a metamidion by out maneuvering their arcs.
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So there seems to be two major omissions in the thought processes of anyone who says the metamidion is op. The first is that it is incredibly easy to get out of its gun's arcs, you just have to fly toward the darned thing. If you are less than twenty meters off the pyra's right side, then you are basically invulnerable. Twenty meters off the pyra's left side is pretty safe too, provided you can keep a good Chem cycle going. One thing to keep in mind though, if you circle all the way around to the back of a pyra, you have given the pyra a way to escape. Avoid being directly behind it unless you have some heavy disable power on your ship.
The second omission is that the pyra is one of the easiest ships to kill. Pyramidions have decent armor and decent hull, this is actually a very bad combination. Because their armor is only decent, it is actually pretty easy to break. Their hull is also decent, which means that it is easily one clipped by a mortar. Oh, and because pyras have decent armor, it takes too long to rebuild the armor, a main engie simply can't repair the armor faster then a mortar can kill the pyra.
The problem of simply flying towards it, is that you are getting whiddled down the entire time its approaching. Plus, this is assuming that the pyra is just going to sit there and let you get to taht side. Assuming you get to the side, then you have to get your own guns in arc. While that's happening, the pyra is still manuvering. While it may be easy to kill, it is also easy to maintain. And you can rebuild a hull in time to not die to mortar.
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Yea, Pyramidion's weakness?
The unarmed starboard side.
Sure, phoenix claw can compensate, but it'll still take a few seconds to reposition itself properly.
And the way ladders work, it'll take a few seconds for pyra crew to respond back and forth from top deck to bottom deck.
As with every other ship, other than the squid (to a certain extent).
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Picking a metamidion will not secure you a win, but it will definitely help.
As a general statement this is just false. The metamideon is a good pick in many situations and it's certainly among the most versatile builds, but in the end of the day picking a metamideon can be a bad call on certain maps against certain ships - just like any other build.
While it may be easy to kill, it is also easy to maintain. And you can rebuild a hull in time to not die to mortar.
It is impossible to rebuild a broken pyra hull armor with two spanners whacking it as soon as it goes down while a buffed greased mortar is hitting you.
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Out of pure interest, what do (or did, since you appear to go waaayyy back) you use against metamidions? Another metamidion? A brawlerfish? Greased in the mortar? Hydrogen dodges?
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I like to think that the Metamidion in competitive is only ever effective when its enemy pilots don't know what they are doing.
Yes, Metamidions are easy to learn ships.
No, Pyramidions are not really that "easy to maintain", because the main engineer is responsible for all engines and the armor/hull as well, you will never have engines if your hull gets damaged, unless you decide it's worth to move without pilot tools, even phoenix claw can destroy engines if nobody repairs them.
I would say "No" to making the Pyramidion's steering ability as bad or worse as the Mobula's or the Galleon's. Its turning abilities are already worse than any other not mentioned ship.
Anyway, the Metamidion in balance can be explained the following way:
Why is it so easy to kill with a Metamidion?
Because the Gatling and the Mortar do so much damage, they can kill even a Galleon with only 1 clip, if the Galleon was not being repaired.
How come a Metamidion gets kills when literally everything is supposed to beat it up?
Because guns that disable can miss. The reward of these guns is that they can disable their target indefinetely and this targeted component will never get the chance to be used again, gun or balloon, but if they miss, the risk is so high that all it takes is a Gatling and a Mortar to kill the ship of disable. Sometimes pilots whose crews are disabling quite well might get to comfortable and thus a single mistake can cost a ship.
Because out-turning a Pyramidion is entirely possible, but people forget how big gun arcs actually are. Out-cirlcling a Pyramidion is not that easy or even possible, because, who could have guessed, Phoenix Claw. However, the same goes for many other ships, some just need a second to get going, I mean the Galleon and the Mobula of course.
Because the game has more factors than a scenario of facing a Metamidion 1v1, head to head. Sometimes it sneaks into your side/behind and when you try to dodge upwards you might forget that while the Pyramidion may not be the fastest at vertical mobility, it is just fast enough to keep good enough gun arcs to shoot at the very bottom of your ship, which could be a spike of a Spire or a even a fin of a Goldfish, if the enemy pilot reacts slow enough. Sometimes its ally is there to support it, afterall, 1 gun that hits can change the entire engagement so it doesn't even have to be 2v1 the entire time, just softening the Metamidions opponent is good enough.
Because what is a Metamidion really good at? Keeping gun arcs with Phoenix claw in close range, while the altitude of the current engagement makes only slow changes.
Of course the Metamidion haa an easy time to kill something in close range, that is what that thing is good for! In every other scenario this ship is entirely useless! (Unless it isn't a Gat/Mortar front Pyramidion, but then it wouldn't be a Metamidion anymore.)
This also means that a rather large amount of factors has to be in the Metamidion's favor such as: Range, flawed enemy pilot's environmental awareness, imperfect disable ability of enemy gunners...
In conclusion:
That build relies on so many factors that nobody can really count on, which means that the Metamidion is in fact rather risky.
It is similar for the Goldfish: If you let it get as close to you as a Metamidion, you will very likely get some disable issues and even more so if the enemy fish decides to use one of its side guns.
Similar to long range: If you are getting beaten up in a long range engagement and you don't move out of range or behind cover, of course you will lose.
So, even if the steering ability of the Pyramidion were to be made worse, what is left for the ship to be good at? Suicide charges? Is that balance? Shouldn't then be the Mobula's vertical ability be nerfed too since it's better than any other ship and there is no hope for any ship to keep up with a Mobula especially when the Mobula decides to use hydrogen, which is a similar concept to almost no ship being able to stay out of arc of the Metamidion while in close range?
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Hey guys. So just popped into Guns after taking a 3 month break, due to frustration over the seemingly lack of balance in the game. I came back. Same problems, different day. The problems all revolve around the metamidion. It is honestly a blight on what could be a perfect game. A ship, with unmatched killing power, who can maneuver amazingly, and has a pretty decent hull health. It is sad, when I am see players with twice the skill of others, lose to choosing the wrong ship. How can this be fixed? Nerf the hell out of the maneuverability. The pyramidion should be like a bullet. When its on target, it is absolutely deadly, but when juked, does not have the ability to phoenix claw right to where it needed to be. I understand that the ship should be noobie friendly, but that doesn't mean allow new players to compensate for lack of skill. As someone who cared enough about the game to start and assist with getting this game into MLG as well as participate in its competitive scene, it is extremely frusturating to have to deal with a ship that is over powered and takes considerably less skill to be good at compared to every other ship. Sure, at the top level of play, the metamidion loses SOME of its power, but in random ladder, it is a game breaker. I'm not trying to be a pest, I'm only sharing why a player who regarded this game so highly, had to stop playing out of sheer frustration over one ship. Thanks for your time
Ummm...wth are you smoking?
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Carronade/Flamethrower seems to be a more popular build now because it's even easier to pull off.
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frankly I would see carronade/flamer as more dangerous than gat/mortar, its pretty scary vs other ships like goldfish or junker. However carronade/flamer pyra is countered by metamidion itself.
Re: meta pyra, it is countered by junker and galleon, tough reactive ships with versatile guns.
Galleon has the amazing disabley guns (unless it's full flak, protip don't go full flak) that can screw up the metamidion's gat/mortar timing and usually win or at very least substantially prolong the fight, good tankiness (not as much as junker tho), and it's heavy enough that ramming is less effective.
Junker is even better, it has the slim easy to miss hull profile, insane armor, extra front gun to disable on the approach, superior (in every direction) maneuverability allows juking (often while maintaining side gun arcs), and a huge balloon to hide under if things go south.
Sure the metamidion is easier than those, but then again flamer is also easier than LJ and I don't see anyone complaining about it here.
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Carronade/Flamethrower seems to be a more popular build now because it's even easier to pull off.
I 100% agree with this, carro flamer is my main pyra build and I am sure most pyra pilots over level 30 use a similar build more focused on disables for when flying pyra
Metamidion is one of the easiest builds in the game because of its reliance on pure armor/hull DPS. In a head on engagement up close of course pure DPS will win in a game about killing things when no other factors are involved. However, this does not make the metamidion the best ship in the game, just an easy one
I have flown about 2/3 of my matches as pilot on a pyra, and the majority of those were disabler pyras like flamer + carro, so I know what a pyra does well and what it does poorly.
So if you are in a lobby and see a metamidion don't just assume you will lose because there are plenty of anti pyra counters including:
-Sniping (gats have a very limited range, and most maps in the game are viable for sniping)
-Disables (main engie needs to repair hull and engines, so take out their engines and now they are either dead in the water or armorless)
-Balloon Pops (pyra does have a hard balloon to hit, but a good lumberjack/carro gunner can really mess up a meta)
-Double gat mobula simply has more DPS than pyra, although you are weaker in armor if you are smart about positioning and attack from a pyra's blindside, then they will be dead before they can even turn to face you
-Good Piloting (I know its tough to say this is a counter to a build, but any skilled pilot can easily out maneuver a pyra with almost any ship in the game
-Practically every pilot tool in the game (just use hydro to dodge pyras, or tar to disable pyras behind you, kero can let you outrun them if your ship is fast enough
In conclusion metamidion may be very easy to fly, but it has way too many counters for it to be called the best or most OP ship in the game
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Yeah, one of metamidion's weaknesses is that gat/mortar have most of the time zero effect on enemy's flight envelope.
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A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe Phoenix Claw should nerfed? :)
Fixed that for you.
Also, was just coming here to check things out because I've missed GoIO lately.
Got dragged into Destiny for a while on my PS3, got bored and went back to Armored Core, XCOM and a couple of Dynasty Warriors games I picke dup cheap, then got Alien Isolation for PC. I have a tendency to jump from game to game a lot, and lately I've been more on a console gaming binge. Really need to get back to the game, and doesn't look like too much has changed to make the game seem unfamiliar.
So have they really not done anything about the Claw yet? I'm a little surprised to see that still being mentioned in an active conversation as something at least borderline OP. Not that I ever use it myself, but... I'm a bit crazy. And what I do... works for all the wrong reasons :P
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The metamidion is effective, but it isn't the most flexible ship. I'd even go so far as to say it is a little noob tubey, although it isn't a straight analogue to the noob tube as it works in competitive play and with other appropriate ships complementing it it can form a good foundation for a decent fleet. That said it provides the captain with really only one option most of the time: get in arc, stay in arc, target hull. Most of the time you don't want to ram in it because your gungineer wont thank you if the mortar loses arc as the hull breaks and fancy flying is just going to spray gattling shots everywhere.
This leaves it somewhat predictable and it can be countered by a good pilot. If you are smart you can get the enemy to waste gattling shots on you while you use cover or back off. A meta is very vulnerable if the gattling is having to reload or doesn't have enough in the clip to strip. The gat can take out components but if it does that it isn't breaking the hull and you now have a mortar as a balloon ornament.
Disabling the gat or mortar on a meta also leaves it vulnerable. If a carronade has redecorated a metamidions mortar shotgun pellet grey or a Hwacha has disabled the gattling then even a well flown metamidion is likely just a nicely positioned bullet magnet.
If I see a meta on the opposition team with a decent crew I know I have to be careful about when and how I end up in its front arcs, but I'm not at panic stations. If I see an all meta enemy then I just bring one of many counter builds (carro-flamer pyra or hwachafish being obvious ones), if the enemy is comparable to my crew and me in skill then I'm feeling pretty good about that match. It is a functional ship, it has a role, but it certainly isn't unstoppable.
The meta can seem OP though because if you are flying against a well balanced team with a meta it is the thing getting the kills. It isn't getting kills on its own though. A meta does well if its ally softens up targets for it by breaking engines or popping balloons (or just acting as a juicy target to get charged while the meta positions itself). The meta gets noticed because it felt like you were coping with the blenderfish and in swooped the meta to kill you. The truth may be you might have beaten the meta had you got the drop on it, but their ally left you vulnerable. The kill is the metas, but your problem was the team.
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Haven't followed competetive to much recently but from what I gathered during my last competetive games and now metamidion is in a decent spot.
The reasoing why I think metamidion is so common is its strength in a rather 2d environment. As soon as altitude gets into play I see metamidion get wrecked almost always.
Everything else already mentioned ...
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The metamidion isn't overpowered. It's just not hard countered like other ships. Take away the small armored balloon on the pyra and give it a regular unprotected balloon. Then it would be balanced. It'd be no harder to crew or fly and it would no longer be the "safe" ship that it is against blenders.
Of course then everyone would know just how silly op the heavy carronade is, but that's another story.