Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Only 3 rematches remaining...
GeoRmr:
--- Quote from: Imagine on November 10, 2014, 08:29:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: sparklerfish on November 10, 2014, 07:34:56 pm ---yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
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No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.
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You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.
Caprontos:
--- Quote from: Imagine on November 10, 2014, 07:15:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: Caprontos on November 10, 2014, 02:27:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: Keyvias on November 10, 2014, 02:06:46 pm ---To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
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I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..
Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?
I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..
Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?
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I don't really think Muse has to share any of this information like at all if they don't want to. You barely hear about any behind the scenes matchmaking numbers from any game that uses it.
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Did I say they have to? I believe I said, I'd like them to. (I guess in away... my feedback is to give us more feedback.. that seems weird)..
Also in the October 31st Fireside Chat Howard/Bubbles said toward the end (like the one hour mark?), he wants to make a post this week (I think he meant this week?) with more info on what all they are doing and how its effecting matchmaker.. How much numbers that will involve if any, I guess well see if he makes that post.
At any rate I am not trying to arguing with you about it or anything, I simple meant more info like the above would be nice so we actually can understand how its working and how these changes are improving the situation.
KitKatKitty:
--- Quote from: Mr.Disaster on November 09, 2014, 05:24:00 am ---
--- Quote ---If people want to continue to rematch and keep playing together, that means the matchmaker has done its job for them (or they sorted it out themselves). The point of the matchmaker is to deliver people to a balanced match, is it not? If people are in a match they like... DON'T TAKE THEM OUT!
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Sparky, you have my spanner
And my salute
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Like I've said on the 1.3.8 Hotfix 2 release notes, I don't overly mind the forced 3 match re-match in the opened queued lobbies (I'm not overly happy with it either but I can live with it). I do however want it completely removed from custom matches, even if the custom match is opened to the queue. If someone took the time to create a custom match then there is a reason for it and I don't think anyone really wants to re-set up their custom match ever 3 matches.
--- Quote from: GeoRmr on November 10, 2014, 08:41:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Imagine on November 10, 2014, 08:29:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: sparklerfish on November 10, 2014, 07:34:56 pm ---yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
--- End quote ---
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.
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You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.
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I do think what sparkler says is more the majority than the minority.
--- Quote from: Keyvias on November 10, 2014, 02:06:46 pm ---To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
The reason 3 rematches was chosen this should give every ship a chance to swap while still putting people back into queue.
Our goal isn't to disenfranchise players, but to help the greatest number of them. Does the data matter to us? Completely. Behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round.
This doesn't mean that we ignore feedback, but that what one player sees may not be what every or the average player sees. We have to try and balance all the conflicting views we get and at the end of the day make the decision that we believe that will give the greatest amount of fun.
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OK, I understand that the numbers are be important. But I also think the community feed back is just as important. You state that behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round. So shall the players that are unhappy with the matches that the match making system puts them in just leave that lobby and go straight back to queue and try over and over again until they find one that is balanced??? Will this show which players are unhappy with the match making system and the lobbies they are put in better than just staying in the unbalanced lobby and pub stomping? (These are actual serious questions and not sarcasm. I want to know the best way to help fix this system). After the last hotfix 3 out of 10 of my matches have been reasonably balanced which is an improvement from the 1.3.8 where pretty much all 10 of the matches were unbalanced. However, there this still a lot of room to improve this.
Trystan Hart:
Yeah, the thing about the vocal minority is that I was motivated to come on here and say it because I got sick of hearing it (and saying it) all the time in the lobbies themselves. I know that's hardly a representative survey, but I have not yet found anyone ingame who likes the 3-rematches thing, yet I have found tons of people who get annoyed that they;ve jsut been botted out of the first balanced lobby they've found all day.
Keyvias:
@ Caprontos,
Definitely happy to share more info on the matchmaker (sorry for the delay, there's a bunch of support emails so it's spiting my attention horribly.)
So the average end of match score was a 90 mmr difference back in match list. Not terrible, but not good, and with a lot more edge cases and as I said in a fireside we could very often tell you who was going to win each match. Time for lobby start was roughly 14 minutes (This is creation to start), which was absolutely terrible.
Now matchmakers code has gone through quite a bit of changes and I am not the engineer who made it, but let me try to explain the flow.
Go to the play menu
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Matchmaker checks how many crew vs pilots there are in queue and makes a suggestion
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You click play
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The match system checks if there's any open lobbies that are novice or regular (depending on what you are) and where your mmr would fit best.
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If no matches need players the queue starts building a match with the other players in the queue
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At any point while it's getting 16 players together for a 2v2 or 24 for a 3v3 a player is needed to fill an empty already made slot they are taken from the queue and put in that game
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You are placed into a match that attempts to match mmr between teams and give each team two engineers and one gunner (unless they chose something different in crew form)
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Match starts and then ends
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Players vote on rematch or not (rematch always wins)
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Players leave rematches lobby and matchmaker tries to fill the gaps as quickly as possible.
That's a really rough overview of the system and there's a lot of little code logic that make it work that way, but if you have any other questions please let me know.
@ Numbers vs People
Both have merit. When I brought up the numbers it wasn't to ignore what was said here. It's to show that we have conflicting information to deal with, we even on player feedback on the new system being more effective at it's job, so it's not just "you're fighting our handy dandy chart." A big part of our job is finding out which sacrifice is the best to make. We knew capping rematch would be a sacrifice, but we believe the good outweighs the bad. The positive effect on balance and speed would be more important than the reduction of flexibility.
I'm not trying to say anyone's opinion is less meaningful or unimportant, but there is quite a bit of data we have.
This is why I like use cases like Shaelyn's. If our system is hindering big group play, that's bad and something that should be fixed. This doesn't need evidence, argument, or debate.
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