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Balance ideas for Pyramidion and Junker
redria:
Just to point out, the 2 ships most commonly accused of being OP are the Pyramidion and Junker. The only ships with 2 light guns facing exactly the same direction are the Pyramidion and Junker. Coincidence? I think not.
These ships give you easy weapon combos along with respectable maneuverability and respectable repairability. The Galleon is next in terms of guns facing exactly the same direction, but with such a maneuverability problem that it is often left helpless. Spires have guns facing together, but have maneuverability and durability problems. Mobula has guns facing together but has mobility and repairability problems. Goldfish and squid don't have good arcs.
These 2 ships are strong because of the damage type gameplay that GoIO features. A single gun is insufficient (almost) always. You need to blend 2 guns together. Pyra and Junker offer this without serious drawbacks, or rather without drawbacks that can be partially covered with piloting tools.
The fact that these ships have a high skill ceiling and such strong relevance in high level play is a better indicator that other ships are lacking in payoff than that these 2 are lacking in drawbacks.
Consider these 2 ships to be the beginner ships. In a normal game, you beginner ships will be your warrior, your melee type, the average brute. Once you have done well with this you might branch out and try a more skilled character type, like magic or ranged. These types have clear drawbacks, but also the potential to be stronger or more helpful to a team. We have seen teams do this with the Galleon and Goldfish, and a very few teams work it with a squid or spire. Mobulas have also made an appearance.
If these ships aren't doing so well, it indicates that they have insufficient reward for their drawbacks. Like a squishy mage without a powerful area of effect spell, or a weak bard who can barely buff his allies. It isn't that these 2 ships are too good, it's that all the other ones don't have quite enough upside, or maybe a little too much downside.
Consider a random example - take the squid, remove 4/5 of its permahull and add a 4th gun on the front-right of the ship pointed 45 degrees right of forwards. Huge downside, but what an upside. The killing power of the squid would skyrocket, but it would die so very easily. Is that balanced or even a good idea? Probably not. But now the squid gets an upside worthy of its downside - the ability to kill quickly.
TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
-Mad Maverick-:
--- Quote from: redria on July 22, 2014, 02:25:39 pm ---TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
--- End quote ---
i cant agree with this more and have been saying this for soo long about so many different subjects!
Echoez:
--- Quote from: redria on July 22, 2014, 02:25:39 pm ---TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
--- End quote ---
Stop talking wisdom redria :P
redria:
--- Quote from: Echoez on July 23, 2014, 02:18:17 am ---Stop talking wisdom redria :P
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: -Mad Maverick- on July 22, 2014, 09:03:34 pm ---i cant agree with this more and have been saying this for soo long about so many different subjects!
--- End quote ---
Please also note that I didn't say that speed is the answer. I think that the ships are actually pretty well balanced in terms of speed. And the guns are mostly in good places right now. I rewatched a video or two from a year ago and laughed at how absurdly far gatling guns and mortars fired.
No, the solution to any perceived imbalance is not going to be as easy or simple as reverting to any old numbers or buffing a single aspect of something. The best solutions are going to be outside-of-the-box. Perhaps Muse already has a solution or two in mind.
The trickiest part is how intricately everything is linked. Changing something to help a weak ship might make an average ship overpowered.
Consider the Galleon. The upside is the massive firepower and durability. The downside is the awful maneuverability and easy disabling.
My first instinct would be to buff the upside. But making the Galleon more durable won't really help it. It is already tanky enough. Adding to that will just make you take longer to die with no guns and no balloon. Buffing the guns' firepower would be good, but then you inherently buff the goldfish firepower too, which could easily make it OP.
The alternative is to reduce the downsides. Buffing maneuverability or preventing disabling. However, a maneuverability buff sufficient to help the galleon would quickly make it to difficult to fight. It is in a good place for maneuvering. A solution might be a new tool that does double Claw turning speed, but triple damage. Galleons have more engine health and could handle a harsher tool. Another solution might be something that helps protect the guns from being disabled. This would give Galleons the opportunity to use their guns when they have the chance.
I want to see what Muse pulls together to help change the meta before I advocate any real change suggestions. I think there are clever ideas and solutions already being worked on and I'd love to see them in action before thinking any further on this.
pandatopia:
Possible solution to the galleon is to have the side heavy guns be moved slightly inward into the ship, so they cannot so easily be disabled from the front/skewed angle.
If they can be disabled from the side thats fine - because the galleon is capable of broadsiding at that angle too.
But on the approach the guns are very vulnerable.
For squid I think adding a walkway between the two turning engines will go a long way to making it easier to repair.
You then also have a neat separation of duties - back engie takes all 4 engines and back gun, mid engie takes side gun and balloon/hull, front takes front gun+hull/balloon.
The spire I think is just too big of a target and too flimsy - more armor is needed, or otherwise you'll never get the 3/4 guns firing for more than a second once you start taking damage. I'm okay with the spire instapopping as soon as hull is down.
Mobula I think a corridor in the middle of the ship between the hull and balloon would be awesome, might make it too easy to repair though.
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