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Balance ideas for Pyramidion and Junker

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Echoez:
I find its component layout to be both a blessing and a curse personaly.. you are overestimating its capabilities..

Especially that 3-engine deck, an artemis will keep you locked down forever the moment anyone even as much as shoots 2 missiles at your back, your 'easily repeaired' engines that are so close together ain't such a boon anymore now that a guy can shoot a missile with no effort and keep you immobile forever right? I know it ain't cause I was doing it in the last tourney I played.

The hull isn't rebuilt easily after it's down and the Pyra gets easily destroyed after it's hull is down since it's a massive box of a ship that you would have to be blind to miss.

The side guns on a Pyra are also pretty much useless if not for super long range (ah the good old days of 1.2 Mercury Fests) or just some utility, since the ship is so unweildy, brawling with these guns is akward, nevermind that their elevevation is different and getting a gunner to go from upper deck to low and then back up takes forever.


The Pyra is simply a silly lawn dart, it's unweildy, stronk and easy to repair cause it's straight forward in all regards, point nose at enemy and guns blazing, thanks to being super slow to turn Junkers can circle around them all day as well and they are very easy to snipe out of the sky thanks to their massive structure.

We can talk all day, but honestly I think the ship is pretty solid, with nothing spectacular about it aside form the armored balloon.

sparklerfish:
I like how easy the pyramidion is to engineer on so new players can get the basics down and enjoy playing while they learn without screwing everything up royally.  I'm not much of a pilot, but when I have a crew of new players I take comfort in flying a pyra and knowing that things will probably be sort of okay.  I think it's important to have a ship that's easier for new people to cut their teeth on before moving on to something more challenging to engineer on.

I also like the idea of buffing other ships rather than nerfing the pyra.  Adding more sweet spots, making squid/goldfish engines more accessible, etc.

pandatopia:
Every point you brought up vs the pyra is more prominent on other ships.

With claw nothing can "run circles" around you, and the engine layout (for turning - the important engines) is the same as Junker, Galleon, Goldfish, Spire. If you've got someone on your butt you're going to have problems regardless of what you're playing.

With only the galleon being tankier than the pyra I think you're wrong in that as well - it thrives on brawling and is fantastic.

The side guns are underestimated - a well coordinated team can shoot it just as well as you would the side + front guns on a junker. If you accept that as the junker meta, you should accept a pyra can shoot 2 guns constantly in a 270 degree arc. A good gunner will know when to jump down, it takes all of 2 seconds - shorter time than it takes to run from front gun to bottom gun on a junker, same as top guns to balloon in junker. For example I served on a Rydr ship with 2 long range guns on the front and meta on the sides...people rushed it thinking for an easy kill only to have their armor half gone by the time they got there and a mortar gat staring them in the face. Similarly - it works well with ramming if you're good at predicting that.

Thats one thing that I forgot to touch on - at any point noone on the ship is more than 1-2 seconds from hull. This is ridiculous! This is basically if you took a junker and cut out the entire middle front deck, and put the balloon next to the hull - a bit of an exaggeration, but from balloon -> hull it is very easy to get down.

Dementio:
If you have to put somebody from the top guns to bottom deck of the pyramidion, then the pyramidion is losing in whatever fight it is in. It can't even safe itself from any danger since only 1 of the top guns shoots at most and engines are going to be ignored since the hull is being tanked.
In this scenario the pyramidion is trying to buy time, probably for the ally to do what he needs to do.
It's big armor takes a while to be rebuild and often times won't be rebuild before the hull itself goes down (which is on par with the mobula's hull health and only better than the junker's).
A pyramidion is low on accelerations, making it hard to dodge when the time comes.

Of course a pyra could keep up with everything circling it by merely using phoenix claw, but it doesn't mean it is going to win the fight.
If a (meta-)junker circles a pyra, the junker usually wins because of higher armor. The pyramidion is damaging it's engines with phoenix claw, which will show effect in time, in an effort to keep the hull up. There will be no extra damage through ramming, because the pyra is turning.
If a squid circles a pyramidion, it could dodge the possible mortar by using superior vertical movement. Similar with the goldfish.

Pyramidion rams are only so effective, because the enemy's armor usually goes down due to the gatling or at least it is damaged and then the rams finishes it. Every ship can ram, the own armor just has to stay up.

Side guns of pyramidions could be used, but it is the pilot's own fault for not using them, if he needs them. And a beacon flare is not so bad to have there.


The pyramidion is like the pipe wrench. Every other ship in the game either has at least 3 guns shooting at the same time, even in close range, or the superior manouverbility to make up for the lack of firepower by simply not being hit.
How is the pyramidion better than any of these? That was a sarcistic question, because it isn't better, it's just not the worst. And I honestly believe this is the only strength the pyramidion has.

Echoez:

--- Quote from: pandatopia on July 21, 2014, 07:22:27 pm ---With claw nothing can "run circles" around you, and the engine layout (for turning - the important engines) is the same as Junker, Galleon, Goldfish, Spire. If you've got someone on your butt you're going to have problems regardless of what you're playing.

--- End quote ---

The ships that should be able to, can, Squids and Junkers will circle a Pyra for more than enough time than they need to disable or kill it, even with Claw, your turn accel is still slow as hell.

No, the engine layout is not the same, you can shoot the Pyra's ass and hit all 3 engines no problem by not even aimming for them, try doing the same at the Junker's turning engines and your shots will start going inbetween them, Goldfish also has its engines seperated and can deal with such threads way more easily thanks to always having 2 engineers on board to repair, the Pyra only ever has one down there or it loses effective firepower, the Spire's engines are all way more spread out.

I've got nothing on the Galleon, but that ship is the easiest to disable anyway, doesn't negate the Pyra's weakness.



--- Quote from: pandatopia on July 21, 2014, 07:22:27 pm ---With only the galleon being tankier than the pyra I think you're wrong in that as well - it thrives on brawling and is fantastic.

--- End quote ---

I never said it's a bad brawler?.. I said it's side guns are a horrible choice for an extended close up fight.



--- Quote from: pandatopia on July 21, 2014, 07:22:27 pm ---The side guns are underestimated - a well coordinated team can shoot it just as well as you would the side + front guns on a junker. If you accept that as the junker meta, you should accept a pyra can shoot 2 guns constantly in a 270 degree arc. A good gunner will know when to jump down, it takes all of 2 seconds - shorter time than it takes to run from front gun to bottom gun on a junker, same as top guns to balloon in junker. For example I served on a Rydr ship with 2 long range guns on the front and meta on the sides...people rushed it thinking for an easy kill only to have their armor half gone by the time they got there and a mortar gat staring them in the face. Similarly - it works well with ramming if you're good at predicting that.

--- End quote ---

No they aren't underestimated, they are simply not as viable as the front guns thanks to the ship design, the Pyra is shit at turning, so the side guns aren't as useful cause it can't realy use them up close to circle anyone for extended time, they are good for longer range engages or very short usage, or if you want, utility weapons like the flare. Also people rushing a frontal sniper Pyra aren't the best examples to discuss balance around, you could win those engages if you ran sniper side / brawler front as well with no difference at all, so your argument there is kinda moot IMO.



--- Quote from: pandatopia on July 21, 2014, 07:22:27 pm ---Thats one thing that I forgot to touch on - at any point noone on the ship is more than 1-2 seconds from hull. This is ridiculous! This is basically if you took a junker and cut out the entire middle front deck, and put the balloon next to the hull - a bit of an exaggeration, but from balloon -> hull it is very easy to get down.

--- End quote ---

The thing is, the Pyramidion is a massive armor hitbox, most of the ship, even around the balloon is armor, which means even if it has 650 armor points, they can easily get stripped cause gatlings and hades will rarely miss a Pyra's armor, which makes it considerably less tanky than it seems to be, plus its perma is low enough so after its armor is down, the hull wil probably die as well 90% of the time, so it makes sense that you would want a lot of people close to the hull at all times, but ifyou take people off of guns to start rebuilding, you are already losing.

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