Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[HamsterIV]

If you can get away with two gunners or if your primary engineer is shooting most of the time it is because the other team doesn't see your ship as a threat. When the other team does see you as a threat two engineers are vital since one will be stuck to the hull and the other one will be trying to keep the 2ndary systems like engines and balloon operational. Having a dedicated gunner removes the question "should I start shooting?" from the engineers.

As for the third position gunner or engineer, it can be answered by a single question "Will I need more than one type of ammo to make this ship build work?" for the squid, blenderfish, and close range only pyramidions/junkers the answer is usually NO. When big guns (not Carronade) come into play, or if there is a mix of field guns and close range guns the answer becomes YES.

[Tsal Vlaxitov]

I almost exclusively play as a gunner and from my short experience with it, the guy who forces me to switch to engineer is the same guy who thinks its ok to stay in a galleon's broadside for the sake of shooting at another ship. Its either that or hes soo unaware of his surroundings that he fails to notice hes in a galleons broadside to begin with and needs several engineers to carry him through that handicap. This is no exception to higher ranked captains either as rank is clearly not skill gated in this game. Good pilots can easily get by with one engineer and that one engineer is either shooting or chilling half the time. Besides that, why wouldn't you want someone to focus on gunning and someone else to focus on fixing? That ridiculas term "gungineer" is an engineer who only guns and never fixes anything other than his gun most of the time and once again, the pilot who demands all engineers is too unaware to notice that. I do more fixing as a gunner than alot of "gungineers" I've seen in action.

Engineers might be better on paper but in their actual in game roles this is how its working out to my witness. That said I would love for there to be an undeniable advantage to having a a gunner over coordinating different ammo types between different engineers but really only to keep those pilots who would exclude me or at least moan about it from doing so.

You can get by with one engineer against a team of newcomers. Otherwise, two is a necessity. You should  try playing as an engineer more before you say things like this.

Yeah I do realize that which is why I said in my short experience. Maybe once you're pro 2 engineers is totally necissary and I do intend on ranking engineer up. Its just so far that in my short experience when I'm losing its because were being outflown an overwhelming majority of the time.

[Squash]

Jeeze, what is with the plethora of ammo people are apparently bringing to these games? Isn't two per player enough?

[Helmic]

I almost exclusively play as a gunner and from my short experience with it, the guy who forces me to switch to engineer is the same guy who thinks its ok to stay in a galleon's broadside for the sake of shooting at another ship. Its either that or hes soo unaware of his surroundings that he fails to notice hes in a galleons broadside to begin with and needs several engineers to carry him through that handicap. This is no exception to higher ranked captains either as rank is clearly not skill gated in this game. Good pilots can easily get by with one engineer and that one engineer is either shooting or chilling half the time. Besides that, why wouldn't you want someone to focus on gunning and someone else to focus on fixing? That ridiculas term "gungineer" is an engineer who only guns and never fixes anything other than his gun most of the time and once again, the pilot who demands all engineers is too unaware to notice that. I do more fixing as a gunner than alot of "gungineers" I've seen in action.

Engineers might be better on paper but in their actual in game roles this is how its working out to my witness. That said I would love for there to be an undeniable advantage to having a a gunner over coordinating different ammo types between different engineers but really only to keep those pilots who would exclude me or at least moan about it from doing so.

This is why there being a gunner at all on a ship is so controversial.  Dedicated gunners often spend more time fixing their gun than switching ammos, more DPS is lost due to downtime or engines or balloons being knocked offline than what's gained from that single volley you get off at range before closing in at close.  The role "Gunner" has no bearing on whether you're the guy whose job it is to shoot all the time, even if I have three engineers one of those engineers is going to play exactly like a Gunner except he can rebuild his own gun if necessary and, if shit has really hit the fan, can help with repairs should everything be disabled at once from a Hwacha volley or tar cloud.  They are able to repair, rebuild, extinguish, and buff their own gun, making them much more independent and allowing the "real" engineers more time to repair more vital systems.

The only real use of a Gunner role comes from ships where that gunner is either going to be running to a bunch of different guns or will be on a heavy weapon like on a Goldfish, Spire, or Galleon.  Almost none of the light guns have a real benefit from multiple ammo types, and those that do don't benefit enough to justify the loss of uptime and emergency tankiness.  Now, as for actual people who shoot, you're right, there needs to be two people who can shoot at any point in time, but even for those arguing that the Gunner is perfectly fine won't be taking that second Gunner over a gungineer who switches off between shooting and repairs as necessary.

[Shinkurex]

and now we've reached full circle.... It's clear that both sides will not budge on their viewpoints... This just needs to be tested on the field of battle... I'll see you in the Cogs

[All Systems Go]

This thread was an interesting read. As a pilot/captain, a few thoughts I'll share in case they're of interest.

* Getting two gunners makes me groan as much as having a second pilot. Three will make me quit the match if they won't change before it launches. But three engineers I'm content with, especially if they listen when I tell them what ammo to bring.
* A good gunner is awesome. But I've found most gunners can't really shoot, even with the Hwacha. As someone else mentioned, it comes down to that whole keeping ship momentums and stuff like that in their head.
* A good gunner on my quad-hwacha Galleon can be pretty devastating. They can disable most ships before they can really do damage, and if they slip over or under, switch to the other side's guns and take out those engines. Buuuut...
* I pug pretty much all the time, can't seem to get a consistent crew together. Most gunners suck. I'd rather have 3 engineers (but definitely a minimum of two), cause when a gunner can't do the above and disable a ship's gun, you really can't get by with 1 engineer holding the ship together. Stressful times, you really need two and ideally a third that can try to get a gun up quick.
* I have tried briefly and would like to try guns besides the hwacha (or hellhound on my Fish), but I can't count on having a gunner that can hit dependably or, honestly, even at all.

And lastly...
I'm not going to try another role any time soon, I think. If I did, I think I would want to try gunner. Mental math on trying to hit two moving objects, using the ideal ammo, that sort of thing's of more interest to me than just trying to figure out what to hit with a wrench first.
But there's just too many gunners already.

Fortunately, many will switch to engineer when I ask them to (though I feel kinda bad doing it). I myself, meanwhile, will be staying at the helm. Piloting in this game's interesting, at least : )

[Moriarty]

and now we've reached full circle.... It's clear that both sides will not budge on their viewpoints... This just needs to be tested on the field of battle... I'll see you in the Cogs

Looks like the gents don't take gunners anymore either, if their last match is anything to go by (tho i did hear they had some people problems being Easter).

[RearAdmiralZill]

and now we've reached full circle.... It's clear that both sides will not budge on their viewpoints... This just needs to be tested on the field of battle... I'll see you in the Cogs

Looks like the gents don't take gunners anymore either, if their last match is anything to go by (tho i did hear they had some people problems being Easter).

We also beat them Week 0 using gunners. Unfortunately it was not streamed due to daylight savings shenanigans. Nice try.

[Moriarty]

Oh yeah wish I'd seen that. But you know how it goes pics or it didn't happen.

My point here is just that one of the most long range and precise/heavy teams in the game seem to eschew the use of gunners.

Btw do you attribute the victory to your use of gunners? [legitimately curious]

[RearAdmiralZill]

I had a screenshot of the win, though knowing my luck i deleted it during cleanup.

I know what you meant, but basing it off singular matches isnt an accurate way to show, in this case, gunners arent useful.

I dont base our victory entirely on the fact we had gunners, but it did help in the grand strategy that resulted in a win. That round we had a blenderfish and my pyra, which had a carronade and flak on front. For the blender, i can only assume he had heavy for "long" range and charged/loch for up close. Then for me, my gunner was on front carronade with heavy for "long" range and greased for the quick dps. I forget his third ammo, but i let him choose for himself.

[Shinkurex]

[Moriarty]

Morbie? i thought he and the gents had parted ways or was this before that.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Morbie? i thought he and the gents had parted ways or was this before that.

He parted ways after this match took place.

[Moriarty]

Yeah...Tho honestly i did hear it was because (among other more important things) he took a hard line on bringing a gunner 

[RearAdmiralZill]

I wont speculate here. However his screenshot does show you his ammo at the bottom for the heavy carronade.