Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[Machiavelliest]

As a pilot, I can select more than one helm tool and have them be effective at the same time.  As an engineer, I can hammer then extinguish to combine the effects of my repair tools.

Why not grant the gunner the ability to combine ammo types?  This will require the further balance of ammo types (likely toning them down), but we still see changes to ships and the repair game too.  Additionally, make gunner-loaded ammo persistent between people manning the hardpoint.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I can see that just being a balance nightmare waiting to happen. You'd have to tone the ammo way down for that, and at that point it'll become useless for engineers to use them, and you'll have crazy OP combinations.

You don't select more than one tool, you use them in quick succession and that gives you the perception they are combined. Gunners don't have that particular luxury due to reloads, but swapping from ammo to ammo based on current needs its basically the same thing you're talking about, its just not instant.

Making gunner loaded-ammo persistent would break the reason for being a gunner, which is to man the guns. Then he just becomes a ammo supply depot who loads weapons and then runs off to repair things and anyone can hop on that gun and fire the desired rounds.

[Machiavelliest]

I agree with your last point, since it basically makes him the Gun Loader and not the Gunner.  However, with switching ammo loads, it seems apparent that that advantage is not enough to generally justify a Gunner rather than an Engineer.  Those were haphazard suggestions, of course, but I do think that the class is marginalized in the current build.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well all this is coming from a guy who doesn't think gunners are useless or need buffing. I've been running one gunner for, well ever, and I value a good gunner over another engineer.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

The problem isn't gunners, the problem is bad players hitting quick match as gunner or bad players refusing to play anything else besides gunner then refusing to listen. Or the dreaded, sitting on a turret shooting at clouds acting like someone with the attention span of a goldfish.

I vote for perks Gunners get with the guns. Like say, give gunners the ability to instantly disable guns with flame like the game used to have. Or just patch that back. Seriously, bring back the original flames!

For other guns this would be similar. Heavy flak would work as it originally did. Rocket carrosel would fire like it used to. Lumberjack would get minimum range reduced. Others would get accuracy buffs. Similar to heavy clip except maybe a mix between that and normal operation.

Course, could solve a lot of this by just returning the game to what it was before the nerf. But if not, giving gunners these abilities back would help make them more viable.

[Helmic]

I don't think anyone is arguing about quickjoiners, though.  We're talking about the same person using either three ammo types and one repair tool or one ammo type and three repair tools, quickjoiner or not the latter's versatility has made it nearly a standard for a good portion of experienced captains on ships without heavy weapons (and sometimes even with).  Passive Gunner-specific abilities would mean classes aren't defined entirely by their tools and I don't think it's worth deviating from the original concept for what may be a temporary problem.  Unless those changes to the guns make different ammo types much more useful than they are now, I don't see how going back to gunners being useful mainly for their ability to switch to heatsink ammo is really fixing the problem.

And, well, rolling back to a previous patch means that so and so patch is perfect.  It obviously wasn't, or else Muse wouldn't have felt a need to roll out balance patches.  It'd be better to continue adjusting based on the current patch than constantly roll back.

[Squash]

Welp, I'm going to have to eat crow here, we used a gunner in the last cogs match against Zill, it wans't for experimental sake, it was a necessity. Not all the time, not most of the times, just, sometimes, you need a gunner.

[Moriarty]

Damnit Squash i thought we agreed to never EVER mention that....

Still for that specific situation i reluctantly agree the gunner added value. But the Way the value was added way weird and roundabout.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Not all the time, not most of the times, just, sometimes, you need a gunner.

That looks like it was painful to type.

[Squash]

Not all the time, not most of the times, just, sometimes, you need a gunner.

That looks like it was painful to type.

In fairness I think it was a bit more painful from your side.

[Helmic]

In fairness I think it was a bit more painful from your side.

Ouch.  Pun intended.

[N-Sunderland]

Not all the time, not most of the times, just, sometimes, you need a gunner.

That looks like it was painful to type.

In fairness I think it was a bit more painful from your side.

*stops and thinks*

*bursts out laughing*

[Machiavelliest]

Well all this is coming from a guy who doesn't think gunners are useless or need buffing. I've been running one gunner for, well ever, and I value a good gunner over another engineer.

The advantage I find is that a gunner has generally more experience than an equivalent engineer with leading targets, projectile trajectory, and ammo types.  It's an advantage purely in an individual identifying themselves as a dedicated gunner. From a purely mechanics side I think the argument has already been closed.

[Sylas Firehammer]

Well all this is coming from a guy who doesn't think gunners are useless or need buffing. I've been running one gunner for, well ever, and I value a good gunner over another engineer.

The advantage I find is that a gunner has generally more experience than an equivalent engineer with leading targets, projectile trajectory, and ammo types.  It's an advantage purely in an individual identifying themselves as a dedicated gunner. From a purely mechanics side I think the argument has already been closed.

I think that can be very true. Last night I played a match with a Lumberjack on Squash's crew and I realized I was really quite terrible at the arcing of my shots.

A high leveled gunner will have gottenmost of his achievements via doing his job, gunning. As an engineer gets their achievements repairing most of the time. So yes, that is a very good point.

[Moriarty]

lol, a high level anything gets most of their levels through very specific grinding.