Author Topic: Realism has had it's fun...  (Read 85020 times)

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2014, 05:44:18 pm »
this not for or against brawling this for faster more maneuverable ships leading to more fast and fun gameplay

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2014, 05:46:41 pm »
We just want to feel the wind in our hair again.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2014, 05:50:23 pm »
exactly

Offline JaegerDelta

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2014, 06:13:40 pm »
personally i think those darn nostalgia goggles are coming into play when it comes to certain peoples memories.  If the problem as people stated is the fact that all ships are slower now; well frankly ALL ships are slower now, it doesn't actually change ships in relation to each other.  So that must mean that ship speed is only a problem when the other ship's speed is not a factor, i.e. going up against long range guns. So lets be honest about it, this is a complaint against sniping weapons.  And its a valid concern to be sure, but here is where the nostalgia comes in. Those long range guns have always been there, the viability of long range combat has always been in the game. The determining factor in any long range engagement is the skill of the gunner, that is what has changed the most in GoI:O.  Gunners have been getting better and better and better ever since the game was released. To be clear, im not saying an increasing pool of skilled gunners is the only factor in the golden age of sniping, balance changes have played their part as well. I am suggesting, however, that the growing pool of skilled gunners is the major factor at play. Pilot and engineering skill sets and cooperation now have to catch up.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2014, 06:23:48 pm »
no this not a thread about balance this is a thread about how when ALL ships were faster the game was more fun

Offline Echoez

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2014, 06:31:09 pm »
Pilot and engineering skill sets and cooperation now have to catch up.

There's a problem with your argument there, a gunner's aimming skill can keep getting better and better until they become a ballistics genious or something.

Pilots are extremely limited by what their ships can do and Engineers are even more limited by repair times and their tools. AKA, navigation is limited by the physical capabilities of the ship and engineer play is purely number and cicle based, something that after one point, you can't get any better at. Weapons are only and I repeat, ONLY limited by their effective range, once within effective range, the weapon will do as good as the gunner can do with no limits.

This game is simply more of a turret gunner's game now than a pilot's game and engineer play was never something extremely exciting anyway (at least for me it wasn't, never found it interesting, I just did it when I wanted something more relaxed).

Tools like Claw/Hydro/Chute aren't fast enough and ships by themselves don't realy have large enough differences in speed unless you take the complete opposites in the spectrum, for example the Goldfish is faster than a Pyra, but it is irrelevant when the Pyra can easily keep up with you for more than enough time to finish you off if you make a run for it for example, the supposedly agile ships can't even manuver enough to avoid shots when you move in the enemy gun's sweet spot, there are just too many limitations.

If you ask me, aside from the fact that the ships don't feel as fun to fly anymore than to gun on them, I will heavily blame the extreme focus people on both Pubs and Competitive have on the TDM gamemode. Curse it to hell and all the way back, it is the primary reason that the meta has stagnated so much to this stationary sniper mode (at least when I was playing). TL;DR : TDM is boring, Objectives force confrontations and encourage movement and mobility, there is also that magical point clock ticking to discourage people from camping forever.




PS: You know what else I miss? Good ol' bugged Kerozene. Which honestly felt much of a medium between the purely speed or turning focused Moonshine and Phoenix, which allowed more diversity in pilot builds without having to sacrifice ALL your mobility or ALL your utility.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 06:33:57 pm by Echoez »

Offline Thomas

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2014, 07:16:08 pm »
I can say that faster ships would be more fun, but that's from a pilot perspective; and of course you don't want them going -too- fast, which is what I think most people are worried about.

By increasing ship speeds, you will change the balance of the game. That's not to say it will imbalance the game, but things will definitely be different. We can always adjust other things to compensate, but that's a pretty large effort; and you have to ask if changing all/most other aspects of the game is worth the change? Faster ships would be more difficult to hit. Do we reduce the hp of components? Would tools make the ships be way to maneuverable and have to reduce their effect? Would tools still provide enough of a difference to be useful, or would players switch to utility tools instead of maneuverability tools? Would we need to increase gun arcs and shell velocities? Would the ship masses need to be adjusted so ramming doesn't do crazy huge amounts of damage from the velocity? What about the really slow ships or guns with small arcs, would they even be competitive anymore? Would the small maps be too small now?




Increasing the ship speed would increase the skill cap for gunners, and probably pilots, but likely reduces it for engineers. Faster movement means you need better reaction times and coordination, because things are changing at a faster pace. With ships moving faster, you need to be able to lead them a lot better -and- compensate for your own ship movement more. Now with shots being harder to land, and ships having an easier time getting out of arcs, this ideally gives engineers less to do. Sure there's always going to be repairs, but there's no 'you need to get this exactly right or we're dead', since there's a higher chance of error on the pilot and gunner level.

Or perhaps engineers will have to do better, with their pilots more likely to smack into obstacles and enemies able to suddenly appear and hit you hard. Engineering will probably be about the same really.

Right now pilots are less about flying skill, and more about decision making and strategy. Once you're in a situation, there's not a whole lot you can do to change that. If the enemy sneaks up on you with a metamidion, you can hydro, vent, phoenix claw, etc; but mostly it's "Oh, guess we're dead now." Because any movement you make isn't fast or dramatic enough to throw them off enough to spare you. You need to be prepared ahead of time for that kind of event, and no amount of skill will save you (most of the time).

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2014, 07:20:53 pm »
PS: You know what else I miss? Good ol' bugged Kerozene. Which honestly felt much of a medium between the purely speed or turning focused Moonshine and Phoenix, which allowed more diversity in pilot builds without having to sacrifice ALL your mobility or ALL your utility.

I'm with you on this one. It opened up so many more loadout possibilities. I miss my kerosene/tar/chute Pyra...

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2014, 07:44:31 pm »
Well I haven't posted on this thread until now, and I must say I really do see both sides of this argument; but I really feel like I need to interject just one clarification.

The ships in GOI are all traveling at the same max speed they always have ever since the games release.

It's not the speed that's changed, it's the acceleration.  Ships can't change direction, juke or achieve max speed as easily as they used to, however they all go just as fast as they always have.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2014, 07:59:32 pm »
The vertical movement has changed a lot from the old days as well.

Offline Battle Toads

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2014, 10:24:44 pm »

Pyra, the bloated lawn dart. Now we have the speed, but the turning is infuriating. This ship was nerfed to answer the cries of the community which complained about how OP it was. Well, good job people, you got what you wanted. But at the same time we've got teams that have left the game because they just can't stand it anymore. Its a weak vessel and instead of supplementing it, Muse nerfed it again with hull hp reduction and 20% weight reduction. Pyras are not ships to fear anymore, nor are they liked as much. They're slow, lumbering and completely at the mercy of their opponents being morons that don't see them as an easy kill.


I obviously haven't played anywhere as much as you or most people in this thread, I have only been playing since December or so. I have however, played the majority of my games flying a Pyramidion. And if the pyra is considered "nerf" now, than I honestly feel terrible for anyone who had to fly against before. Clearly the pyra has problems, but it also has major strenghts.

The pyra is still  very viable, and you can watch competitive play to see some skilled crews work very well with it (see redria). The pyra is slow to turn (makes sense that the faster you go, the slower you turn) and is easier to be hit by disabling weapons, but the "weak" hull health really doesn't make me feel vulnerable in a pyra.

 I do agree with you that pyra should be increased in mass to make it feel more like a vanguard and a ramming ship. I understand how you want ships to feel faster and sniping to be less viable, but change takes time and this game is FAR from an unplayable state, so I will continue to play and enjoy GoIO

Offline Dementio

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2014, 04:47:20 am »
Right now pilots are less about flying skill, and more about decision making and strategy. Once you're in a situation, there's not a whole lot you can do to change that. If the enemy sneaks up on you with a metamidion, you can hydro, vent, phoenix claw, etc; but mostly it's "Oh, guess we're dead now." Because any movement you make isn't fast or dramatic enough to throw them off enough to spare you. You need to be prepared ahead of time for that kind of event, and no amount of skill will save you (most of the time).

Isn't that what a pilot is supposed to do? Prepare for certain situations so your team can get the upper hand and just win?
When I think about it all pilot tools, with the exception of spyglass and range finder, are only for emergency. Dodging with hydro/vent, escaping and making the enemy unable to follow with tar, getting the advantage in speed with kero/moonshine, making the enemy unable to fly around me with some lucky claws, and more stuff.
If you can utilize those tools just right with your current ship, then you are good to go.

Another thing to consider is your ally (this game is about teamwork, right?). If you can't survive in a close range 1v1, get your teammate to help you out. Getting sniped at? Get your ally to kill them from behind. What else is he here for? To look pretty?
Also, you are the pilot and thus most likely the captain and the one responsible for the communication between ships in your team. So you better communicate.

If you could get away with everything in every situation without any help what so ever then, and only then, would I consider this game boring.


Offline Thomas

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2014, 06:25:56 am »
That's one way of interpreting it. I do love the tactical part, but beyond that there's not a lot of skill in the actual piloting part. There's not a lot of high skill maneuvers to perform or fancy flying. Most of the time I hear players say "Wow! You're a great pilot" is when I move my ship through a narrow area without getting glued to buildings and losing half the armor. That's a pretty low bar.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2014, 12:17:01 pm »
That's one way of interpreting it. I do love the tactical part, but beyond that there's not a lot of skill in the actual piloting part. There's not a lot of high skill maneuvers to perform or fancy flying. Most of the time I hear players say "Wow! You're a great pilot" is when I move my ship through a narrow area without getting glued to buildings and losing half the armor. That's a pretty low bar.

Interesting. *I* hear that when I ram ships off gun arcs to save allies, survive for 3+ minutes sitting on point with a 10% health Squid by excessive use of Hydrogen and Chute Vent to dodge incoming attacks, ram ships into buildings and spin just enough to glance off them and bring guns into arc faster than usual...

In short, there are a number of skilled piloting tricks that are still an active part of the game. It's just not a lot of super reactive piloting tricks. You need to predict the enemy and be moving before they enter their commands.

The way I see it, Engineer and gunning are largely games of micro: you have to be fast on your feet, able to respond to changes the instant they occur, and have a good eye for prioritization. Piloting, however, is mostly about macro: you have to know the game state, your opponents gun arcs, and your opponents *strategy,* and you have to be planning and executing the counter-strategy before they've even really started to act.

It's just a different set of skills from the fast-paced reaction game some people on this thread seem to want.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2014, 03:56:10 am »
yes a more fun set of skills