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Realism has had it's fun...

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Alistair MacBain:
I remember several SR where for example the Thralls used a dual gat + top mortar mobula to great effect on fjords when they manage to get close.
And they often paired it with a closerange pyra ...

Yes you need to think about your engagement and cant just charge head on in. Yes squid and goldfish need adjustment but i wont say that the issue of the goldfish for example is that it cant snipe ...
Its its 1 gun focus which is just outperformed in most situations by other ships.

RearAdmiralZill:
I swear I log into a different game then you guys do sometimes.

redria:
Urz, the problem with your simplified strategies is that the most effective strategy will always be to sit at range and snipe from your spawn. No matter what changes are made, the safest bet is to sit at range and take pot-shots. The range is more forgiving, meaning you are less likely to die from a small mistake. You have back-up if one of you dies. It is harder to be ambushed because you control the area.
As long as there are sniping weapons, there will be a lot of people that take sniping builds. Because it will always work. If it reaches a point where it doesn't work, then the devs will have broken the game. Both long range and short range builds should be viable for every map.

However we don't only see sniping matches. We see a lot of them, but not just sniping matches, and the snipers don't always win. If the snipers were consistently winning, your argument would hold water, but the sniping team doesn't always win. GwTh took a recent rumble with a close range mobula/pyra and close range spire/pyra combo.
As long as there is a serious competitive scene, there will be a lot of sniping simply because it is effective. Just like teams can let overtime end a match in a tie just to move on to a better map. It is an effective strategy.
It is just a really lame one.
Some teams commit to using close range builds regardless of their opponent, and do it effectively because they know how to.
The game is fairly balanced because on almost every map (I'm looking at you dunes) there are several options available for closing in on a sniping enemy. Brawling is just naturally a much higher risk. You put yourself that close to the enemy and only one of you is getting out a live. Small mistakes will kill you. It is more interesting, but some teams just won't want to take that risk.

This is such a unique game that balancing is absurdly difficult to manage. It is in a remarkably good spot right now. Ships don't need to be faster. Guns are pretty balanced. The competitive scene is seeing different builds (a spire in competitive that wasn't Museosaur? Whaaaaat?). On any given day you can't really tell if the sniping team or the brawling team will have the advantage.
Some ships and builds require very different tactics that aren't as apparent as turn ship, sit still, and fire. Goldfish is one of those. Someday soon I want to see OVW bring Shadowsword to competitive and see if we can change some minds.

Like Zill says, I'm not sure what game you guys are playing, but there is a lot going on here that seems to be ignored because of a few outliers.

(also, pyramidions can go head to head with junkers. It isn't that hard. I'm not sure where everyone keeps getting that idea.)

Urz:

--- Quote from: redria on March 04, 2014, 03:29:21 pm ---However we don't only see sniping matches. We see a lot of them, but not just sniping matches, and the snipers don't always win. If the snipers were consistently winning, your argument would hold water, but the sniping team doesn't always win.
--- End quote ---

Here are the matchups from the finals of the last month of weeklies I have run.

The Sunday Rumble #26 - 03/02/14
Finals: The Gents vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Mobula
Game 2 Canyon - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion
Game 3 Dunes - sniper Pyra/Junker vs double sniper Mobula

The Saturday Box Social #7 - 03/01/14
Finals: Crimson Sky Riders vs The Mandarins
Game 1 Duel - Metamidion/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker
Game 2 Canyon - Metamidion/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker

The Sunday Rumble #25 - 02/23/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Dunes - sniper Spire/Metamidion vs sniper Mobula/Hades Pyra
Game 2 Paritan - brawl Spire/Metamidion vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion
Game 3 Fjords - Metamidion/brawl Mobula vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion

The Saturday Box Social #6 - 02/22/14
Finals: The Gents vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion (TIE GAME)
Game 2 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Mobula
Game 3 Canyon - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion

The Sunday Rumble #24 - 02/16/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs The Gents
Game 1 Duel - double Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 2 Paritan - double Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 3 Fjords - Mercamidion/Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker

The Saturday Box Social #5 - 02/15/14
Finals: Sacrilege vs The Mandarins
Game 1 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Junker
Game 2 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker

The Sunday Rumble #23 - 02/09/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs SIRI
Game 1 Fjords - brawl Mobula/Metamidion vs sniper Junker/Mobula
Game 2 Paritan - brawl Spire/Metamidion vs sniper Junker/brawl Galleon

The Saturday Box Social #4 - 02/08/14
Finals: The Mandarins vs Sacrilege
Game 1 Canyon - double sniper Junker vs sniper Junker/Metamidion
Game 2 Duel - double sniper Junker vs double Metamidion

The Sunday Rumble #22 - 02/02/14
Finals: The Gents vs Glowwater Thralls
Game 1 Canyon - sniper Junker/Mobula vs sniper Spire/Galleon
Game 2 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs sniper Spire/Galleon

The Saturday Box Social #3 - 02/01/14
Finals: The Mandarins vs The Gents
Game 1 Dunes - double sniper Junker vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 2 Duel - double sniper Junker vs sniper Galleon/Junker



That is 11 sniper vs sniper games, 2 brawl vs brawl games, 6 wins for sniper over brawl, and 4 wins for brawl over sniper (32 snipers and 14 brawlers, 70% of teams in the finals run snipers). The two most competitively successful teams in the game (Gents and Ducks) exclusively run sniper builds (Skrimskraw has also told me that he would run sniper builds if he wanted maximum win rate). If you want to go back to the last major tournament, Anvalan Conflict, the two teams in the finals were The Paddling (sniper Galleon + Pyra/Junker) and The Gents (sniper Galleon + sniper Junker). Both teams 3-0'd brawling opponents in the semifinals.

Imagine:
So, two things (and keep in mind here that yes, as a caster I would love for more brawls because it tends to be a lot more exciting to commentate, and no, the nuances of sniping aren't lost to me, just saying this from a what's more entertaining to watch perspective).

1) Can we really say that if long range didn't exist, those two particular teams still wouldn't be the top two teams?

2) Once again, the amount of percentage these matches make up is probably what... 5% of the matches played? Leaving competition aside, is any of this that big of an issue for what almost everyone else plays the game like?

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