Ship Scrambling and Other Upcoming Features

[NoWuffo]

I'm going to try to stay as unbiased and level headed as possible, but keep in mind I too am outraged by this, and find myself yet again questioning the decisions being made. I didn't even believe when I was told about this system. I know it's been an idea tossed around in the past by some players who were tired of being on the losing side since they didn't take the time to organize a team or clan. But up until now, I thought the general consensus from anyone with any respectable amount of experience with this game was that it was way too difficult to implement, too unpopular to force on players, and potentially too caustic of an idea for the community as a whole. I figured the general outcry of "No, no, anything but that!" would prevail. Now I hear that you're putting this exact thing in the game.

Muse, I'm speaking directly at you for this one. The past few patches have appeared to be following a trend that many of us have not been happy with. Hearing this news, it seems as if you're forsaking many of your players' opinions all together. I understand that this is your game and you have the right to try anything you want, but keep in mind any piece of art submitted to the world is no longer just the property of the artist, but it belongs to everyone who beholds it. I'm begging you to please listen to the community response to this one. I can promise you I'll be trying it out if it's implemented in the Dev App, but I know my opinions shall not change, and I will still be beating the war drums in terms of feedback. This is not simply because of a pre-determined bias, this is because I don't believe the game should be played like this. I don't agree with the direction things are headed, and as a captain I feel responsible to at least try to hop on the helm and turn the wheel.

[Asteria Bisset]

I can't really say much in defense of "organized teamplay" because I don't fly on those ships. I am firmly in the boat of floating between groups and being in PUG matches because that's how I operate. I can work in an organized team but most of my enjoyment from the game doesn't come from flying with EVERYONE on my friends list. Flying against people I know is just as fun. I don't mind doing that which is why I said I didn't mind the scrambling feature for ships. In fact, all I have been doing lately is flying against people I know because their ships are always full of people we both know anyway! I don't have to fly WITH them to enjoy their company.

When people with established clans and teams want to fight with each other and are REALLY intent on it, they will go out of their way to make games where that is possible. You can make passworded rooms if you want. You can publicly release those passwords. Put those passwords in the room names even! There are ways around the scrambling system if you really want to avoid the system if it ever goes in.

The problem is when even the winning team doesn't find their victories rewarding because they know they'll win 100% of the time against people who have no clue how to deal with something that looks insurmountable. There's no way to change that easily without going through hoops and chutes to make it possible to change the field. That's a component that scrambling supposedly is trying to alleviate.

I get that you want to foster a competitive community, but the majority precisely is not that. If you look at any kind of competitive game, the majority of it's popularity comes from it's NON-COMPETITIVE community. Organized teams and clans are the minority. They are an important and integral part of the game and how it currently operates but without outsiders to see their accomplishments, the teams are meaningless. They're nothing more than just a conglomeration of people that wear a fancy nametag to look cool. That's not a competitive team.

So I applaud Muse for trying to make the game more meaningful to the people that will going around singing the praises of the people who will make it look awesome in competition. I already do that and I want more people like me who would appreciate what the teams REALLY represent to GoIO.

[Gryphos]

It's about time I put in my opinion.
I'm with the people who think that both the scramble and ship-swap system are good ideas.

A thing you need to think about is: who are the people who are objecting to this? Those who are part of high level competitive teams, those who are part of set teams. In other words, a rather small minority. What about the majority of the community? Those who don't (or very rarely) fly with a set group of friends or in a team. I count myself as part of this majority (it's very rarely I actually fly with Overwatch).

Bottom line: stacked teams are a serious problem. To that I think at least most if us can agree. And this system will go a good way to dealing with this problem.

Now people can say "it will only mean teams will leave and start new lobbies" and that it will only lead to an increase in unfilled lobbies. To that I say, you're right, it will... But who's fault will that be? It won't be Muse's fault, it'll be the fault of the organised team that decided to leave, the people who will throw a strop because they didn't get to play with their friends or teammates EVERY SINGLE game. I get it, it's fun and useful to play with people you know, but are you really saying you can't play with someone different for ONE game?

Again, this is of course just my opinion, and no disrespect to anyone who disagrees, but I'm glad Muse is putting something like this in place.

[N-Sunderland]

Now people can say "it will only mean teams will leave and start new lobbies" and that it will only lead to an increase in unfilled lobbies. To that I say, you're right, it will... But who's fault will that be? It won't be Muse's fault, it'll be the fault of the organised team that decided to leave, the people who will throw a strop because they didn't get to play with their friends or teammates EVERY SINGLE game. 

Whose fault it is doesn't change whether it would be an issue or not. The problem is that the system would allow (and likely often result in) the teams to go and make another lobby, leaving us with a whole bunch of fractured matches.

[dragonmere]

If this is intended to be PUG/casual based, why can't MUSE just come out and say it? I'll back the hell off immediately. You won't have me 'chasing off' the new users. They'll just be not playing for more than a few hours for no particular reason. Perfect, right?

Instead, "keeping organized groups happy is a prime goal" with absolutely no substance to back that up. They really need to quit claiming they care about actual organization and competition while patching the game to the opposite effect. In private conversation, MUSE claims they want everyone to be in a group as organized and competitive as The Cohort, and then publicly come out against organized competitive teams. Please all, please none. They need to make up their mind so I can stop arguing my position.

Send me an engraved plaque or a piece of MUSE letter-head that says "You officially broke GoIO by being too organized." I'll hang it on my wall, and you won't have to worry about me anymore. Because, apparently, that's what's happening?

[GreyTea]

I think a point is being missed and that is that a few weeks ago when the game was on sale there was up-to a 1000 people waiting to get into a game, once the game went off sale the numbers plunged straight back down to the same 80-150 people waiting,
There was obviously money made from the influx of sales but very little of the users stuck around to actually play the game i think that the lobby system comes into it, if you join a lobby and the blue team is all clan lvl 7+ for example and you are new to the game you will leave 9/10 and try and find enough lobby if there is any running,
OR
You join a lobby and get beat become frustrated and there is no way to change the outcome you get disheartened, same as the achievements system and level up system not being fully explained so people don't really see a point to play,

Muse really has to do core changes to the game to help this situation obviously the feeling must be stacked lobby's is a massive Issue, we have all seen how some people react to a level 1 person join he's got a buff kit no mic and hes ready to help the ship out with good intentions 9/10 what happens  he get's berated into changing everything why?? because you were told to..
If you don't comply then your a troll or you really want to buff you get asked to leave,

We are all guilty of this because when captain we know how we want our ship ran, in my opinion a vocal captain helps because even though you are telling them what to do they are learning the game allot quicker and explain why you don't need buff on your ship and some captains might on this ect ect,, than joining against a organised high level team who share the same lobbies fully kitted out mic'd up and you are on a galleon lvl 1 pilot who has already readied up to the new players how is this an encouraging environment to stick around and play, something needs to be done,

Yes the higher players and clans might be feeling hard done by, yes this is a niche title but the game needs to make money if you want updates adventure mode server quality bug fixes, This is someones job and they want to make the game more friendly to newer players so they become competitive and the scene grows when the game gets bigger they can even add intermediate lobbys maybe to go with novice or even advanced,

i think people should stop trying to blame muse for trying to kill the own competitive scene because it makes no sense why they would want to do that when numbers are so low clans make up majority of people, and instead use there clear knowledge and experience of the game to help come up with a solution, because just shouting down no change is going to get no were,

How can you expect to verse better people if no one wants to get better,

Ship scramble is a way to force interaction with different players, which is not favorable if your playing with friends but imagine the benefits it might have, the advice you can give knowledge because this game is not easy to pick up and play, when you get into the mechanics and different types of damage on guns,  imagine when you started playing and this feature was in and the teams were even you didn't lose as much you learnt the game faster,

There is some tweaking needed such as with the scramble what is stopping the opposition just requesting a swap as mentioned in the updates, what locks them in place, lobbies might just go dead, so what can we come up with that is balanced fair and easy to implement,

[The Churrosaur]

Looking at things hollistically, the idea of creating a completely balanced, perfectly fair game utopia is about as realistic as building a functional pyramidion. There will always be winners, losers, lovers, and haters. We might as well just give up.

Regardless,

I point I would like to bring out however, is that it seems to me that the problem of "stacked teams" is to me not a problem of clans vs. pugs. While admittedly Friday Gents practice often ends up being a series of pub stomps, I find that the majority of lobbies where one team is clearly dominating another are actually cases of differences that in this discussion have been lumped together- often times it'll be level 4-5's vs. 1-3's or even a difference as small as a single captain on one team with a microphone. One team will dominate, hands down. Match, after match, after match. THESE are a majority of the "stacked" lobbies that I see, it's these lobbies that cause people to rage and complain, and for this case I'll say Yes! by all means scramble the ships- most of those players wouldn't mind, it would probably even achieve what it's supposed to achieve.

Before you carronade my beliefs into the dust below however- most of the friction with this idea comes from the fact that by scrambling ships Muse is rustling one of the key components and attractions of this game, which is the cooperation and communication required and gained from running a well co-ordinated team of ships. I totally agree. working as a well coordinated team with other captains that you know well and play with often is one of the most rewarding and fun things about GOI, and being stuck with an unresponsive tactless ally is not only enraging, but results in a match ultimately resigned to fail.

So why don't we satisfy everybody and MAKE SCRAMBLING A MATCH OPTION

(seriously, I'm like the hundredth person to suggest this.)

Now the new blood stops complaining about stacking, the mid-levels get fun games, and the veterans are free to fly teams to their hearts contents.

C'mon, there's even a convenient little blank area underneath the novice match slider.

[Omniraptor]

Personally, I think most team stacks are not malicious. I suggest rolling out the "ship swap" feature first and seeing whether the issue resolves- ship and crew swap is perfectly voluntary and most people seem to have no problem with it, and it serves mostly the same purpose as mandatory ship scrambling, which is controversial and maybe not a good idea.

Since the community at large is pretty cooperative/nice and most stacked matches (in my experience) don't "unstack" because it's too difficult to get everyone to move while preserving crew composition. Once switching sides becomes a matter of two mouse clicks, I think people will be much more willing to move around.

Implement the switching mechanic first, wait on the more drastic scramble mechanic. However, if it's still a big problem after switching gets implemented, then maybe mandatory scrambling is in order.

[The Churrosaur]

This man speaks genius.

[dragonmere]

A huge problem that I have is with identifying legitimate problems within this community. Up until now, "Stacking is ruining this game!!!" has held about as much weight as "Boarding would be more FUN!!!" It's been rhetoric, and nothing more. There is NO reason to believe stacking has a negative impact on player retention. But now, apparently, we have MUSE saying "It's true!".

This is based on casual, non-scientific observation....   
During the Steam Summer Sale surge, the ratio between normal and novice lobbies was probably about 1:4; at least. For every normal lobby, there was at least 4 or more Novice lobbies at the same moment. Mostly filled. Somewhere around 80% (fairly conservatively) of the NEW players played damn near exclusively in Novice matches. They did not come up against "STACKED" teams. They saw this game for what it is, and decided (of their own free will) that it was not worth their time. Why are we blaming this on organized teams? I do NOT understand. At all. Give me some proof. Please.

I have introduced this game to about 10-15 people in a "balanced team" atmosphere, and they still did NOT like it. Due to the nature and quality of the game. Not the composure of the teams.  From my observations, player retention is more likely related to the quality and overall composure of the game - not the enemy team.

If this is for real 100% a legit problem - that experienced people are choosing to play with people they know on purpose - and it is making the game unplayable for new players, a scramble function isn't going to fix jack squat. We'll work around it. We're just going to make a new lobby, and MUSE will have fixed nothing. We're going to continue to learn to work together, get better, and continue 'ruining' this game.

The only way to fix this problem - IF IT'S REAL - is eliminating the people who like to play this game in a organized and competitive fashion.

I absolutely 100% for sure fall into this category. So I need to stop playing in the way I find enjoyable and rewarding, or just stop playing entirely, if I actually give half a damn about this 'community'.

I do give a damn. But I'm not going to stop being competitive. Team building and a competitive mind-frame are the only ways I have found to enjoy this game, despite short comings that may very well be causing many people to not play.

I hope you can see I'm up against a rock and a hard place. This is why I am so obviously frustrated.

[Captain Smollett]

Why are we blaming this on organized teams? I do NOT understand. At all. Give me some proof. Please.

I don't think Muse is blaming anything on organized teams.  They're trying to ameliorate a known and well reported issue in the game community that is only is slightly related to clans.  I've seen no less than 3 threads with long discussions about stacked teams so there must at least be some issue if it's getting that much discussion.

I think Muse's heart is in the right place with this in that they're trying to make the game fun for everyone. It really doesn't come off as a personal attack against clan/competitive players. I don't feel very strongly either way regarding the "scramble".  I don't think it will solve the issue and it certainly doesn't stop teams from making new lobbies to stay together.  For me the game really wouldn't be changed much by it either way, if the swap happens and it seems like the match will be fun cool, if I want to stay flying with my fellow captain or the swap doesn't seem fun I'll leave to a new match.

[HamsterIV]

I didn't read the all the rants, but I have a new point:
When you get stuck on a team with a captain who doesn't know how to work a ship and refuses to learn/take advice the ship (lets call him Leroy) the scramble would be a blessing. It will spread the burden of having to put up with Leroy around to each ship on the server. It will give an exceptional captain a chance to show they can win regardless of how stupid their ally is. It will also give the last captain to fly with the Leroy some catharsis as he pummels Leroy into the ground.

When I am stuck flying under a bad captain I feel no sorrow for abandoning him. When I am flying with a good crew and a bad ally ship I feel bad leaving a crew that did nothing wrong.

[Keyvias]

Personally, I think most team stacks are not malicious. I suggest rolling out the "ship swap" feature first and seeing whether the issue resolves- ship and crew swap is perfectly voluntary and most people seem to have no problem with it, and it serves mostly the same purpose as mandatory ship scrambling, which is controversial and maybe not a good idea.

Since the community at large is pretty cooperative/nice and most stacked matches (in my experience) don't "unstack" because it's too difficult to get everyone to move while preserving crew composition. Once switching sides becomes a matter of two mouse clicks, I think people will be much more willing to move around.

Implement the switching mechanic first, wait on the more drastic scramble mechanic. However, if it's still a big problem after switching gets implemented, then maybe mandatory scrambling is in order.

Yup, player controlled ship and crew swap is on it's way first.  Nothing to test there, it's something we've been missing and we're happy to put it in as soon as it's ready.
If I never see a stacked teams thread after this. I will personally lead the charge into getting rid of anything scramble related.

I'm really happy with everyone stepping back and talking about the issue, even if you don't agree with this plan.
We have a community meeting tomorrow and have no doubt this will be first on the agenda.

I know it doesn't look like you guys are making a lot of traction, but I'll let you see behind the curtain for a moment. I promise all your feedback is taken very seriously.
Since this thread I've had 4 impromptu meetings about better ways to solve this problem and as I said I've got another tomorrow.

I'll do my best to keep everyone up to date after we have our fifth (and I doubt final) meeting.

Keep up the ideas and the discussion though! I'm going to have this thread open tomorrow.

[ramjamslam]

I agree with dragonmere in that Muse should look deeper into why players don't stay, that is if they haven't already.  This is to say that I don't think these details need to be public knowledge, but I would consider investigating scenarios such as whether:

• players who hit rank 4 with ranks 4 3 3 (any class) are more likely to continue playing than players who hit rank 4 with ranks 4 1 1
• similarly players who hit rank 4 with greater than X matches are more likely to continue playing than players who hit rank 4 in less than X matches
• players who are using a clan tag with other similarly ranked players are more likely to continue playing than players who don't use a clan tag
• players who are using a known clan tag are more likely to continue playing than players who don't use a clan tag of an existing clan
• players who obtained a copy of the game through a 4 pack are more likely to continue playing than players who bought a single copy (I have no idea if you can actually track this)
• players who use party chat regularly within X matches are more likely to continue playing than players who don't use party chat
• players who join non novice matches within X matches are more likely to continue playing than players who stay in novice matches
• players who take part in training matches (novice match with trainer/CA on ship) are more likely to continue playing than average player
• players who rarely experience 5 to 0 wins or losses in their first X matches are more likely to continue playing than players who only experience 5 to 0 matches
• players who typed 'gg' into chat after all of their first X matches are more likely to continue playing than players who type 'noob crew' into chat after their first X matches

(and some bonus ones)

• players who have a pyramidion with 'Ram' in the name (named after me of course) are more likely to continue playing than players who have never even met me D:
• players who have burned lots of ships with flamers and banshees are more likely to continue playing than players who use boring old gat/mortar

Discovering where (most importantly) the stayers are coming from should help plan tweaking the areas Muse should address.  The items I list above are things I assume you have data on, but I do not know how much you do or do not keep a record of.  Answers to the above questions could spur innovation in different directions such as tournaments for level locked clans, more recruitment drives from existing clans into novice matches, more support for players to keep in touch with each other in game (through a clan communication system), a greater drive for CA and trainer presence in novice matches, reevaluating the novice match lockout at level 4 or Pyramidions being named 'RamJamSlam Pyramidion' instead of 'Pyramidion Pyramidion' by default.

Lastly, I would like to say that I understand that GoIO player data is confidential and I don't assume that you would share it with the community, just that you would take it into consideration when planning.

[-Mad Maverick-]

I think what we need to do is overhaul the entire matchmaking process.  I mean let's be honest if the teams are "stacked" sooo badly that it causes someone to go and take the time out and make a forum post or message a dev about it they aren't going to stick around for five matches anyway.

every other game that is pvp and has a steep learning curve like HON or madden have a comprehensive ranking systems for each player.   these rankings based on things like games played, kdr, etc.  will help us make a pairing system that would put players if similar rank together(or as closely ranked as possible).  without an accurate way of assessing skill levels we will always risk having players feeling in over their head.

the "quick join" option as it is at this very moment is completely unhelpful and often detrimental to someone's experience.  for instance;  I'm Johnny newbie and I was to gun and I have no other friends who play the game.  I log in do the tutorial and feel ready to roll.  I select my class and hit "quick join" only to join a match and have my crew mates asking me to "log out change my class to engi and log back in".   what a bunch of jerks these guys are trying to get me to quit just because I'm new(because I don't understand that they are actually giving me helpful feedback) well I'm just going to mount this gun and fire away cuz screw these guys.

I hope you can visualize this very real scenario and begin to see that a scramble isn't even a bandaid to the actual problem.  what we need is an ACTUAL matchmaking system.