Team Stacking - Match Balance

[Commodore Phoenix]

But we like pre-making our teams it gives us a reason to be social with other people it also lets leave other people that we don't like alone. The system we have right now isn't perfect but we try to do our best not to abuse it and I think that everyone who likes this game does. So what if we don't win every fight its not always about the victory its about what you did in the game the only time I care about winning is for doing an achievement, which is not very often anymore, so we get a hell of a lot of fun out of just being on a ship together and shooting enemies without having to worry that our actions will affect us and the enemy in a game-based way.

[Dr.Spaceman]

The biggest problem is people insisting that they stay on the same team. I have no idea how it's supposed to make the game more fun when a coordinated team of 8 people mercilessly roflstomps randoms until they alt-f4. The easiest and most fun solution is to simply have one of the crews change teams. 1 coordinated crew + 1 random crew is usually pretty equal, and it's a really quick way to improve your skill at the game when you lose to someone you play with on a regular basis. Randoms get carried, pros get a challenge, and everyone wins.

I just really hate this stacking bullshit where you hop into a game and 8 people who only play to win refuse to risk losing a game. It makes it where I can't casually play the game in random groups and expect to have fun, and it sucks.

[Cl ick to Ca p t ain]

I don't think many teams go into it thinking "oh I can't wait to smash some low level pubbies" I think it's more of "oh I can't wait to play with my friends since we know each others playstyles and can play properly"

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

It's prob not gonna happen, refering to fireside chat friday. One slight possibility a pro level restricted to which you could invite under 100 matches players, but who knows?
 

[NoWuffo]

Yeah in the Dev's fireside chat, they definitely didn't like the idea of putting a level cap on a match when setting it up. They really want to distinguish between skill level and community level. Skill level is measurable, but they said specifically they don't like the idea of discriminating based on skill level. They would be much more up to distinguishing based on your level of cooperation, as in how well you coordinate with others, if you are a team player, ect. The problem is, there's no way to quantify this value.

I suggested making the level caps be above 100 matches played only, still not a perfect solution, but way better than drawing a line at a person's level, and definitely way easier and more feasible than creating an advanced algorithm to measure a players skill and put people together against equally matched players. Regardless, the Devs said they didn't really like the idea of segregating, so most likely nothing is gonna come of this any time soon. The only solution is to just be aware of other people's game experience and try not to ruin other people's fun.

[Garou]

The only solution is to just be aware of other people's game experience and try not to ruin other people's fun.

This, x1000

I feel part of the problem may be that while the game feels 'familiar' at it's surface to anyone who has spent any amount of time playing shooters, when delving deeper the similarities stop at being in first-person and shooting guns. The actual gameplay is considerably different from most games I've played, and for a new player that realization can take a bit of time.

Aside from what NoWuffo said, the best solution I can come up with is take a deep breath, break into your patients reserve, and teach. Today's new player is tomorrow's veteran. Do what you can to speed that process xD

[roder]

i don't really think there should be a penalty. rarely do people stay in lobbies if the teams are heavily unbalanced, especially staying on the outmatched team. the wait is penalty enough, i think. 2 premade teams probably have to wait 15 mins for people that don't care/don't know any better to join the game and stay in, or another good premade team to waltz in. and the long wait itself makes people antsy and leave for faster lobbies too. And when the game does begin and the stacked team completely obliterates the other team, well no one is going to stay and they'll have to wait 15 more minutes lol

[Thomas]

-snip-
Aside from what NoWuffo said, the best solution I can come up with is take a deep breath, break into your patients reserve, and teach. Today's new player is tomorrow's veteran. Do what you can to speed that process xD

-snip-
And when the game does begin and the stacked team completely obliterates the other team, well no one is going to stay and they'll have to wait 15 more minutes lol

My biggest concern is this. I couldn't give two shakes and twirl about unbalanced matches if people enjoy playing them, or at the very least bear with them. It's just something that happens. But if this is what's causing new players to not stick around, then it's an issue. Again, I direct your attention to this graph:

http://steamcharts.com/app/209080#6m



Where you can see the obvious spikes (corresponding to sales) and falls of the playerbase. While a rapid influx is nice, more or less all of those new players seem to drop out of the game shortly after. One reason for this is the pubstomping (intentional or not). We all know that players can get a little ragey after such an event, especially new and unexperienced players. While it may or may not be the biggest cause of not keeping new players around, it's one of the most obvious, and something we can fix.

Like Garou and others pointed out, a very nice solution would be for all the vets to put on their big kid pants and help these newer players out. And as others still have pointed out, that's not going to happen. Not because some of us don't want to help, but because not everyone is willing to go to these lengths. Most people are here to play a game and have fun, not babysit and do community service; and we have to respect that. Which is why we're looking at alternate solutions.

I respect and support Muse's decision to not segregate the players, but there are other ways of doing it.

[NoWuffo]

I respect and support Muse's decision to not segregate the players, but there are other ways of doing it.

If you want to take the time to program a match selection yourself, I'm sure Muse would love to see your work. However I don't think there's a magic fix to this problem. We've recognized the issue, we've acknowledged it from all sides, but let's not beat a dead horse here. Everyone has said their main points, we're now talking in circles. Let's all be more aware of the problem, but put this thread to bed. Thanks for everyone's contributions.

[Thomas]

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2649.0.html (Match Sorting/Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2570.0.html (Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2188.0.html (Match Balance/Ranking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1902.0.html (Match Balance/Ranking/Matchmaking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1806.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1674.0.html (Level Sorting/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1497.0.html (Level Sorting/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1295.0.html (Matchmaking/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1244.0.html (Queue/Matchmaking)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,379.0.html (Pub Stomping/Teaching New Players)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,418.0.html (Level Sorting)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,491.0.html (Matchmaking/Ranking/Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,225.0.html (Match Balance)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2389.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2227.0.html (Pub Stomping)
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2325.0.html (Level Sorting)

and many, many more. I didn't bother to include examples of threads about players leaving during a match (do to unfair teams) either; or even dig up threads from the old forums. The fact that the issue continually pops up over and over again should be a pretty glaring red flag. Being aware of the issue doesn't make it go away.


There is no magic fix anymore than there is a single perfect solution.


At this point we're left with a few options. If you don't think this is a problem, don't believe there can be a solution to it, or simply don't want it to be solved; thank you. Your opinion has been noted, and you do not need to reject any suggestion to the latter with one of those reasons. (Please feel free to use constructive reasons, ie: Isn't fair for all levels, would split up the population too small, I don't want to be labeled with a rank, that method wouldn't let me play with my friends, etc).



On the other hand, if you find that this is a problem and wish to continue a productive discussion about the possibilities, we'd love to hear it. We may not be able to find a good solution, but we love the community and game enough to try.

[dragonmere]

I'm legitimately very confused as to where you get the 'information' that player retention is related to stacked matches. Yes, after the promotions end, the game loses concurrent logins. This is more likely due to the nature of people who purchase a game solely because it is on sale, or due to the recommendation of popular YouTubers. A few days/weeks after playing the game, an overwhelming majority of them will move on to whatever is on sale or recommended by popular YouTubers next. I see nothing to indicate this has to do with faults in the game or the actions of our community. This is the nature of the promotional channels that Guns of Icarus has been very successful in.

I feel as though you're accusing certain unnamed players, clans, groups or even play-styles of a negative impact on the game that simply isn't as definite as you believe. I would include myself in this group, as a member of a publicly competitive clan, and one that plays with it's own crews whenever possible. I could definitely be accused of "stacking". As such, I take the accusation that I am part of a cause of players leaving the game fairly seriously. Stating that some teams don't do it 'intentionally' doesn't negate the fact that you are still saying their actions are always detrimental. They aren't always. It can make some people upset, I'll agree. But to be completely honest, I probably get just as upset at team members who refuse to coordinate. It's just a matter of perspective.

I appreciate the time and effort you're putting into this. I really do. I just don't believe that any part of this community should be vilified as completely as you're suggesting. I feel as though you're trying to state your own personal opinion as a matter of fact. Does "stacking" happen? Yes. Does it make some people angry sometimes? Sure. That's about the only things that you can say for a fact. Anything else is conjecture. In my opinion, 'stacking' is not game breaking. In fact, you can dig up tons of posts on this topic, some very old, and yet the game is still running smoothly. In this game as a whole, we actually do a really great job of welcoming, training, and retaining new players.

[Dr.Spaceman]

tl;dr: its not my fault if people are leaving and roflstomping randoms gives newbies a great first-impression that would never drive anyone away for good

[NoWuffo]

tl;dr: its not my fault if people are leaving and roflstomping randoms gives newbies a great first-impression that would never drive anyone away for good

That is NOT the way conversations will be conducted on this forum. Chiding remarks and personal attacks are low class and not the discussions that should be taking place. Unless anyone has any specific comments about the original topic at hand, everyone please drop it.

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

my last 2 cents on this.

The graphs still show a slow rise of players from the summer. I'm sure it will continue. On store main page the whole steam community player count fluctuates too. Game server graphs have fluctuations. Very rarely you get a server that stays full or almost full 24/7.
I've not seen angry people even after stomps for some time. If treated with respect i guess they still have fun. If they leave a match how can we know what percentage leave the game and never play it or just go look for another lobby? That's up to the gamer himself. We shouldn't force people into their own decisions.

With player retention (low numbers in active players) there are other reasons, i believe. Some wait for adventure mode, lately trends in gaming of just getting games and not getting into them properly, teamwork isn't everyones cup of tea, promoting of the game needs more work, more pass of word out to friends needed.
I didn't know before i played that this game had been released a year ago. I stumbled across it half by accident in watching youtube reviewers.

However.. I bet this anniversary will get a new rise of people to the game.

[Byron Cavendish]

Jesus Christ this is really simple guys: if you don't like playing against a pre-made team, leave that lobby. No one is forcing you to be there. There are plenty of lobbies without pre-mades in them. Instead of trying to break up a group of friends trying to have fun together, why don't you just go to another lobby? Is that so freaking hard?

What kind of basic high school degree does it take to realize that in a co-op teamwork based game, people are going to team up and win games based on friendship and communication. Don't like it? You are the one choosing to play a game that embraces these ideals.

Oh and pre-mades don't have some secret tricks that you don't have. We all have chat and voice chat. Why don't you take the challenge we set and raise the bar for yourself. Improve your own team's communication. Rather than trying to bring down a well organized team, try improving your own team's communication and organization.