Medium Weapons, Anyone?

[Piemanlives]

(slightly off-topic)
It still feels weird to me now that they are referred to as medium weapons when there aren't any larger guns.

A bit of a reference to this one would assume



What would have been the heavy howitzer.

[Captain Smollett]

The medium flak is so much more powerful than the light flak.  A buffed charged shot from a heavy flak one shots a pyramidion.  You need every last shot of a buffed light flak to make a pyra kill.

Nothing compares in the game to the raw power of the lumberjack.  Find a gunner that can land every shot and prepare to have a hard time keeping anyone in your lobby after the matches end.

These weapons are hard to use granted, but they're made up for by sheer brute force.  There is absolutely nothing more satisfying in GOI than one shotting an enemy ship with a long range heavy flak round.  It's like shooting a game winning three point shot in basketball that you know is going in as it leaves your fingers and spending the next few seconds basking in glory as it slowly sinks in between the rim and swooshes through the net.

[Van Manfred]

@Piemanlives; Yeah, that one's heavy. Or the ones you can see on the battleship hulks layering the ground. Looks like a 18-20" bore on that beast. That's grade "A" bang-bang machinery for sure. 

The medium flak is so much more powerful than the light flak.  A buffed charged shot from a heavy flak one shots a pyramidion.  You need every last shot of a buffed light flak to make a pyra kill.

But not a Pyramidion with a buffed hull. Or any other kind of ship, excepting maybe an ill-crewed Spire. The perfect conditions you wrote usually only happen as the result of an ambush at startgame. Buff and load the little Flak the same way, in the same conditions, and you'll have similar results (it packs quite a punch too), as you wrote.

Nothing compares in the game to the raw power of the lumberjack.  Find a gunner that can land every shot and prepare to have a hard time keeping anyone in your lobby after the matches end.

I agree - but it requires "that gunner", not some engineer who happens to pass by, like for a Light gun. The real edge here is the gunner's quality, more than the gun's. A great engineer, too, is quite the boon. Great gunners can indeed make good use of any weapons, Medium ones included. But as I wrote, they require more specific conditions, that you are not entirely sure to have if you don't sign in with your own full crew.

These weapons are hard to use granted, but they're made up for by sheer brute force.  There is absolutely nothing more satisfying in GOI than one shotting an enemy ship with a long range heavy flak round.  It's like shooting a game winning three point shot in basketball that you know is going in as it leaves your fingers and spending the next few seconds basking in glory as it slowly sinks in between the rim and swooshes through the net.

Aye !!!
But nonetheless, I just wish there was more choices and polyvalency in Medium weapons still.

[Echoez]

There simply ain't enough Heavy weapon content at the moment and since Muse refuses to add some sort of heavy flamethrower or a heavy auto-cannon there probably won't be enough brawling heavy guns in the future either, it's a pity to see the big boys underused for sure.

[The Djinn]

There simply ain't enough Heavy weapon content at the moment and since Muse refuses to add some sort of heavy flamethrower or a heavy auto-cannon there probably won't be enough brawling heavy guns in the future either, it's a pity to see the big boys underused for sure.

I can sort of understand that though...if you have a heavy auto-cannon with good armor shredding or a really strong brawling weapon, the Galleon suddenly becomes a complete beast, as it's able to just kill you quickly with any side.

It also makes heavy gun tag-teams WAY to powerful: imagine a faster-than-gatling armor shred on a Auto-Cannon fish, while a Lochnager Flak Fish flies alongside him.

[Echoez]

I can sort of understand that though...if you have a heavy auto-cannon with good armor shredding or a really strong brawling weapon, the Galleon suddenly becomes a complete beast, as it's able to just kill you quickly with any side.

It also makes heavy gun tag-teams WAY to powerful: imagine a faster-than-gatling armor shred on a Auto-Cannon fish, while a Lochnager Flak Fish flies alongside him.

A brawling Galleon will never be a problem in my eyes as long as the Lumberjack exists and that ship itself is as slow as it is now simply enough cause it's too easy to counter and keep out of its gun arcs. There is a reason that ship ain't that good at brawling even with the current Uber-carronade of blending doom side that we've seen used in Flotsam, it's lack of agility is very easily taken advantage of, plus an Auto-cannon would require aimming and leading, wouldn't be hit scan, as long as it isn't way better than the old Gatling in 1.2 I don't see a problem with it and would make for a good weapon both aestheticaly as well as challenging to fire on the move.


Flakfish would still be horrible cause it's not a self suffiecient ship and has 0 utility.

A Heavy Flamerthrower of kinds or even a Napalm gun would add to the brawling arsenal of heavy guns with lots of utility and a sort of jack of all trades but master of none, could also have an interesting mechanic, utilizing liquid gasoline so you have an arc'ed stream of fire to aim with istead of the gas based light flamer.

These are guns that could be utilized on all heavy gun ships and provide some much needed variety, honestly after than 900th Sniper Galleon I have seen, even a "Gat/Flak" Galleon would be a welcome change.

Or even  lightning based tesla gun, they even have models ready for these that are not used.

It's not my game to make, but there's so much that could be done and isn't being done, the arsenal of heavy guns is left lacking and I'm honestly already burnt out of the current guns as a guy that likes flying the ships that equip them.

[Van Manfred]

A Heavy Flamerthrower of kinds or even a Napalm gun would add to the brawling arsenal of heavy guns with lots of utility and a sort of jack of all trades but master of none, could also have an interesting mechanic, utilizing liquid gasoline so you have an arc'ed stream of fire to aim with istead of the gas based light flamer.

(...) Or even  lightning based tesla gun, they even have models ready for these that are not used.

Terrific ideas.
+1

[Sprayer]

The medium flak is so much more powerful than the light flak.  A buffed charged shot from a heavy flak one shots a pyramidion.  You need every last shot of a buffed light flak to make a pyra kill.

But not a Pyramidion with a buffed hull. Or any other kind of ship, excepting maybe an ill-crewed Spire. The perfect conditions you wrote usually only happen as the result of an ambush at startgame. Buff and load the little Flak the same way, in the same conditions, and you'll have similar results (it packs quite a punch too), as you wrote.

Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.

Specific condition for Lumberjack? A gunner who has some experience with it and you can effectively use it at 1000m, a gunner who regularly uses it and you can effectively use it on up to 2000m. Other than that, the enemy has to stay further away than 176m or 165m (Greased/Heatsink or Incendiary) which, considering the nature of the gun, shouldn't be a problem as long as the pilot is able enough to point his broadside at the enemy before the enemy is already on the approach for the ram. Only the Mercury and Typhoon have comparable ranged effectiveness, the Mercury does not strips hulls even half as fast as the LJ, the Typhoon is a Medium weapon.

Heavy Carronade needs two shots to take down bloons, as long as the bloon is not clapped with a mallet in between those shots. If the Carro is buffed, even the clap won't help the victim. It also has greater range than the light carronade. The light carronade might still be better though, comparing the goldfish with heavy carro to pyramidion, the pyra would have two light carros which would take as long to pop bloons as one heavy one and deal some damage to armor on top. comparing the blenderfish to squid, the squid can way more easily stay out of gunarcs of enemy ships whilst getting its front gun to shoot the enemy quicker.
The use of the Hellhound on the Spire is... arguable to say the least.
The Hellhound on the galleon would only be compareable to Barking Dog on Junker I assume.... but I won't dare to do that comparison here.

Manticore: Disable entire ships in about two seconds is useless? That is a powerful ability in my opinion. Coordinate with teammate to use the time in which one enemy is entirely helpless. (for example, goldfish disables one enemy, then uses sidemounted gatling to help strip the other enemy whilst the captain on the first ship can't do anything but look)

I give you that, the medium weapons don't excel among all the weapons in the game. Don't think of the weapon categories as Medium>Light, think of them as equals with different uses. After all, you don't compare all explosive weapons to all piercing weapons either.

[Van Manfred]

Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.

Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too.

Specific condition for Lumberjack? A gunner who has some experience with it and you can effectively use it at 1000m, a gunner who regularly uses it and you can effectively use it on up to 2000m. Other than that, the enemy has to stay further away than 176m or 165m (Greased/Heatsink or Incendiary) which, considering the nature of the gun, shouldn't be a problem as long as the pilot is able enough to point his broadside at the enemy before the enemy is already on the approach for the ram. Only the Mercury and Typhoon have comparable ranged effectiveness, the Mercury does not strips hulls even half as fast as the LJ, the Typhoon is a Medium weapon.

I'll admit that the generally longer range of medium weapon makes them deadly in the hands of a great gunner. And with a great pilot at the wheel. And in a open battlefield. And versus a below-average opponent.

Heavy Carronade needs two shots to take down bloons, as long as the bloon is not clapped with a mallet in between those shots. If the Carro is buffed, even the clap won't help the victim. It also has greater range than the light carronade. The light carronade might still be better though, comparing the goldfish with heavy carro to pyramidion, the pyra would have two light carros which would take as long to pop bloons as one heavy one and deal some damage to armor on top. comparing the blenderfish to squid, the squid can way more easily stay out of gunarcs of enemy ships whilst getting its front gun to shoot the enemy quicker.
The use of the Hellhound on the Spire is... arguable to say the least.
The Hellhound on the galleon would only be compareable to Barking Dog on Junker I assume.... but I won't dare to do that comparison here.

A wise decision. Carronades are at their best when you have a vertical movement advantage over your opponent - to shoot at the balloon, then to get back at the fast-descending target. For this reason, the heavy ones are only usable as a main armement on a Goldfish "playing Squid" (a task at which the Squid, with a lighter carronade, is better). I agree that carronades usually suck as a defensive armement on the slower vessels.

Manticore: Disable entire ships in about two seconds is useless? That is a powerful ability in my opinion. Coordinate with teammate to use the time in which one enemy is entirely helpless. (for example, goldfish disables one enemy, then uses sidemounted gatling to help strip the other enemy whilst the captain on the first ship can't do anything but look)

Now that's a defensive weaponnery. The Hwachas are good to impose an area of denial, but their lack of precision, loading time and relatively low concentrated damage makes them ill-suited to the finishing role. And yet they're still the best thing to mount on a Galleon, given their ease of use in a hurry, unless you have a clear enough horizon to play bang-bang with two gunners and heavy flak/Lumberjack.

To disable a ship - and to finish it, you must certainly be familiar with the heavy- then charged-clipped Gatling, IMO a much better weapon.

I give you that, the medium weapons don't excel among all the weapons in the game. Don't think of the weapon categories as Medium>Light, think of them as equals with different uses. After all, you don't compare all explosive weapons to all piercing weapons either.

You are right - but they are not an alternative to light weapons. A medium weapon slot cannot accomodate a lighter one. And because of this, I would like having more hoice, more polyvalency out of them. Imagine how the Goldfish and Spires would be good with more choices.

[Captain Smollett]

Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.

Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too

Again this is incorrect.  I have a carefully curated spreadsheet containing the dps for every weapon in the game and there is no light weapon that outshines its heavy variant in dps. 

[Sprayer]

Why call this a discussion? You obviously already made up your mind and are not open to the arguments of more experienced players.

[The Djinn]

Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too.

Assuming we're talking DPS against favorable components, the most effective Heavy Gun against a given component often outdamages the most effective light gun against that component (in terms of Damage-per-Second).

Balloon: 173 (Heavy Carronade) vs. 158 (Light Carronade)
Hull: 158 (Heavy Flak) vs 158 (Mortar)
Guns/Engines: 232 (Lumberjack Heavy Mortar) vs 112 (Mercury Field Gun)
Armor: 48 (Heavy Carronade) vs 60 (Gatling)

As you can see from these numbers (which are pretty accurate by my friend's calculations...others can confirm, I hope), against everything but Armor the Medium guns are superior, whether because of raw damage or (in the case of the Flak vs Mortar tie) because of range.

I'll admit that the generally longer range of medium weapon makes them deadly in the hands of a great gunner. And with a great pilot at the wheel.

Agreed here. Difficult to use weapons are better in the hands of better players. Fact.

And in a open battlefield. And versus a below-average opponent.

Largely untrue. Open battlefields and below-average opponents make these weapons easier to use, but skilled opponents or close-quarters fighting just requires a bit more knowledge and ability with those weapons. It doesn't suddenly make them bad.

A wise decision. Carronades are at their best when you have a vertical movement advantage over your opponent - to shoot at the balloon, then to get back at the fast-descending target. For this reason, the heavy ones are only usable as a main armement on a Goldfish "playing Squid" (a task at which the Squid, with a lighter carronade, is better).

...A Goldfish is really damn good at blending balloons, boss. A touch of Chute Vent completely negates any advantage the Squid may have in vertical movement to follow the target, and the Heavy Carronade loses basically nothing over the Light Carronade for keeping an opponent pinned or shredding their armor. The greater health and armor allows you to survive more attempts to have someone force you off your target, and also allows you more leeway to actually physically pin your target to the ground. It has different strengths, but it's far from "playing Squid."

Now that's a defensive weaponnery. The Hwachas are good to impose an area of denial, but their lack of precision, loading time and relatively low concentrated damage makes them ill-suited to the finishing role. And yet they're still the best thing to mount on a Galleon, given their ease of use in a hurry, unless you have a clear enough horizon to play bang-bang with two gunners and heavy flak/Lumberjack.

To disable a ship - and to finish it, you must certainly be familiar with the heavy- then charged-clipped Gatling, IMO a much better weapon.

Gatlings are terrible at disabling ships compared to a Hwacha: they deal 77 dps to ship components, and their scatter makes it difficult to focus on a single component: it takes over 4 seconds of concentrated fire to take out a single engine. The Hwacha, meanwhile, does 118 dps to ships with a large burst radius. In that 4 seconds you can take out three engines, or all the guns on a Galleon's broadside, or all of a Junker's broadside plus an engine...and so forth. There's no comparing the two for ship disabling.

Additionally, a Heavy Clip Hwacha has incredible precision at ranges greater than a gatling's, and can also damage components near the target area. Finally, the Hwacha deals nearly x5 the Gatling's damage to a ship's hull. The only place the gatling wins is in damage to armor.

You are right - but they are not an alternative to light weapons. A medium weapon slot cannot accomodate a lighter one. And because of this, I would like having more hoice, more polyvalency out of them. Imagine how the Goldfish and Spires would be good with more choices.

This I'll grant you. A few more options for Heavy Weapons would be rather nice.

[Van Manfred]

Assuming we're talking DPS against favorable components, the most effective Heavy Gun against a given component often outdamages the most effective light gun against that component (in terms of Damage-per-Second).

Balloon: 173 (Heavy Carronade) vs. 158 (Light Carronade)
Hull: 158 (Heavy Flak) vs 158 (Mortar)
Guns/Engines: 232 (Lumberjack Heavy Mortar) vs 112 (Mercury Field Gun)
Armor: 48 (Heavy Carronade) vs 60 (Gatling)

As you can see from these numbers (which are pretty accurate by my friend's calculations...others can confirm, I hope), against everything but Armor the Medium guns are superior, whether because of raw damage or (in the case of the Flak vs Mortar tie) because of range.

Assuming these numbers are right (I don't contest them), the Medium weapons are even worse than I thought. Because, you see, unless a gunner has an accuracy around 80% (like everybody on this board, I am sure), most people miss a few shots. Well, a few missed shot on a typical light gun isn't too bad - the rate of fire, large magazine or quicker reload can compensate for that. You can even use the first few shots as tracers.

Largely untrue. Open battlefields and below-average opponents make these weapons easier to use, but skilled opponents or close-quarters fighting just requires a bit more knowledge and ability with those weapons. It doesn't suddenly make them bad.

Largely, but not totally. The lumberjack and heavy flak only arm after some distance (like the Field gun), and if they're mounted on a Spire or Galleon, your adversary chooses the range most of the time.

...A Goldfish is really damn good at blending balloons, boss. A touch of Chute Vent completely negates any advantage the Squid may have in vertical movement to follow the target, and the Heavy Carronade loses basically nothing over the Light Carronade for keeping an opponent pinned or shredding their armor. The greater health and armor allows you to survive more attempts to have someone force you off your target, and also allows you more leeway to actually physically pin your target to the ground. It has different strengths, but it's far from "playing Squid."

Tools are another matter - the Squid pilot can pack a Chute Vent too. I prefer the light carronade to the heavier version, even if it one of the less awkward medium to use; More magazine capacity, more angle, for about the same damage on balloon - it only is less effective against the decks.

Gatlings are terrible at disabling ships compared to a Hwacha: they deal 77 dps to ship components, and their scatter makes it difficult to focus on a single component: it takes over 4 seconds of concentrated fire to take out a single engine. The Hwacha, meanwhile, does 118 dps to ships with a large burst radius. In that 4 seconds you can take out three engines, or all the guns on a Galleon's broadside, or all of a Junker's broadside plus an engine...and so forth. There's no comparing the two for ship disabling.

A Gatling with heavies at short range is a scalpel; I have successfully disarmed all the guns on all types of ship, many times. It is fast, precise, has a large clip and is especially good at busting guns. Engines? I don't know that much, since when a ship's guns are disabled I switch to charged and finish the hull.

When firing a Whacha, even slowly, you do not "cut" like with the heavy-clipped gat; you "spray", even with the heavies, being about as precise as a katana in surgery. And you better do it right the first time, because the reload... man, the reload... Maybe they're better against engines though, even if that, once again, makes them of any use as long as you can direct your ship to the said engines - which again largely excludes 2 out of the three ships who can mount one.

Additionally, a Heavy Clip Hwacha has incredible precision at ranges greater than a gatling's, and can also damage components near the target area. Finally, the Hwacha deals nearly x5 the Gatling's damage to a ship's hull. The only place the gatling wins is in damage to armor.

And at components, too. And besides, a ship without armor is a ship on its way to a shortened career, as often light guns are paired. The Hwachas don't do that much damage; their edge is, they do that damage pretty much everywhere; If your opponent has even an average engineer, he can undo all damage to the hull 'n' balloon while the gunners fix their guns and - oops, you've got to reload. If the oppo is armed with a gat in range, then you'd better get off the gun and prepare yourself to repair. I have faced many Hwachas with my ol' gats, and most of the time I fire before they do, silencing them. Long range? Bah! An average pilot can see the very visible, dispersed shots coming and somehow negate like half of them, the rest being easily repaired while he's positionning the ship by the time you reload, as two third of the ship that mount these guns are slowpokes.

This I'll grant you. A few more options for Heavy Weapons would be rather nice.

Ah. I knew we would agree on something, sooner or later. ;-)
Thanks for your input, bud.

[Alistair MacBain]

See? You dont take the argument of experienced players.

The medium guns are mostly sniper weapons. There is nth comparing with that range and dmg. If you ever see what a hflak can do with a unarmored hull u see how good it is.
A lumberjack takes balloons for breakfasts.
Sure u need good gunners on them. Thats why u barely see them. Or at least used to their real potential.

A good hwacha gunner will take out ur whole ship in one volley.
A hcarro will twoshot ur balloon and kill ur hull rly fast if u hit right with it.


But as u will not take our arguments go ahead and do whatever u want.
Or watch some competetive matches and see what good players can do with heavy guns.

[The Djinn]

Assuming these numbers are right (I don't contest them), the Medium weapons are even worse than I thought. Because, you see, unless a gunner has an accuracy around 80% (like everybody on this board, I am sure), most people miss a few shots. Well, a few missed shot on a typical light gun isn't too bad - the rate of fire, large magazine or quicker reload can compensate for that. You can even use the first few shots as tracers.

Shots miss occasionally, yes. But 80% accuracy is pretty easy on a Heavy Flak within, say, Gatling range. The more important issue is that medium guns take time to fire off a full clip...and a skilled pilot won't just sit and let you empty an entire clip on his ship if he has any recourse. So we can either assume that each gun is functioning under optimal conditions, or that neither is functioning under optimal conditions, in which case you might only get 50-75% of that light gun's clip actually on target (or actually on the portion of the ship you wish to damage).

In my experience though? Good gunners are reliable at putting heavy gun fire on-target. 80% isn't that far off the mark at moderate range.

Largely, but not totally. The lumberjack and heavy flak only arm after some distance (like the Field gun), and if they're mounted on a Spire or Galleon, your adversary chooses the range most of the time.

Yep. And by firing early, aiming for engines, and reversing, you can keep that distance up for quite some time, even on very tight maps like Paritan Rumble.

Tools are another matter - the Squid pilot can pack a Chute Vent too. I prefer the light carronade to the heavier version, even if it one of the less awkward medium to use; More magazine capacity, more angle, for about the same damage on balloon - it only is less effective against the decks.

You may prefer it, yes. Doesn't change the fact that both are exceedingly valid ship loadouts and tactics. The Goldfish is not "Playing Squid." It's using Balloon-pinning tactics as a Goldfish: you can do the same with a Junker if you've got half a mind to do so, or even a Mobula (although that's super risky). All of them work.

A Gatling with heavies at short range is a scalpel; I have successfully disarmed all the guns on all types of ship, many times. It is fast, precise, has a large clip and is especially good at busting guns. Engines? I don't know that much, since when a ship's guns are disabled I switch to charged and finish the hull.

So while you scalpel away I'll tear into your guns and engines with Heavy Clip on a Hwacha at a range you can't match with damn good accuracy, then disable all your components facing me with Burst at close range.

Also, that Gat tactic is alarmingly ineffective, as even with Charged rounds the Gatling has the second worst DPS against the hull in the game. By a pretty huge margin. Use it to shred armor, reload it, and shred their armor again once it's back up. It's a far more effective use of the Gat then the pitiful 13 DPS that Charged rounds do to the perma-Hull.

When firing a Whacha, even slowly, you do not "cut" like with the heavy-clipped gat; you "spray", even with the heavies, being about as precise as a katana in surgery. And you better do it right the first time, because the reload... man, the reload... Maybe they're better against engines though, even if that, once again, makes them of any use as long as you can direct your ship to the said engines - which again largely excludes 2 out of the three ships who can mount one.

The fact that within a 2-3 second window you can strip a ship of most of its guns + engines is well worth the 14 second reload time. Hwachas sow chaos and give you time to get more advantageous positions...and they do it VERY quickly. You then swing guns to bring other weapons into arc while it reloads. You're severely underestimating the power of the weapon as mid-close range disabler: nothing else really compares at that range.

And at components, too.

Beg pardon?

Hwacha DPS to components: 118 + burst to nearby components.
Gatling DPS to components: 77

The Hwacha is the clear winner here.

I have faced many Hwachas with my ol' gats, and most of the time I fire before they do, silencing them. Long range? Bah! An average pilot can see the very visible, dispersed shots coming and somehow negate like half of them, the rest being easily repaired while he's positionning the ship by the time you reload, as two third of the ship that mount these guns are slowpokes.

I would hazard a guess you are not up against decent pilots/gunners then, and they probably aren't running Heavy Clip. A well run Hwacha ship can disable your engines or guns from almost double the Gatling's maximum range, and easily have Burst rounds loaded by the time you close the distance, which gives you a firing window of a few seconds before you lose half of your ship's components.