Info > Feedback and Suggestions

Medium Weapons, Anyone?

<< < (6/10) > >>

Sprayer:
Why call this a discussion? You obviously already made up your mind and are not open to the arguments of more experienced players.

The Djinn:

--- Quote from: Van Manfred on October 23, 2013, 09:01:44 am ---Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too.
--- End quote ---

Assuming we're talking DPS against favorable components, the most effective Heavy Gun against a given component often outdamages the most effective light gun against that component (in terms of Damage-per-Second).

Balloon: 173 (Heavy Carronade) vs. 158 (Light Carronade)
Hull: 158 (Heavy Flak) vs 158 (Mortar)
Guns/Engines: 232 (Lumberjack Heavy Mortar) vs 112 (Mercury Field Gun)
Armor: 48 (Heavy Carronade) vs 60 (Gatling)

As you can see from these numbers (which are pretty accurate by my friend's calculations...others can confirm, I hope), against everything but Armor the Medium guns are superior, whether because of raw damage or (in the case of the Flak vs Mortar tie) because of range.


--- Quote ---I'll admit that the generally longer range of medium weapon makes them deadly in the hands of a great gunner. And with a great pilot at the wheel.
--- End quote ---

Agreed here. Difficult to use weapons are better in the hands of better players. Fact.


--- Quote ---And in a open battlefield. And versus a below-average opponent.
--- End quote ---

Largely untrue. Open battlefields and below-average opponents make these weapons easier to use, but skilled opponents or close-quarters fighting just requires a bit more knowledge and ability with those weapons. It doesn't suddenly make them bad.


--- Quote ---A wise decision. Carronades are at their best when you have a vertical movement advantage over your opponent - to shoot at the balloon, then to get back at the fast-descending target. For this reason, the heavy ones are only usable as a main armement on a Goldfish "playing Squid" (a task at which the Squid, with a lighter carronade, is better).
--- End quote ---

...A Goldfish is really damn good at blending balloons, boss. A touch of Chute Vent completely negates any advantage the Squid may have in vertical movement to follow the target, and the Heavy Carronade loses basically nothing over the Light Carronade for keeping an opponent pinned or shredding their armor. The greater health and armor allows you to survive more attempts to have someone force you off your target, and also allows you more leeway to actually physically pin your target to the ground. It has different strengths, but it's far from "playing Squid."


--- Quote ---Now that's a defensive weaponnery. The Hwachas are good to impose an area of denial, but their lack of precision, loading time and relatively low concentrated damage makes them ill-suited to the finishing role. And yet they're still the best thing to mount on a Galleon, given their ease of use in a hurry, unless you have a clear enough horizon to play bang-bang with two gunners and heavy flak/Lumberjack.

To disable a ship - and to finish it, you must certainly be familiar with the heavy- then charged-clipped Gatling, IMO a much better weapon.
--- End quote ---

Gatlings are terrible at disabling ships compared to a Hwacha: they deal 77 dps to ship components, and their scatter makes it difficult to focus on a single component: it takes over 4 seconds of concentrated fire to take out a single engine. The Hwacha, meanwhile, does 118 dps to ships with a large burst radius. In that 4 seconds you can take out three engines, or all the guns on a Galleon's broadside, or all of a Junker's broadside plus an engine...and so forth. There's no comparing the two for ship disabling.

Additionally, a Heavy Clip Hwacha has incredible precision at ranges greater than a gatling's, and can also damage components near the target area. Finally, the Hwacha deals nearly x5 the Gatling's damage to a ship's hull. The only place the gatling wins is in damage to armor.


--- Quote ---You are right - but they are not an alternative to light weapons. A medium weapon slot cannot accomodate a lighter one. And because of this, I would like having more hoice, more polyvalency out of them. Imagine how the Goldfish and Spires would be good with more choices.

--- End quote ---

This I'll grant you. A few more options for Heavy Weapons would be rather nice.

Van Manfred:

--- Quote from: The Djinn on October 23, 2013, 02:25:45 pm ---
Assuming we're talking DPS against favorable components, the most effective Heavy Gun against a given component often outdamages the most effective light gun against that component (in terms of Damage-per-Second).

Balloon: 173 (Heavy Carronade) vs. 158 (Light Carronade)
Hull: 158 (Heavy Flak) vs 158 (Mortar)
Guns/Engines: 232 (Lumberjack Heavy Mortar) vs 112 (Mercury Field Gun)
Armor: 48 (Heavy Carronade) vs 60 (Gatling)

As you can see from these numbers (which are pretty accurate by my friend's calculations...others can confirm, I hope), against everything but Armor the Medium guns are superior, whether because of raw damage or (in the case of the Flak vs Mortar tie) because of range.
--- End quote ---

Assuming these numbers are right (I don't contest them), the Medium weapons are even worse than I thought. Because, you see, unless a gunner has an accuracy around 80% (like everybody on this board, I am sure), most people miss a few shots. Well, a few missed shot on a typical light gun isn't too bad - the rate of fire, large magazine or quicker reload can compensate for that. You can even use the first few shots as tracers.


--- Quote ---Largely untrue. Open battlefields and below-average opponents make these weapons easier to use, but skilled opponents or close-quarters fighting just requires a bit more knowledge and ability with those weapons. It doesn't suddenly make them bad.
--- End quote ---

Largely, but not totally. The lumberjack and heavy flak only arm after some distance (like the Field gun), and if they're mounted on a Spire or Galleon, your adversary chooses the range most of the time.


--- Quote ---...A Goldfish is really damn good at blending balloons, boss. A touch of Chute Vent completely negates any advantage the Squid may have in vertical movement to follow the target, and the Heavy Carronade loses basically nothing over the Light Carronade for keeping an opponent pinned or shredding their armor. The greater health and armor allows you to survive more attempts to have someone force you off your target, and also allows you more leeway to actually physically pin your target to the ground. It has different strengths, but it's far from "playing Squid."
--- End quote ---

Tools are another matter - the Squid pilot can pack a Chute Vent too. I prefer the light carronade to the heavier version, even if it one of the less awkward medium to use; More magazine capacity, more angle, for about the same damage on balloon - it only is less effective against the decks.


--- Quote ---Gatlings are terrible at disabling ships compared to a Hwacha: they deal 77 dps to ship components, and their scatter makes it difficult to focus on a single component: it takes over 4 seconds of concentrated fire to take out a single engine. The Hwacha, meanwhile, does 118 dps to ships with a large burst radius. In that 4 seconds you can take out three engines, or all the guns on a Galleon's broadside, or all of a Junker's broadside plus an engine...and so forth. There's no comparing the two for ship disabling.
--- End quote ---

A Gatling with heavies at short range is a scalpel; I have successfully disarmed all the guns on all types of ship, many times. It is fast, precise, has a large clip and is especially good at busting guns. Engines? I don't know that much, since when a ship's guns are disabled I switch to charged and finish the hull.

When firing a Whacha, even slowly, you do not "cut" like with the heavy-clipped gat; you "spray", even with the heavies, being about as precise as a katana in surgery. And you better do it right the first time, because the reload... man, the reload... Maybe they're better against engines though, even if that, once again, makes them of any use as long as you can direct your ship to the said engines - which again largely excludes 2 out of the three ships who can mount one.


--- Quote ---Additionally, a Heavy Clip Hwacha has incredible precision at ranges greater than a gatling's, and can also damage components near the target area. Finally, the Hwacha deals nearly x5 the Gatling's damage to a ship's hull. The only place the gatling wins is in damage to armor.
--- End quote ---

And at components, too. And besides, a ship without armor is a ship on its way to a shortened career, as often light guns are paired. The Hwachas don't do that much damage; their edge is, they do that damage pretty much everywhere; If your opponent has even an average engineer, he can undo all damage to the hull 'n' balloon while the gunners fix their guns and - oops, you've got to reload. If the oppo is armed with a gat in range, then you'd better get off the gun and prepare yourself to repair. I have faced many Hwachas with my ol' gats, and most of the time I fire before they do, silencing them. Long range? Bah! An average pilot can see the very visible, dispersed shots coming and somehow negate like half of them, the rest being easily repaired while he's positionning the ship by the time you reload, as two third of the ship that mount these guns are slowpokes.


--- Quote ---This I'll grant you. A few more options for Heavy Weapons would be rather nice.

--- End quote ---

Ah. I knew we would agree on something, sooner or later. ;-)
Thanks for your input, bud.

Alistair MacBain:
See? You dont take the argument of experienced players.

The medium guns are mostly sniper weapons. There is nth comparing with that range and dmg. If you ever see what a hflak can do with a unarmored hull u see how good it is.
A lumberjack takes balloons for breakfasts.
Sure u need good gunners on them. Thats why u barely see them. Or at least used to their real potential.

A good hwacha gunner will take out ur whole ship in one volley.
A hcarro will twoshot ur balloon and kill ur hull rly fast if u hit right with it.


But as u will not take our arguments go ahead and do whatever u want.
Or watch some competetive matches and see what good players can do with heavy guns.

The Djinn:

--- Quote from: Van Manfred on October 23, 2013, 03:52:01 pm ---Assuming these numbers are right (I don't contest them), the Medium weapons are even worse than I thought. Because, you see, unless a gunner has an accuracy around 80% (like everybody on this board, I am sure), most people miss a few shots. Well, a few missed shot on a typical light gun isn't too bad - the rate of fire, large magazine or quicker reload can compensate for that. You can even use the first few shots as tracers.
--- End quote ---

Shots miss occasionally, yes. But 80% accuracy is pretty easy on a Heavy Flak within, say, Gatling range. The more important issue is that medium guns take time to fire off a full clip...and a skilled pilot won't just sit and let you empty an entire clip on his ship if he has any recourse. So we can either assume that each gun is functioning under optimal conditions, or that neither is functioning under optimal conditions, in which case you might only get 50-75% of that light gun's clip actually on target (or actually on the portion of the ship you wish to damage).

In my experience though? Good gunners are reliable at putting heavy gun fire on-target. 80% isn't that far off the mark at moderate range.


--- Quote ---Largely, but not totally. The lumberjack and heavy flak only arm after some distance (like the Field gun), and if they're mounted on a Spire or Galleon, your adversary chooses the range most of the time.
--- End quote ---

Yep. And by firing early, aiming for engines, and reversing, you can keep that distance up for quite some time, even on very tight maps like Paritan Rumble.


--- Quote ---Tools are another matter - the Squid pilot can pack a Chute Vent too. I prefer the light carronade to the heavier version, even if it one of the less awkward medium to use; More magazine capacity, more angle, for about the same damage on balloon - it only is less effective against the decks.
--- End quote ---

You may prefer it, yes. Doesn't change the fact that both are exceedingly valid ship loadouts and tactics. The Goldfish is not "Playing Squid." It's using Balloon-pinning tactics as a Goldfish: you can do the same with a Junker if you've got half a mind to do so, or even a Mobula (although that's super risky). All of them work.


--- Quote ---A Gatling with heavies at short range is a scalpel; I have successfully disarmed all the guns on all types of ship, many times. It is fast, precise, has a large clip and is especially good at busting guns. Engines? I don't know that much, since when a ship's guns are disabled I switch to charged and finish the hull.
--- End quote ---

So while you scalpel away I'll tear into your guns and engines with Heavy Clip on a Hwacha at a range you can't match with damn good accuracy, then disable all your components facing me with Burst at close range.

Also, that Gat tactic is alarmingly ineffective, as even with Charged rounds the Gatling has the second worst DPS against the hull in the game. By a pretty huge margin. Use it to shred armor, reload it, and shred their armor again once it's back up. It's a far more effective use of the Gat then the pitiful 13 DPS that Charged rounds do to the perma-Hull.


--- Quote ---When firing a Whacha, even slowly, you do not "cut" like with the heavy-clipped gat; you "spray", even with the heavies, being about as precise as a katana in surgery. And you better do it right the first time, because the reload... man, the reload... Maybe they're better against engines though, even if that, once again, makes them of any use as long as you can direct your ship to the said engines - which again largely excludes 2 out of the three ships who can mount one.
--- End quote ---

The fact that within a 2-3 second window you can strip a ship of most of its guns + engines is well worth the 14 second reload time. Hwachas sow chaos and give you time to get more advantageous positions...and they do it VERY quickly. You then swing guns to bring other weapons into arc while it reloads. You're severely underestimating the power of the weapon as mid-close range disabler: nothing else really compares at that range.


--- Quote ---And at components, too.
--- End quote ---

Beg pardon?

Hwacha DPS to components: 118 + burst to nearby components.
Gatling DPS to components: 77

The Hwacha is the clear winner here.


--- Quote ---I have faced many Hwachas with my ol' gats, and most of the time I fire before they do, silencing them. Long range? Bah! An average pilot can see the very visible, dispersed shots coming and somehow negate like half of them, the rest being easily repaired while he's positionning the ship by the time you reload, as two third of the ship that mount these guns are slowpokes.
--- End quote ---

I would hazard a guess you are not up against decent pilots/gunners then, and they probably aren't running Heavy Clip. A well run Hwacha ship can disable your engines or guns from almost double the Gatling's maximum range, and easily have Burst rounds loaded by the time you close the distance, which gives you a firing window of a few seconds before you lose half of your ship's components.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page