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Medium Weapons, Anyone?
Echoez:
--- Quote from: The Djinn on October 19, 2013, 03:23:37 pm ---I can sort of understand that though...if you have a heavy auto-cannon with good armor shredding or a really strong brawling weapon, the Galleon suddenly becomes a complete beast, as it's able to just kill you quickly with any side.
It also makes heavy gun tag-teams WAY to powerful: imagine a faster-than-gatling armor shred on a Auto-Cannon fish, while a Lochnager Flak Fish flies alongside him.
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A brawling Galleon will never be a problem in my eyes as long as the Lumberjack exists and that ship itself is as slow as it is now simply enough cause it's too easy to counter and keep out of its gun arcs. There is a reason that ship ain't that good at brawling even with the current Uber-carronade of blending doom side that we've seen used in Flotsam, it's lack of agility is very easily taken advantage of, plus an Auto-cannon would require aimming and leading, wouldn't be hit scan, as long as it isn't way better than the old Gatling in 1.2 I don't see a problem with it and would make for a good weapon both aestheticaly as well as challenging to fire on the move.
Flakfish would still be horrible cause it's not a self suffiecient ship and has 0 utility.
A Heavy Flamerthrower of kinds or even a Napalm gun would add to the brawling arsenal of heavy guns with lots of utility and a sort of jack of all trades but master of none, could also have an interesting mechanic, utilizing liquid gasoline so you have an arc'ed stream of fire to aim with istead of the gas based light flamer.
These are guns that could be utilized on all heavy gun ships and provide some much needed variety, honestly after than 900th Sniper Galleon I have seen, even a "Gat/Flak" Galleon would be a welcome change.
Or even lightning based tesla gun, they even have models ready for these that are not used.
It's not my game to make, but there's so much that could be done and isn't being done, the arsenal of heavy guns is left lacking and I'm honestly already burnt out of the current guns as a guy that likes flying the ships that equip them.
Van Manfred:
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 19, 2013, 03:46:13 pm ---A Heavy Flamerthrower of kinds or even a Napalm gun would add to the brawling arsenal of heavy guns with lots of utility and a sort of jack of all trades but master of none, could also have an interesting mechanic, utilizing liquid gasoline so you have an arc'ed stream of fire to aim with istead of the gas based light flamer.
(...) Or even lightning based tesla gun, they even have models ready for these that are not used.
--- End quote ---
Terrific ideas.
+1
Sprayer:
--- Quote from: Van Manfred on October 19, 2013, 08:58:50 am ---
--- Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 19, 2013, 02:02:14 am ---The medium flak is so much more powerful than the light flak. A buffed charged shot from a heavy flak one shots a pyramidion. You need every last shot of a buffed light flak to make a pyra kill.
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But not a Pyramidion with a buffed hull. Or any other kind of ship, excepting maybe an ill-crewed Spire. The perfect conditions you wrote usually only happen as the result of an ambush at startgame. Buff and load the little Flak the same way, in the same conditions, and you'll have similar results (it packs quite a punch too), as you wrote.
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Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.
Specific condition for Lumberjack? A gunner who has some experience with it and you can effectively use it at 1000m, a gunner who regularly uses it and you can effectively use it on up to 2000m. Other than that, the enemy has to stay further away than 176m or 165m (Greased/Heatsink or Incendiary) which, considering the nature of the gun, shouldn't be a problem as long as the pilot is able enough to point his broadside at the enemy before the enemy is already on the approach for the ram. Only the Mercury and Typhoon have comparable ranged effectiveness, the Mercury does not strips hulls even half as fast as the LJ, the Typhoon is a Medium weapon.
Heavy Carronade needs two shots to take down bloons, as long as the bloon is not clapped with a mallet in between those shots. If the Carro is buffed, even the clap won't help the victim. It also has greater range than the light carronade. The light carronade might still be better though, comparing the goldfish with heavy carro to pyramidion, the pyra would have two light carros which would take as long to pop bloons as one heavy one and deal some damage to armor on top. comparing the blenderfish to squid, the squid can way more easily stay out of gunarcs of enemy ships whilst getting its front gun to shoot the enemy quicker.
The use of the Hellhound on the Spire is... arguable to say the least.
The Hellhound on the galleon would only be compareable to Barking Dog on Junker I assume.... but I won't dare to do that comparison here.
Manticore: Disable entire ships in about two seconds is useless? That is a powerful ability in my opinion. Coordinate with teammate to use the time in which one enemy is entirely helpless. (for example, goldfish disables one enemy, then uses sidemounted gatling to help strip the other enemy whilst the captain on the first ship can't do anything but look)
I give you that, the medium weapons don't excel among all the weapons in the game. Don't think of the weapon categories as Medium>Light, think of them as equals with different uses. After all, you don't compare all explosive weapons to all piercing weapons either.
Van Manfred:
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 21, 2013, 10:06:06 am ---Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.
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Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too.
--- Quote ---Specific condition for Lumberjack? A gunner who has some experience with it and you can effectively use it at 1000m, a gunner who regularly uses it and you can effectively use it on up to 2000m. Other than that, the enemy has to stay further away than 176m or 165m (Greased/Heatsink or Incendiary) which, considering the nature of the gun, shouldn't be a problem as long as the pilot is able enough to point his broadside at the enemy before the enemy is already on the approach for the ram. Only the Mercury and Typhoon have comparable ranged effectiveness, the Mercury does not strips hulls even half as fast as the LJ, the Typhoon is a Medium weapon.
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I'll admit that the generally longer range of medium weapon makes them deadly in the hands of a great gunner. And with a great pilot at the wheel. And in a open battlefield. And versus a below-average opponent.
--- Quote ---Heavy Carronade needs two shots to take down bloons, as long as the bloon is not clapped with a mallet in between those shots. If the Carro is buffed, even the clap won't help the victim. It also has greater range than the light carronade. The light carronade might still be better though, comparing the goldfish with heavy carro to pyramidion, the pyra would have two light carros which would take as long to pop bloons as one heavy one and deal some damage to armor on top. comparing the blenderfish to squid, the squid can way more easily stay out of gunarcs of enemy ships whilst getting its front gun to shoot the enemy quicker.
The use of the Hellhound on the Spire is... arguable to say the least.
The Hellhound on the galleon would only be compareable to Barking Dog on Junker I assume.... but I won't dare to do that comparison here.
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A wise decision. Carronades are at their best when you have a vertical movement advantage over your opponent - to shoot at the balloon, then to get back at the fast-descending target. For this reason, the heavy ones are only usable as a main armement on a Goldfish "playing Squid" (a task at which the Squid, with a lighter carronade, is better). I agree that carronades usually suck as a defensive armement on the slower vessels.
--- Quote ---Manticore: Disable entire ships in about two seconds is useless? That is a powerful ability in my opinion. Coordinate with teammate to use the time in which one enemy is entirely helpless. (for example, goldfish disables one enemy, then uses sidemounted gatling to help strip the other enemy whilst the captain on the first ship can't do anything but look)
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Now that's a defensive weaponnery. The Hwachas are good to impose an area of denial, but their lack of precision, loading time and relatively low concentrated damage makes them ill-suited to the finishing role. And yet they're still the best thing to mount on a Galleon, given their ease of use in a hurry, unless you have a clear enough horizon to play bang-bang with two gunners and heavy flak/Lumberjack.
To disable a ship - and to finish it, you must certainly be familiar with the heavy- then charged-clipped Gatling, IMO a much better weapon.
--- Quote ---I give you that, the medium weapons don't excel among all the weapons in the game. Don't think of the weapon categories as Medium>Light, think of them as equals with different uses. After all, you don't compare all explosive weapons to all piercing weapons either.
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You are right - but they are not an alternative to light weapons. A medium weapon slot cannot accomodate a lighter one. And because of this, I would like having more hoice, more polyvalency out of them. Imagine how the Goldfish and Spires would be good with more choices.
Captain Smollett:
--- Quote from: Van Manfred on October 23, 2013, 09:01:44 am ---
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 21, 2013, 10:06:06 am ---Buffed hull makes no difference how much damage needs to be done to the permahull to destroy a ship to my knowledge.
The Buffed Charged Flak also oneshots Mobula, Spire and Junker (last one even with only either buff or charged).
A Lochnager Flak oneshots all ships but Galleon and Goldfish, if it is also buffed, it even oneshots Goldfish.
--- End quote ---
Yeah. Well, "one-shot" is a misnommer. The real gold is DPS (reload included), or time needed to kill. And in terms of DPS, a light weapon generally does as much damage as a medium one (if not more) in a given amount of time - except that a missed shot costs a lot more on a medium. Sure, they're more spectacular too
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Again this is incorrect. I have a carefully curated spreadsheet containing the dps for every weapon in the game and there is no light weapon that outshines its heavy variant in dps.
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