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The Spire.
treseritops:
So the math suggestion got buried and I'm just now getting around to crunching for everyone's reference. Please feel free to make corrections as needed.
Spire hull armor- 500/10dmg=50 shots of gatling. 50/5shots per second=10seconds to take down armor.
hull health- 750/90dmg=9 shots of mortar. 9/1.82shots per second=5sec to finish off the hull. (not sure about the primary and secondary damage and how to count it).
Point is under ideal conditions the spire needs to kill a ship in under 15 seconds.
The two most common and most difficult ships for a Spire to kill would be Pyra (everyone flies it) and Goldfish which has the most total hull of a commonly flown ship (1500).
It takes a Spire 8 seconds to take out a goldfishes armor. (400/10=40/5=8sec) and then another 7-8 to bring the hull down. (1100/90=13/1.82=7.14sec)
For pyra it gets messy. It take 65 shots to take down the hull armor. That's a minimum of the full 12sec of the magazine, a 4-5sec reload, and then one more sec of firing for a grand total of 17secs. Add in the 4.4secs to bring the hull down and you get a whopping 21.4 seconds to kill a pyra vs the 15 to kill a spire. The spire has been dead for 2seconds before it can even get the hull down on a pyra.
All these numbers assume no gunner misses a shot, and no engineer repairs but its better for crunching.
treseritops:
I purposefully kept this separate so that I didn't write a whole essay but the focus of the spire's cannon needs to be on piercing. The lousy arcs and limited amount of loadout choices dictate the way a spire can behave.
If we change anything it needs to be focused on bringing the engagement time to a shorter end. Down to killing in 15 seconds or less. Double gatling gun, or change the arc of the gun mounts so that a hades can double up, that's all up for debate but at least we have a benchmark.
Captain Smollett:
Just a quick correction, your math left out damage modifiers. Actual "ideal" engagement lengths where all shots hit and are timed perfectly are actually shorter.
Still, the health disadvantage of the spire is nonetheless the same and easily verifiable anecdotally even without precise math. The solution is to give it enough dps to compensate.
Gotta have more cannon
Gambrill:
Thats if you are using the spire as a close range ship, Changing it to a long range ship completely adds new differentials to this equation.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: treseritops on October 11, 2013, 12:53:26 am ----snip-
--- End quote ---
Just a correction, I know your mentioned something about it, but here's how it works.
The Gatling deals 17 damage per shot to armor, not 10, because you have to apply both damage types and their respective damage modifiers, piercing on armor is 1.5 and shatter on armor is 0.2
so the Gatling that has 10 piercing and 10 shatter deals 15 piercing and 2 shatter on the armor, for a total of 17.
Of course your theory implies both ships start firing at each other at the same time and nobody misses a shot, but this is exactly why I think that close range builds on a Spire doesn't work, as a Spire, you absolutely NEED to get the first shots in, else you will die to any proper ship, and since nobody is perfect, shots will be missed and then it's when you are royal screwed over.
--- Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 11, 2013, 01:19:23 am ---Just a quick correction, your math left out damage modifiers. Actual "ideal" engagement lengths where all shots hit and are timed perfectly are actually shorter.
Still, the health disadvantage of the spire is nonetheless the same and easily verifiable anecdotally even without precise math. The solution is to give it enough dps to compensate.
Gotta have more cannon
--- End quote ---
Honestly Smollett I agree with you on the Mid range thing, it honestly feels that the Spire should be a mid range ship and I can feel it while playing it as well, you have the power to close in and make shots easier for your gunners, but the problem still lies in the fact that the moment you get in mid range, it's also easier for them to shoot back and you can't take those hits as well as they can take yours.
So which will it be? More cannon and leave 70% of your engages with critical damage or dead, or more health with the current cannon, which will be balanced out by the added health to give the ship more durability in a mid range situation?
I've had a discussion about this with one of my clan mates last night to be honest.
So, why did I make this thread in the first place? Because I honestly think that Muse can't get away with just giving the Spire 100 more health and call it a day.
But as someone said to me last night: "True, but the entire nature of the thread is hilarious, as like all Gameplay forum threads, it devolves into rant and counter-rant based around one-upmanship. Ultimately achieving nothing, and only adding noise. Everyone revisits grey-area arguments." (I won't give out a name for privacy reasons, but I think that what was said is true.)
Now ask yourselves, will this ship ever truly be a Glass cannon while the Galleon is in the game? Nothing has more firepower than that ship so please let's stop using that term, the Spire is not a Glass cannon, it's just glass at this point and it will never be a Glass cannon cause it will NEVER have more firepower than a Galleon. Point.
It's out-gunned and out tanked but almost all ships in the game and it's ALWAYS the weakest link in a team setup, which is why it's never used 95% of the time. Why take a weak link while ANY other ship can fill that spot withouth giving the enemy a clear primary target that can easily fall to dust? Not only is it the weakest link, it's also slow and can't dodge to save its life and has no armor to speak of what so ever and it's guns are easily taken out, effectively crippling its firepower very easily.
So what about those things? Why is everyone overlooking these? Does everyone in here think that it's perfectly okay for that ship to stay as is with minimum changes?
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