GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1

[Echoez]

I'll be honest about this: you need a better hwacha gunner. All it takes is sweeping the fire around to land hits on multiple components.

Pretty much, unless it's a Pyra, then the guns are impossible to hit

Jk, but still, that is the only ship that is ridiculously hard to disable, which is a bad thing that the Hwacha can't do it reliably IMO, still, some spread back on Heavy clip wouldn't hurt.

[RearAdmiralZill]

some spread back on Heavy clip wouldn't hurt.

Heavy carronade would have some words on that.

[Echoez]

some spread back on Heavy clip wouldn't hurt.

Heavy carronade would have some words on that.

The Heavy carronade was perfectly accurate in 1.2 when Heavy was at 80% accuracy and not 100%, so I don't see what you are saying? I'm talking about an 90% reduction in recoil instead of 100%, that is all, the carronade wouldn't be affected at all.

I used the gun extensively in 1.2 and it was perfectly fine even without the laser-like accuracy.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well, I can make much more use of the carronade's shatter damage with no spread.

Beyond that large bonus I can see your point. However, you aren't going to convince me heavy needs some spread so you can more accurately hit things.

[Nidh]

This thread is for guns and their balance right? Just, my previous gunner BADFOOT was an ace with the Hwacha, and still is, but when the heavy clip change came around, far too many times a barrage would hit and not disable anything. My gunner's skill is not the problem. Mr. Lambert was hardly disabling anything at mid-range either, though he was hitting with it. The Galleon doesn't care if anything get disabled or not, but the Goldfish sure as heck does.

[Echoez]

Well, I can make much more use of the carronade's shatter damage with no spread.

Beyond that large bonus I can see your point.

Man what are you trying to disable with that carronade?.. Light guns? That's the only thing that requires perfect laser like accuracy to disable with that gun..

[Captain Smollett]

This thread is for guns and their balance right? Just, my previous gunner BADFOOT was an ace with the Hwacha, and still is, but when the heavy clip change came around, far too many times a barrage would hit and not disable anything. My gunner's skill is not the problem. Mr. Lambert was hardly disabling anything at mid-range either, though he was hitting with it. The Galleon doesn't care if anything get disabled or not, but the Goldfish sure as heck does.

A goldfish can control it's engagement range.  Hold fire until you're gunner is at a range they can comfortably disable in.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Damaging also reduces effectiveness of components, and forces repairs, thus lowering dps. It doesn't have to outright kill everything to be considered a good Hwacha barrage, especially at range.

Now, yes, you have to be more targeted with your barrage in order to take out specific components. I mean, hitting the side of a ship isn't going to take out the engines. If anything, adding spread will make your disable issues worse at range as you spread your damage. Then you really won't see any disables. Heavy clip its a very precise thing in a Hwacha, which is kinda funny given it's random nature.

I also think that if you are trying to use a hwacha fish at long range, you're doing it wrong.

(At no point is "you" targeted at any one person.)

Well, I can make much more use of the carronade's shatter damage with no spread.

Beyond that large bonus I can see your point.

Man what are you trying to disable with that carronade?.. Light guns? That's the only thing that requires perfect laser like accuracy to disable with that gun..

I've just notice more disables after the change. I'm giving my perspective purely from a pilot's point of view.

[Echoez]

I also think that if you are trying to use a hwacha fish at long range, you're doing it wrong.

(At no point is "you" targeted at any one person.)

Excuse me? This gun has a pretty long range, it's imperative that you use it at that range as you approach, that's the whole freaking point of getting it on a Goldfish, especially against a Galleon where you need to disable it from as far as possible. I think my gunner proved it pretty well during the Saturday Flotsam event, doesn't even have to be a Galleon, could be an incoming Pyra, a Junker witha broadside on you and even a Spire or an other Goldfish.

Nidh is actually right about it, the Galleon realy doesn't care if a Hwacha shot doesn't disable much, but it's much worse on a Goldfish where you have no other guns pointing at the same enemy.

I've just notice more disables after the change. I'm giving my perspective purely from a pilot's point of view.

Eh fair enough, though I didn't notice that much of a change in my time flying it, but I can't say anything about that specificaly.

[Nidh]

From gatling range it is still very hard to disable reliably. If within gatling range, holding fire is no longer an option or myself or my ally are dead. You think I'd be upset about this for nothing? I had been flying Hwachafish for so long, and if it was still "fine" you think I'd be complaining about it? Echoez agrees with me, and he's probably been flying Goldfish longer than I have. I think we have enough experience to say the the hwachafish has taken a big hit and could use some help.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Excuse me? This gun has a pretty long range, it's imperative that you use it at that range as you approach, that's the whole freaking point of getting it on a Goldfish, especially against a Galleon where you need to disable it from as far as possible. I think my gunner proved it pretty well during the Saturday Flotsam event, doesn't even have to be a Galleon, could be an incoming Pyra, a Junker witha broadside on you and even a Spire or an other Goldfish.

Just because a gun has x max range does not mean you will get full effectiveness at that range, nor should you. While yes, you can use it on approach, you're in a goldfish. Use that speed. One good hit will damage what you were aiming for, and let you close, because a Hwacha is firmly a med/short range gun when you want its absolute max effect. I base that on shooting vanilla rounds and seeing what range a gun does its most damage, be it through disables or straight kill power. So yes, using a hwacha fish at 1.2km out (Hwacha max range) is not going to yield the same results as at medium/short range.

From gatling range it is still very hard to disable reliably. If within gatling range, holding fire is no longer an option or myself or my ally are dead. You think I'd be upset about this for nothing? I had been flying Hwachafish for so long, and if it was still "fine" you think I'd be complaining about it? Echoez agrees with me, and he's probably been flying Goldfish longer than I have. I think we have enough experience to say the the hwachafish has taken a big hit and could use some help.

Then we are having different experiences. Don't take my perspectives personally, as that is not my intent. While you and echo do have experience, so do me and Smollett, and it is my view that the Hwacha is doing as it should.

[Nidh]

Pffbtbtbt. As much as I hate being wrong. I did some testing, and the Hwacha, *sigh* still has potential. It's still harder to use mind you, but I suppose it's not as bad as I had originally thought. I hate you guys. Though I will still say, if it could get some love it would be very much appreciated, but I won't push that it's absolutely necessary.

[Echoez]

Just because a gun has x max range does not mean you will get full effectiveness at that range, nor should you. While yes, you can use it on approach, you're in a goldfish. Use that speed. One good hit will damage what you were aiming for, and let you close, because a Hwacha is firmly a med/short range gun when you want its absolute max effect. I base that on shooting vanilla rounds and seeing what range a gun does its most damage, be it through disables or straight kill power. So yes, using a hwacha fish at 1.2km out (Hwacha max range) is not going to yield the same results as at medium/short range.

Well I didn't say you will use it at 1.2 km all the time nor that you shouldn't close in. Sure the long range shot should not yield the same results as a medium/close range shot with Burst rounds, but right now, unless the enemy is a Galleon you risk yielding no results at all even if you land most shots, which is why I'm even here discussing it, this shouldn't be a thing.

Then we are having different experiences. Don't take my perspectives personally, as that is not my intent. While you and echo do have experience, so do me and Smollett, and it is my view that the Hwacha is doing as it should.

I respect that and I realy don't want to think that my opinion counts more than yours just because I fly the Goldfish most of the time, because it realy doesn't, but you have to understand that the gun does have some issues, or well, a certain ammo type is creating them, else we wouldn't be here talking about it.

I honestly think the problem is not with the gun itself though, rather than the fact that Heavy clip has no spread, which makes it incredibly hard to disable certain ships for no good reason since it was perfectly fine before.

Once again, Heavy clip is my problem if anything and as I noted beforehand, it's not something extremely game breaking, but it hurts this certain ship and loadout while it didn't before.

Though I will still say, if it could get some love it would be very much appreciated, but I won't push that it's absolutely necessary.

There.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Quote from: Nidh on Today at 11:20:02 am

Though I will still say, if it could get some love it would be very much appreciated, but I won't push that it's absolutely necessary.




There.

Indeed. I love buffs to guns that I feel already do well (who wouldn't). I don't think adding spread (even that 10%) would make anything more potent on a hwacha, especially with the reduced ammo. You might hit more when your aim is off, but it's effect will be reduced.

Nice chat guys.

[Echoez]

I don't think adding spread (even that 10%) would make anything more potent on a hwacha, especially with the reduced ammo. You might hit more when your aim is off, but it's effect will be reduced.

It's not about my aim being off but more about how small the hitbox of light guns is, hence, having a small spread within a small circle has way more chances of hitting said tiny hitbox rather than a straight line which will waste a lot of shots on nothing, 90% recoil reduction would still be extremely accurate but would allow that minimal spread for an easier time disabling light guns, which I think would be a good bonus since the primary reason this gun is used is disabling and especially on ships like the Goldfish where your front gun defines your role, I think it's important to note.

At least that's my reasoning behind it.

Other than that, thanks for the chat as well.