Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

[Swizy]

That's about what I was thinking. In adition you could kick useless ai gunner from your ship. However if I remember right this wasn't as well recieved as I wished it to be. Maybe once it gets more feedback we can bringbthisnupnagain. But for now I'd say the wrong class joining isn't as bignofna deal in my experience. And I do play many random games.

[Eukari]

QKO, I can't disagree with you more. "Casual" and "Hardcore" is pretty much the worst possible way to divide players, and it sets up a situation where were are actively discriminating against people simply because they don't play "the right way." (i.e., exactly how I think they should be playing) The last thing a game with a small base should be doing is saying that some players are more equal than others.

I do understand your frustration, and I'm not suggesting that we do nothing about it. You've mentioned before that you don't want GoIO to turn into another DoTA or LoL. That's fine; I have no interest in either of those games, largely because I know how awful their players are. But you know something else? The number one way to end up like that is punishing players because they are new. DoTA's players aren't terrible because they're bad, they're terrible because they take the game way too seriously. Fixing the issue of annoying players is a lot more complicated than just hitting them something whenever they misbehave, and not matter what you'll never fully solve the problem. I'm sorry, but this is a Sisyphean task you've set for yourself.

And as to "hardcore" gamers having more fun? That is 100% bull****. How much fun a person has with a game has to with the individual person, their taste in games and they way they choose to play. Saying someone isn't having as much fun because they don't play the game like you think they should...that's the kind of elitist attitude that pervades games like DoTA. We should be welcoming different people and different ways of looking at the game, not looking down our noses at the stupid "casuals."

[Echoez]

QKO, I can't disagree with you more. "Casual" and "Hardcore" is pretty much the worst possible way to divide players, and it sets up a situation where were are actively discriminating against people simply because they don't play "the right way." (i.e., exactly how I think they should be playing) The last thing a game with a small base should be doing is saying that some players are more equal than others.

I do understand your frustration, and I'm not suggesting that we do nothing about it. You've mentioned before that you don't want GoIO to turn into another DoTA or LoL. That's fine; I have no interest in either of those games, largely because I know how awful their players are. But you know something else? The number one way to end up like that is punishing players because they are new. DoTA's players aren't terrible because they're bad, they're terrible because they take the game way too seriously. Fixing the issue of annoying players is a lot more complicated than just hitting them something whenever they misbehave, and not matter what you'll never fully solve the problem. I'm sorry, but this is a Sisyphean task you've set for yourself.

And as to "hardcore" gamers having more fun? That is 100% bull****. How much fun a person has with a game has to with the individual person, their taste in games and they way they choose to play. Saying someone isn't having as much fun because they don't play the game like you think they should...that's the kind of elitist attitude that pervades games like DoTA. We should be welcoming different people and different ways of looking at the game, not looking down our noses at the stupid "casuals."

My salute button is broken, I kept clicking.

[Commodore Phoenix]

Eukari I don't think you understand what QKO means by "casual" and "Hardcore" gamers in this game. We have all types of players in what we call "hardcore", Clans, Artists, Commentators or just really good players who are involved in the game. You don't have to be an elitist to see that there is a strong divide between players. You have players who play once a week but they post on the forums regularly in my opinion this is a "Hardcore" Guns of Icarus player or a player like me who has played about 830 hours on this game and is one of the few people who aren't in a clan simply because I want to enjoy the game but at the same time do it with some sort of skill based game-play, who also speaks to the devs about game bugs and so forth, this I would also consider a "Hardcore" gamer. Basically what QKO was saying is the more you give a damn about this game and how it runs the more of a "Hardcore" gamer you are.

Disclaimer: any and all references are strictly based to this game I am not referring to hardcore or casuals from other games.

[QKO]

QKO, I can't disagree with you more. "Casual" and "Hardcore" is pretty much the worst possible way to divide players, and it sets up a situation where were are actively discriminating against people simply because they don't play "the right way." (i.e., exactly how I think they should be playing) The last thing a game with a small base should be doing is saying that some players are more equal than others.

The division will be made regardless of whether we like it or not. At some point players will say enough is enough and they will confine themselves to a group they can trust. That is how inhouses are born. And while inhouses are not meant to affect the community in any bad way, it will mean that players who wish to get into this game will have a much harder time. Hence it is more sensible to have this division done by the game(properly done by the game) voiding the necessity of inhouses and thus all players who wish to enjoy the game to its fullest enter the same pool. I'm not saying we need to implement any "I'm better than you" stats, just a way for the game to seperate "Ooooh, what does THIS button do?" from "I try to win". And when players freshly enter the more hardcore pool, the preexisting pool can vote over several matches on whether the new player should stay in that pool or not. And if not, they are relegated to the 'casual' pool for a while before they can try again.

I do understand your frustration, and I'm not suggesting that we do nothing about it. You've mentioned before that you don't want GoIO to turn into another DoTA or LoL. That's fine; I have no interest in either of those games, largely because I know how awful their players are. But you know something else? The number one way to end up like that is punishing players because they are new. DoTA's players aren't terrible because they're bad, they're terrible because they take the game way too seriously. Fixing the issue of annoying players is a lot more complicated than just hitting them something whenever they misbehave, and not matter what you'll never fully solve the problem. I'm sorry, but this is a Sisyphean task you've set for yourself.

Misbehavior in games like LoL and DotA happen due to the lack of power players have. There is no leader, the role has to be assumed by someone and he can pray that others listen. The reporting systems are complete shit and easily abused by trolls. And developers there have done NOTHING to separate casuals from hardcore players which means that it is common to have 1 or 2 feeders on your team that do everything wrong and claim to 'play for fun'. And because there's a leaver protection system in place there, people are losing HOURS over these kind of players. That is their frustration, it's not that these players are bad or evil, they are frustrated as hell and they have a really short fuse because of it. I have been there, I have seen it happen; everyone that has played with me knows I'm quick to lash out and the afore mentioned games are the cause of that.

And as to "hardcore" gamers having more fun? That is 100% bull****. How much fun a person has with a game has to with the individual person, their taste in games and they way they choose to play. Saying someone isn't having as much fun because they don't play the game like you think they should...that's the kind of elitist attitude that pervades games like DoTA. We should be welcoming different people and different ways of looking at the game, not looking down our noses at the stupid "casuals."

So you expect to play Chess for a full year without learning the rules or learning from your mistakes and expect to have the same amount of fun of someone who does the same but does learn? You are really mistaken about this. And I don't know what other bullshit comes after that, but I've not mentioned any form of elitist behavior in the post you respond to. I even mentioned that the mindset of 'I know things better than you' is detrimental to a player's performance. So what is your argument?

[Mr. Ace Rimmer]

The division will be made regardless of whether we like it or not. At some point players will say enough is enough and they will confine themselves to a group they can trust. That is how inhouses are born. And while inhouses are not meant to affect the community in any bad way, it will mean that players who wish to get into this game will have a much harder time. Hence it is more sensible to have this division done by the game(properly done by the game) voiding the necessity of inhouses and thus all players who wish to enjoy the game to its fullest enter the same pool. I'm not saying we need to implement any "I'm better than you" stats, just a way for the game to seperate "Ooooh, what does THIS button do?" from "I try to win". And when players freshly enter the more hardcore pool, the preexisting pool can vote over several matches on whether the new player should stay in that pool or not. And if not, they are relegated to the 'casual' pool for a while before they can try again.

No, just no. Giving the player base control over that puts to much trust in people. A person can be nice, people are sheep and tend to have a pack mentality. If that person trying to move up from the 'casual' pool were to make a few small mistakes, chances are some (and I mean some, Merry men did a great job Saturday past of demonstrating the comradeship and sportsmanship in this games player base) players might vote them down as not good (elite) enough to play with. A system such as you suggest will inevitably end up with a two (or even 3 including beginners matches)  tiered system which divides the player base permanently. The more people who join GoIO and stay with us, the higher the chance of a split player base happening. As far as i am concerned, no one player or group of players should have the right to limit who can play with who. If we want dedicated games against opponents who we know are skilled and with players we know are skilled don't we already have the clan system and the esports centered around that?

In my eyes, the best way to prevent the split is to keep playing the pubs. Sure there will be the occasional bad egg but I'm sure the vast majority of the casual player base are trying to learn the game. Is it not our duty to assist those players rather than isolate them for mistakes we all would have made at some point? (and some of us still do!)

[Zenark]

I would consider myself a 'hardcore' player, even if I don't try that hard in tournaments. I honestly enjoy pub matches over competitive ones simply because everyone is trying to have fun with the goal of winning as a nice bonus, rather than people raging because I'm not 'playing seriously'. I'd say the game is already starting to separate as the competitive-only clans start to grow. I'm not a low level, I'm even in a clan, but I'd probably join the 'casual' gamers because I find the game as more of a chore or job when winning is the goal rather than having fun.

If you want to segregate, join a clan and only play with other competitive players. Don't segregate the community because some of us like to be silly and don't take the game as seriously as you.

[Eukari]

QKO, the best I can recommend is that you join a competitive focused clan and try to only play with them/other clans. You are never going to avoid "casual" players otherwise. Attempting to split the player base into two group on purpose is something Muse will never do, because it's bad for business. I don't think you're correct in assuming the separation will be done naturally.

I can tell you care a lot about the game and are worried that it will fill up with annoying people who make it no fun to play, but discriminating against new people/those who don't have the time to master every little nuance is not the way to keep things from going downhill. The best we can do is continue to try and teach those who don't know what their doing and show them how fun working as a team really is. I have yet to meet a person in GoIO who reacted badly to a little advice; heavens know I certainly could still use it often.

[Zenark]

Hell yeah, advice is always good. I remember when I first started, no one taught me a damn thing. I had to learn how to play through trial and error. I'm sure a lot of these new players are having to go through the same thing, but I'm also sure that a lot of them probably don't have the drive I did.

A better solution to this problem would be to have some volunteer captain's join beginner matches to help teach those willing to learn. New players are clay mounds with the potential to become glorious pieces of pottery, but if they don't have an experienced hand to help craft them into their shape, we get nowhere.

[QKO]

No, just no. Giving the player base control over that puts to much trust in people. A person can be nice, people are sheep and tend to have a pack mentality. If that person trying to move up from the 'casual' pool were to make a few small mistakes, chances are some (and I mean some, Merry men did a great job Saturday past of demonstrating the comradeship and sportsmanship in this games player base) players might vote them down as not good (elite) enough to play with. A system such as you suggest will inevitably end up with a two (or even 3 including beginners matches)  tiered system which divides the player base permanently. The more people who join GoIO and stay with us, the higher the chance of a split player base happening. As far as i am concerned, no one player or group of players should have the right to limit who can play with who. If we want dedicated games against opponents who we know are skilled and with players we know are skilled don't we already have the clan system and the esports centered around that?

You missed the point. As far as voting goes, people have thus far been very liberal with the commendation system. Even while they don't just hand them out at random, they still give those to the majority of players. If a player desires to overstep his initial set boundaries, which in current form are the lvl1-3 matches, he has to prove to others he's doing that for valid reasons. It is not a voting mechanism to abuse and keep everyone out, if that ends up being the case I'll even come back here to tell it has to be changed. The problem right now however is that people have free access to an environment that isn't necessarily waiting for them(and that is an understatement) and allowing these people to abuse that access is going to cause just as much trouble as the supposed elitist community keeping everyone out. So yeah, a middle road has to be sought, but again, my intention is to keep those who just want to dick around playing together and those who are interested in playing the actual game(which means LISTENING, COMMUNICATING, OBEDIENCE) into the currently main player pool.

In my eyes, the best way to prevent the split is to keep playing the pubs. Sure there will be the occasional bad egg but I'm sure the vast majority of the casual player base are trying to learn the game. Is it not our duty to assist those players rather than isolate them for mistakes we all would have made at some point? (and some of us still do!)

What you're saying is like, "Lets ignore the currently slowly growing problem and it will be alright". The problem here, right now, that is slowly growing but can grow faster as soon as this game picks up, is that the definition of casual is now different from what it was. The current day casuals are yesterday's retards. It's the group of players that purposely do things they shouldn't, that trolls their team(I don't mind a good minelauncher troll from my opponent tbh) and try to incite rage at every turn. I mean, by old definition I'm still a casual player, I don't play competitive (except for subbing on TCD last saturday) and have no real intention to do that thus far. Yet me being me, I care about the game and how I play it. I want to improve and get to a level where I can be proud at myself. It means I have to practice, it means I have to learn. In that sense, I'm a hardcore casual player. The current definition of casual simply does not honor the group of players that are motivated but not competitive and the modern definition of hardcore is "not casual": if you're pissed off at your pilot overshooting your target the 20th time even while you told him to slow down, you are the elitist hardcore idiot; he didn't do anything wrong.

Our duty is to assist the old definition of casual players, the old definition of competitive players, the motivated crowd that has been suffering a lot lately in mainstream games. They are the ones that will do anything they can to enjoy the game as much as you do and they will love to take your advice. Those are the players we want. And sure, we can end up with the occasional fit, but it will not end up at HoN/DotA/LoL levels if we manage this properly early on.

QKO, the best I can recommend is that you join a competitive focused clan and try to only play with them/other clans. You are never going to avoid "casual" players otherwise. Attempting to split the player base into two group on purpose is something Muse will never do, because it's bad for business. I don't think you're correct in assuming the separation will be done naturally.

If I were to join a clan and play matches with them(and only with them), that would be inhousing. Remember that I'm trying to prevent inhousing and I'm trying to make sure the teams nicely stay in pub grounds staying as accessible as they should be. Do you understand how ridiculous it is that I can play Guilty Gear and challenge any player regardless of skill and he will play against me, while going into dota and having to fight my way through some retarded ELO system? Given that Guilty Gear is 1v1 and much more targeted towards a motivated crowd, it's no excuse for GoIO to end up in the dota like fashion. And it isn't just the ELO system, private inhouses are just as bad. They stop motivated players from getting anywhere, because they are stuck with the retards.

I can tell you care a lot about the game and are worried that it will fill up with annoying people who make it no fun to play, but discriminating against new people/those who don't have the time to master every little nuance is not the way to keep things from going downhill. The best we can do is continue to try and teach those who don't know what their doing and show them how fun working as a team really is. I have yet to meet a person in GoIO who reacted badly to a little advice; heavens know I certainly could still use it often.

I'm not discriminating against new players. You want to learn Guilty Gear and you live in Europe? I'm willing to explain it to you right now as a matter of speaking. Guns Of Icarus is no different(except I don't feel experienced enough as it is). The problem for me is that I invest time into this game, I don't wish for my time to be ill-invested, there's a lot of porn I can download in that time so it has to be worth it. And guess what? What type of player will ALWAYS be a waste of time to play with? -> The modern casual player. That is the group I try to segregate. I'm not saying they should be banned from playing the game, heck, they might learn that learning the tricks of the trade and playing the game as intended is actually a lot more fun and would want to make a switch between the crowds. This is beneficial to both groups, because the motivated players don't have to yell at anyone and the 'casual' group doesn't get yelled at. The 'casual' players can determine at their own pace on how they desire to play and enjoy the game. Yet because the system is done by Muse on a generic level, the transition between the two communities will be a LOT easier than inhouses.

And this method of separation has worked to some extend in AVA, where there wasn't even a voting mechanism; there people who didn't know where to go or were ill aiming were immediately kicked(because there is a beginner pool). On the flipside, I could create a new alt(starting at level 1) in that game and immediately play on the main servers without much issues. It means that I as a motivated pub player had direct access to the non-beginner pool at the risk of getting kicked from their games if I performed badly. That is what I believe should be a decent blueprint for GoIO to use as a starting point.

[Eukari]

Okay, I think I'm getting a better sense of what you're asking for. I think my main problem thus far has been your terminology- casual vs. hardcore. When you're talking about "casual" players, what you really mean is bad players; the kind who don't care about learning the game and aren't going to get better over time. And when you say "hardcore," you mean good players; the kind who do care about learning the game and want to get better over time. That's the divide you want to make- keep the "bad" players and the "good" players separate.

I'm a longtime World of Warcraft player, and that game has long had a distinction between the "hardcore" and "casual" players supposedly based on how much each group played each week. People would often argue that Blizzard (the company that makes WoW) favored one at the expense of the other, or that they "obviously don't care about [casual/hardcore] players and just want to pander to the [hardcore/casual] crowd." The thing is, that dichotomy is worthless. How much someone plays the game does not, ultimately, equal their devotion or ability to play said game.

I think this is why your description of "casual" and "hardcore" players makes me angry; I'm coming off of a very similar argument that was ultimately pointless, and I'd like to not have it again here. Thus, I will from now on refer to our two groupings as "bad" and "good" players respectively.

The problem is that there's no good way to separate good and bad players other than rankings and the like, and the player base in GoIO is far too small to institute some kind of system like that. How many people are actually playing this game? I've never seen more than 1,000 online at any given time; I play at odd hours, true, but that's the absolute maximum. How many of those are under level three in all classes? How many are over level 10? If I level up, will I suddenly have nobody else to play with? What if level is a poor measure of player skill? I got to level three/four in everything just by playing the game for a couple weeks. Yeah, I'm not bad, but I'm far from an expert. How do you measure that? Do we let players police themselves? Vote kick systems are ripe for abuse, and, as I said, there are too few players to go kicking all of the bad ones that show up. You're right that the commendation system is fairly weak; most people just hit it as a matter of course. But I'm not sure what else can be done.

I'd also like to say that I have yet to notice any large wave of "bad" players showing up. Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, but never so many I can't just ignore the annoying ones or find a new lobby to play in.

[Mr. Ace Rimmer]

What you're saying is like, "Lets ignore the currently slowly growing problem and it will be alright"

That is the exact opposite of what I am saying and you know it. Since when did engaging with the community and actively trying to rectify a growing problem become ignorance. If Muse were to ever implement a system that split the player base the way you are suggesting, I would consider myself having gotten my $10 out of the game and walk away from it.

I fail to see this problem as anything more than minor and sincerely believe you are looking at the situation with a very lopsided view based on what should have been in my experience (and I believe a lot of others) a statistical anomaly.

I have been playing quite regularly for nigh on 3 weeks now and I would say <1% of the player base I have encountered fit into the category you are describing.

No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, what you are selling is elitism, a two tiered player base, us and them, and I and many others just aren't buying it.

(The reporting system exists for a reason and should continue to be used. I'm pretty sure Muse follow up on all reports.)

[QKO]

I'm a longtime World of Warcraft player, and that game has long had a distinction between the "hardcore" and "casual" players supposedly based on how much each group played each week. People would often argue that Blizzard (the company that makes WoW) favored one at the expense of the other, or that they "obviously don't care about [casual/hardcore] players and just want to pander to the [hardcore/casual] crowd." The thing is, that dichotomy is worthless. How much someone plays the game does not, ultimately, equal their devotion or ability to play said game.

I think this is why your description of "casual" and "hardcore" players makes me angry; I'm coming off of a very similar argument that was ultimately pointless, and I'd like to not have it again here. Thus, I will from now on refer to our two groupings as "bad" and "good" players respectively.

You can argue all you want, but definition is definition and sadly definition can change. It's sad to see the "I play for fun" slogan being abused the way it is now, I really mean that. But there's no way around it really.

The problem is that there's no good way to separate good and bad players other than rankings and the like, and the player base in GoIO is far too small to institute some kind of system like that. How many people are actually playing this game? I've never seen more than 1,000 online at any given time; I play at odd hours, true, but that's the absolute maximum. How many of those are under level three in all classes? How many are over level 10? If I level up, will I suddenly have nobody else to play with? What if level is a poor measure of player skill? I got to level three/four in everything just by playing the game for a couple weeks. Yeah, I'm not bad, but I'm far from an expert. How do you measure that? Do we let players police themselves? Vote kick systems are ripe for abuse, and, as I said, there are too few players to go kicking all of the bad ones that show up. You're right that the commendation system is fairly weak; most people just hit it as a matter of course. But I'm not sure what else can be done.

I'd also like to say that I have yet to notice any large wave of "bad" players showing up. Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, but never so many I can't just ignore the annoying ones or find a new lobby to play in.

No, you do not need a ranking, like mentioned AVA has done fine with the noob pool + kicking and having such a pool with some minor enforcement will do wonders. You will keep some rotten apples, sure, but they will stay a minority.

That is the exact opposite of what I am saying and you know it. Since when did engaging with the community and actively trying to rectify a growing problem become ignorance. If Muse were to ever implement a system that split the player base the way you are suggesting, I would consider myself having gotten my $10 out of the game and walk away from it.

No, that is exactly what you said, you just don't know it. Of course we would want everyone to pub happily, but there's limits to people's patience. The sooner we agree on that the sooner we can start on making sure that that patience limit doesn't get reached.

I fail to see this problem as anything more than minor and sincerely believe you are looking at the situation with a very lopsided view based on what should have been in my experience (and I believe a lot of others) a statistical anomaly.

I have been playing quite regularly for nigh on 3 weeks now and I would say <1% of the player base I have encountered fit into the category you are describing.

No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, what you are selling is elitism, a two tiered player base, us and them, and I and many others just aren't buying it.

(The reporting system exists for a reason and should continue to be used. I'm pretty sure Muse follow up on all reports.)

No, now it isn't nearly as bad as it can be. The way the game is set up now, bad players don't even stay very long because it goes ugly really fast for them. However, when I started playing HoN, the community was just like this one is now. It has gone to shit, it went to shit before people even realized what was up and when it finally hit everyone in the face, the assumption was that going retail would fix it. It went retail, the idiots stayed, matchmaking was around the corner, it would fix this issue; it didn't, it as a matter of fact made them worse. Now it's gone to a reporting system with a mute button and.. oh everyone left for DotA2. DotA2 now has all the ragers and idiots. What happened there? Mute system got implemented, every player that gave a shit about winning was pissed off so bad... Even I wanted to swing my PC out the window that day. And it just got worse, the matchmaking system there did the opposite of fixing things. So again, this is the future of GoIO if the development team is not careful.

I'm not selling elitism. I'm not an elitist, I don't think people should be withheld from my game on the merit that they are less skilled than I am. I believe they should be withheld from my games because they just don't give a fuck, and I do. As long as bad players are trying, I can make them better than they think they are. If they don't care, I might as well be downloading porn.

[Eukari]

Nobody is using the casual/hardcore definition except for you. Unless you're saying that people are deliberately playing badly, and then defending themselves with "I play for fun," I don't think your definitely is accurate.  As someone who often describes themselves as a casual gamer, it's more than a little offensive to just be lumped in with people who would more accurately be described as a**holes. Unless you think "just playing for fun" is negative behavior in and of itself, in which case we have nothing further to discuss.

Again, I'm not unsympathetic to your viewpoint; nobody wants to game with a bunch of people who aren't even trying to play, but I have yet to see any signs of some community-wide slide into barbarism. Until this actually becomes a problem, I don't think we need to be tearing our hair out about something that may never become an issue.

[Echoez]

It's sad to see the "I play for fun" slogan being abused the way it is now

This is something I'd like to draw everyone's attention to.

This particular slogar, just as QKO put it, the famous "I play for fun and not to win" is realy as bullshit as it can get and please for all that is good, stop using it.

In a game where you are competing with other players winning IS and SHOULD be fun. There is no 'I play for fun and not win' crap, that's just a lame excuse for you dicking around and probably ruining your teamate's game as well if he isn't dicking around along with you.

Now, is winning the only fun thing in a competitive game? NO, it isn't, but I and I assume many more people aren't having fun when someone is deliberately ruining it for them cause 'he/she plays for fun and not to win', cause we play to win and we have fun while doing so and if we lose while TRYING, then yes, it's still amazingly fun, but honestly, stop using that lame excuse, it's infuriating beyond any belief, you are not playing alone in this game, so you might want to consider your teammates as well.