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Lumberjack Discussion

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Linen:

--- Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 26, 2013, 12:04:33 pm ---we need ways to kill ships and the effective methods have never been fewer than they currently are, the last thing we need is to lose one more.

--- End quote ---

I miss the pre buff Artemis.  :'(
I don't care what anyone says, they were deadly on my ships.

It'd be nice to see less gat/flack around.

NikolaiLev:
I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that simply because something isn't prevalent in the meta doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.  While difficulty of use is a factor in balance, it is only to a point, and thus even if something is extremely difficult to use it shouldn't be excessively more powerful than other choices.

And frankly, from my experience, the Lumberjack is far easier to hit with than the Heavy Flak, especially at range (where they see the most use).  The projectile travels quickly enough, and you have enough rounds, not to mention the fact your target is the balloon; this makes it actually an easy weapon to hit with.  Easier than the Typhon, and far easier than the Light Mortar.

I really don't like the Lumberjack as it stands, because it's such a binary weapon.  The Heavy Flak's damage output is reduced by half in close range; the Lumberjack's damage output has the majority of its purpose removed just because you're firing at a certain range.  However, this is important to introduce counterplay.  This weapon does have a huge weakness.  There is counterplay.  And that's why I feel the LJ isn't particularly problematic right now.

Could it do with some slight adjustments?  Sure, I wouldn't mind.  But care has to be taken; I feel it needs to be able to deal damage to at least armor to be of any use.  Otherwise, a Flak is simply superior.

Ofiach:
@ linen the arming time turns into an absolute joke with incendiary ammo. 110m is basically humping distance and at that range the slower projectile speed doesn't matter.

@ smollet awkm came out and said he updated the numbers so I'm trying to figure out why they're absolutely wrong? I did make a mistake on the permahull number good catch.

Also comparing a weapon with a max range of 450m to something that reaches out to 3k+(not saying I land many at 3k+) is comparing apples and oranges.  But for the sake of argument we'll go with it. Still in the time it takes to fire off a full clip of well aimed lumbershots your talking Maybe 3 shots from the Heavy carronade, which is around
(3)340(180%)=1836
(3)220(20%)  =132
Total damage there 1968 just to balloons so the LJ(3300) is still doing more damage starting at a range of at least triple the carronades range.

The manticore does great at crippling components and also crushing the permahull, but you aren't seeing the weapon take subsequent systems like the LJ can. The carronade does it somewhat but as stated above it's naturally gimped by close range only.

Ok onto the gatling, it's a great gun but you're gonna dump a clip and be about ready to dump another clip from the LJ by the time the gat finishes firing it's first clip. Also the gat isn't shredding armor and then barely losing any steam into the permahull. It loses almost all of it's damage potential once you get into permahull. I mean 2x60 and 1x60 so 180 damage total to perma hull if a full gat clip hits it. Also max range on a gat is 700 meters, it's not near as bad a comparison as the carronade but still an iffy one. Also A weapons specifically designed to shred armor only beating out a balloon weapon by 330 damage a clip is a little unsettling.

Look the lumber can just roll from one primary system(balloon) on into the next(armor) without any sort of break, every other gun has a natural damage break that needs to be compensated for by another weapon. Once a balloon goes down to a Lumberjack a gunner is just one shot popping that thing from there on in and watching the armor wreck happen. Since there is no penalty to the damage besides the natural multipliers the gunner can keep aiming at the biggest target on an enemy ship and cripple its armor as well as balloon.

Maybe the enemy engies catch a break and get two mallet hits on it before that next lumber shell comes in. What happens? Nope the balloon is still in one shot hell mode. A ship has to go into tank mode and not deal any DPS to survive a lumber barrage and hope his teammate can save his ass.

Once again I was trying to show how this gun in a vacuum is one of the only few that kills by itself. The carronade being the other. Everything else has a natural damage break that needs to be overcome by another weapon. Maybe the answer really is as simple as lowering flechette effectiveness against against armor.

Captain Smollett:
The Lumber Jack has a 7 second reload. This is massive and is the major balancing factor that is being left out. That's why a clip by clip comparison isn't fair.  Taken by a damage per minute account, assuming you land all 6 shots of Lumber Jack (which is really assuming a lot) then it does just about the same damage as a heavy carronade minus the shatter damage, not to mention no competent gunner is going to miss with heavy carronade.

That being stated there is a very narrow range window where the LJ is effective using ammo with 6 shots (1-.35km) Any captain that sits in that range for more than one clip is terrible. Also being within the arming time of incindiary is not difficult at all.  You may lose your balloon once but 7 seconds is more than enough time to get in arming time of a Galleon, destroy the lone gun on a goldfish or outright kill the Spire shooting you with it.

It's not just that you don't see many Lumberjacks in pub matches, you also don't see many in Cogs matches either. Good pilots and teams have many ways to counter them and frequently punish teams who try to bring them. They are effective but have far more counters than gat flak.  Anyone can sit here and spout statistics.about how good the gun is on paper, and I'll agree with you, but when it comes to actual gameplay against skilled teams, you'll find the weapon to be very well balanced. 

I know many players haven't been around as long as I have but the LJ has gotten to where it is now after a long and careful balancing process. I've seen it stronger and I've seen it weaker and I'm pretty sure that it's one of the few weapons that really are just right with balance.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Squid is 750 on balloon if you go by Hydro kill count. Hydro kills the balloon in 10 secs on a squid. Muse has said it is still 1200 but they haven't confirmed if there is another factor involved because the numbers don't add up.

Jack is perfect imo. It relies more on gunner skill and pilot evasion.

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