Author Topic: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.  (Read 16886 times)

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2017, 09:11:58 am »
From what I've been reading, it sounds like the original "hand of balance" (in all it's horror) was swapped, for a slightly more bureaucratic and multi-headed "hand of balance". Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like a new face of the same old. Is hiring a seasoned and experienced lead game designer to determine the balance really such a terrible, hard-to-implement concept?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 09:13:32 am by Byron Cavendish »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2017, 09:53:02 am »
The Hand is the most active and vocal member of the Player Council since they control the direction of discussion and what goes through. It used to be Atruejedi, and say what you want but it was highly organized and democratic. Frankly, I loved how focused and efficient it was. I stopped because discussion was constantly off topic and the new Hand said they didn't care about balancing the game and just wanted to change stuff

On a side note, it's curious how simple and apparently unanimously supported tweaks don't make it into testing, like the long overdue slight reload time decrease for the Minotuar, while more divisive changes actually make it into the game after many weeks of discussion and testing
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:02:39 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Naoura

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2017, 11:12:50 am »
Aye, it offers the most across all three.

The Forum is too slow for some ideas to come about, they get so little attention because of it. The Discord is much more immediate, and discussion can be more rapid there.

The Trello is a grand place to keep it recorded, where everyone is able to see what the council has come up with. For what the council does, they need that level of record. Trello is a good place for it.

In order to raise awareness of everything and to give proper warning, and to give a date for testing the changes. It also gives everyone a voice where it's needed, as everyone can't be on the discord when the discussion takes place, and not everyone knows about the Trello, or even how to work it.

A week is certaily a long time, but it's the best for the widest possible audience.


As for the Hand discussion... I've had my differences with the current one. Ambivalence would be the best description. My opinion on most parts is that they are actively trying to shake up the established meta, trying to reform it and rebuild from the whole. But the issue with that is parts are left on the way side, case and point the Mino.

There was a balancing discussion planned for the Hwacha, reducing AoE, which I somewhat agree with, though we're simply back where we started with Burst and the Hwacha, despite the ammo reduction. That may be a move in the right direction, or it may not. I'm not certain.

The issue with it is that it's not focused on any one point. Just change. There's not schedule, no focused topics, and no planned discussions as far as I can see. On the one hand that allows for a lot more in the way of democratic discussion, on the other hand.. chaotic.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:21:11 am by Naoura »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 10:53:29 pm »
Once upon a time, there was a bunch of players that played a game, and thought the devs did not listen to them. The devs did, but sometimes made mistakes that made it seem like they did not, and caused the players to raise pitchforks. This caused moral to be low, especially with the very vocal campaigns of a hostile abrasive person that could never be pleased. Moral was low on all sides.

Another person set out with a plan... a very long term plan to mend these relations. Step one was to caution and moderate the abrasive person, crafting his hostilities into a more productive weapon. Easy there. More slowly here. Small steps...

"Let me handle this." while speaking to the abrasive one.
"Let me handle him." while speaking to the devs.

This worked for a time, until a thing happened and the abrasive person was no more. However, the plans set forth had to go on, perhaps more easily now...

/story

So, let's address that point BlackenedPies keeps flaunting as if it is the undeniable truth. Richard (we all know who these two are ambiguously and passive aggressively trying to avoid naming) does not care about balance, and just wants to make changes.

False.

*GASP!*

How can it be so??? Didn't he say once or twice he did not care about balance when suggesting things to test in devapp? Absolutely. I did say it.

GUILTY!

Now, hold on there, buckeroo. You will notice a distinct difference in what I just wrote, and what BlackenedPies wrote. He wrote: "didn't care about balancing the game and just wanted to change stuff" Now, this is not exactly the truth, and is a very misleading 'paraphrasing' of several things I have said. Let's examine those things.

1. didn't care about balancing the game

This was said on multiple occasions when suggesting interesting and fun things to test (by more than just me) along with more serious suggestions, something Mr. Pies was very against. He wanted two completely separate testing... things? One to test 'serious' balance changes, with another to test 'fun' stuff, which he was not in favor of doing at all. However, he seems to have forgotten who fought the hardest for Mobula balance, as well as pushed hard against what became the Minotaur (hint, it was me). It is easy to forget who gave the final stats that are used in the Mobula when you are trying to push an agenda, isn't it? It is easy to discount countless hours staring at spreadsheets, charts, and equations when you are trying to gather pity to your side.

The truth: Balance was not important in making testing fun, and getting people involved in making suggestions. It was called Wild Week because people were encouraged to make outlandish suggestions. People had fun with it. Muse had fun with it. Moral improved across the board. The tone started changing. A long missing sense of trust began to trickle to the surface.

2. just wanted to change stuff

In other terms, this is "Change for change's sake." Do I want to just change things, including things that are already 'balanced'? In a word, yes. This is an important practice that all successful online games have learned. How much has the GOI meta changed in the last few years? Other games shift things around on a monthly, if not weekly basis. It is decried, yes, but necessary. Waiting for that next nerf/buff patch is nearly a ritual. GOI has, well, stagnation.

To combine those two things in the way you have is simply a lie you have told yourself enough times that you actually believe it. The simple fact is that you were the minority in the talks. No, most people did not disagree with the Heatsink ammo reduction. I just went back through 6 months of Discord conversations, and there were roughly the same amount of people on either side in the begining, with a few wavering depending on the suggestions. After you left, and the topic came back up again, most people came down on the side of normalized ammo and damage. Some because they thought it was a good balance change, others just for a change.

Am I the Hand of Balance? No. I guide where I can, but I have not forced anything through (yet... looking at you gun buff) that goes against the grain of the discussion. I facilitate the changes, and there are a lot of them.

Am I the driving force in the changes happening in the game now? Honestly, yes. I poke and prod the Experimental Crew (we changed from Player Counsel due to people thinking we were an aid group) to keep up as much interest as possible. I suggest outlandish things to get conversations going and see what ideas drop out. I gather the thoughts of others on Trello, keep it updated with the latest test stats and give reasons when I can, spend way too many hours looking over numbers, pass stat requests to the devs, ask and prod for more than we should have, help run, or run weekend testing, spend way too much time testing just one last thing, collect feedback through surveys linked ingame, parse the feedback for easy intake by Muse (with original answers linked), and start the cycle over for the next week with hopes of getting everything ready for a monthly balance patch update. WHILE having an 8-10 hour day job and a family.

I have been successful in doing something no one else has done in the 5 years this game has existed, in my free time. The Experimental Crew is a group of awesome people that I enjoy working with. Muse is another group of awesome people I enjoy working with. Together, we have done a damn fine job. We are crafting balance changes, some of them core gameplay. After this next ammo patch, we have our eyes set on bigger fish.


Anyone is free to include the forum in the talk if they wish. Be the forum guru if you want. I am not going to run everything, especially with so little return. Most of the time when I check the forum, there is only 1 active user in the last 15 minutes, and it is me. Discord is far more active AND diverse than this forum.

/rant

Byron, if you would like to get out of the salt circle you have drawn and know what is actually going on instead of reading a few posts here from people that exiled themselves, feel free to join us. If not, then I don't really care what you have to say.

Naoura, we have been focused on nothing be the current ammo patch for over two months with a very specific goal. Get off your high Spire.

Offline Naoura

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 02:36:49 am »
@Richard, The above is exactly why I suggested using the filter theory I suggested. Not everyone is going to check the trello, just like not everyone is going to check the forum, or is involved in the Discord. going through 'months of discord conversations' is kind of a part of the reason you have salt and dissention.

While I disagree with you on several points, I do respect the position you have and what you're doing. Not a fan of you, personally, but that's by the by.

As it stands, the filter I suggested might help minimize some of the issues. I'm not saying that you should take more on your plate with that, but that those involved in the discussion need to include all parts. Trello is a great records keeping place, but not everyone has the link or will check it, just like the Forum, and just like the Discord. The discussion isn't centralized and there is no concrete record for others to look at. Going back through those months of conversation wastes a lot of time for everyone involved, so making a quick note of the discussion as it happens, likely on Trello, would be for the best on all parties, honestly.

The Forum is just to hear the wider feedback, for those who either cannot be on the testing crew, such as myself, due to work or family reasons, or else those who aren't a part of the discord discussion, or else weren't present for it at the time. An open planning session isn't very open if it's buried under a thousand messages.

As for the "hand of Balance" issue... On the one hand, you did state that you were trying things for fun. Seeing what could be done, what might work, and what some might enjoy. On the other, the recent ammunition changes do an about-face to that idea, and directly balance out ammunition types. For the worse in some opinions.

Can't have it both ways, as I see it. With such a large change here, I think it's moving away from "Fun" and more towards "Balance". That hwacha proposal we discussed kind of straddles the line on that, and moves towards the balance side of the spectrum. If you're going to keep the position... Honestly, time to start focusing on the Balance half. You've become the, if controversial, voice of the community balancing. As you're trying to prod it along, you're also taking on the blame and responsibilities. Sad, but how it is.

There's only so much you can do, true, and that's part of what you've got to focus on. Which side; Fun or balance? If Fun, then I'd say it gets to be a lot easier for you, just some interesting, playful things, like making the Minotaur a charging weapon, or else a Hwacha mk.2 that's like you suggested ages ago. For Balance.... I'd say move away from Mk.2 and start working towards making everything, or nearly everything, viable.

Can't do both.

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2017, 08:50:55 am »
Just want to remind, a few people are still wait old functions of heatsink rounds in new ext mag rounds, now its looks like it cut off from game. And I still don't understand the changes of Greased rounds, this one really looks like "just wanted to change stuff". Experience player just will say you and hell with this greased gatling, we still can use loch for, but what to do with novice player? Long range banshees using broken. For what? All was tested, but maybe new magnate toy take too much focus on.

Offline Corporal Ravioli

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2017, 09:36:38 am »
I still don't understand the changes of Greased rounds

It's a similar story to the other ammunitions that I feel got "lost" in the soup of + and - stats. It was advertised as a close-quarters high ROF ammunition, but players were still getting medium-range armor breaks when firing with a gatling. The risk-vs-reward was too easy, and quickly became the "muh DPS" meta.

The new greased has a wider grouping which forces players to engage even closer to the enemy target, bringing it closer to what I felt it was advertised as.

Funny, that's about all I have to say for all of the ammunitions that have been changed thus far - that they finally match what's printed on the tin.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2017, 11:14:55 am »
Well, this has given some interesting reading. I'm going to be frank, because that's what I do, but I'm not trying to be rude. Me and my clan have been watching from the outside (for some years now) for the changes that needed to occur for us to return; haven't seen them yet, this confirms it  still. Been waiting for the day that Muse stops hiring staff from their community, or letting them run the game. Still waiting for them to hire knowledgeable professionals that have prior work experience in the field. Still waiting it seems.

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2017, 12:13:50 pm »
"Medium-range armor breaks when firing with a gatling", really? Max range greased gatling is 360 m only, and spread is exist on this range. No one in a clear mind opened fire from this range if was any possibility go closer. If you only plan go closer. Changes not critical when you use gatling as backup weapon, but hurt if you plan fight from gatling armor break. Yes, i told about pyramidon, no way to esacpe, if guns don't do they work.
What we have in another hand, do greased hades and lumberjack still work? Anyone who can spam it from 500 meters to galleon/spire please raise hand.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2017, 01:07:13 pm »
Greased was overpowered and arguably too long ranged. Increased jitter was proposed as a partial fix for jitter-limited guns like Gat and Banshee. I remember values argued as high as 30%, which some considered too high but seemed fair to me as a captain with many ships based entirely around greased.

90% is very high. Even if you can still hit the opponent ship, you're much less likely to hit the right component. Try it out in practice where you can see the near doubling of the jitter radius. Light carro is practically useless unless point blank. If the goal was to make greased exclusively for very close engagements and to use regular up to that, then it only partially accomplished that

Jitter is only a partial fix because nine guns are completely unaffected by jitter - like Hades and Lumber. They are limited by projectile speed and drop. Proposals included increased drop and reduced speed without affecting arm-time. I don't know why it was decided to only affect jitter-limited guns

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2017, 04:02:24 pm »
There is more simple way, if greased overpower - slightly drop rate of fire. SLIGHTLY! Less DPS for all, but no make random. "Proposals included increased drop and reduced speed without affecting arm-time" - sounds too complex. Arming range don't must decrease and increased drop should not allow lumberjack shoot direct down. If anyway we have jitter now on greased, why not set fixed value of jitter to weapon without it?

Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2017, 05:25:19 pm »
Quote
Byron, if you would like to get out of the salt circle you have drawn and know what is actually going on instead of reading a few posts here from people that exiled themselves, feel free to join us. If not, then I don't really care what you have to say.

Naoura, we have been focused on nothing be the current ammo patch for over two months with a very specific goal. Get off your high Spire.

Another self-appointed community ambassador getting on his high horse talking down to people while his heart is bleeding for his community to do all the things we never asked of him to do. 

This community is cursed with these types.  Keep working hard on your ammo changes.  Its helping the community sooooo much.


Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2017, 06:05:31 pm »
Going to reply to my own since I noticed how snarky I was.  I dont personally blame you for the self-appointment.  I realize people feel the need to fill the void the Devs have left time after time.   I just think the focus on balancing ammos is not helping the game or the community as a whole.  It only caters to the hardcore folks that give a shit about the little details. 

It does NOT grow the player base by balancing ammos over and over,  it does not help player retention, alliance has not helped either of those, and new ways and methods of player retention need to be implemented to grow.  Things are not stagnated because of Meta builds, and ammo types.  That only stagnates the vets.  But I feel like everyone knows this already and just likes to focus on what they can immediately control. 

Offline Naoura

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2017, 06:35:13 pm »
Oh, did not see the 'High spire' part.

I wasn't on anything of the sort, Richard. I was just recommending something on terms for combining all three sources, so that everyone is able to work on the same page, even if they aren't present.

If you're referring to the planning portion of what I've talked about, I rather believe that of Muse as well. It's not any kind of soap-boxing, just my personal opinion. The planning doesn't seem to be there on any side. Maybe that's due to me not really being a part of those who are privvy to what Muse has in mind, maybe it's just a faulty perception, but I don't see a proper plan in place.

Certainly, the ammo changes have been in the works for months, and there's plenty of controversy on it. To me, it's neither yea nor nay. The Greased changes make some weapons... interesting, and then don't affect others very greatly. This may have been due to Testing bias, some people not using the new greased in, say, the Lumber or the Hades as extensively as they might have, which led to bias on some parts. I can't be there very often. I don't know. What I do know is the controversy over it, and the issues coming across.

I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that the Charged changes were certainly a positive. There's.. literally no downside to the charged changes. For those who are unhappy about the, currently, incredibly inaccurate Greased, there's Heavy for component working, there's Regular for neither positive nor negative, and you still have the wonderfully effective Lesmok. With the added Extended, there's an obvious alternative for medium range combat.... in gatlings and banshees.

As for everything else... That's where the controversy really, really lies, I think.

As for Red's speech, I do think that the Veteran half does either discourage or kind of push out new blood, simply because of the game's size. Shaking up the meta means that the veteran's cannot create a solid barrier of skill between themselves and the newer players, which might help or drive away veteran players. Probably a little of both and neither. You might get some revived interest from those vets who've given up on the game, and make it interesting enough that newer players might see it coming to life a little more. Or it might simply shatter what's remaining. You don't know until it happens.

Just look at the introduction of Stamina. No one asked for it. Cropped up randomly. Came about rather unexpected. And has been mostly looked upon positively. Fluke? Maybe. But it did add a completely new part to the game that rather did shake up the game. I wasn't present for the time, but if anything happened, I'm guessing it's along the same line; some agreed, some came back, some were discouraged, some left in protest.

Changing up how the ammos work may inspire newer players to use varying ammunition types, which does mean they can become more skilled as they try out new things. They may think along the wrong lines, but that's why veterans are here, to help point the way.

Or They could fix the gunner Tutorial to actually include ammunition types, rather than just saying "Here comes another one!" 6 times. Like, seriously. The engineer tutorial is.. okay? At best? Piloting is alright, but gunner desperately needs help.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2017, 11:18:55 pm »
Red, I am not certain you understand how this community interaction thing works. In six months, we have gone from just testing whatever Muse gave us, to completely designing weapons, ammos, and laying out map adaptations based on our requests. These things do not come over night. They do not come from salty posts on a little read forum. They come from small steps and perseverance.

Honestly, I don't know what you are expecting, but it won't happen here. Nor do I understand what you are talking about by balancing ammos over and over. There have been less than 4 ammo changes in the last 4 years, not counting the ones we just did.

I think you are a little confused about me as well. Self-appointed? Hardly. A person mentioned earlier in this tread as a pillar of the community asked for me to be put in charge of balance long before any of this happened, and was not the only one. "while his heart is bleeding for his community to do all the things we never asked of him to do" again, wrong. I'll ask that you don't speak of the community, since the community did, indeed, ask of me to do. Even now, YOU are asking me to do things. What those things are, I don't know.

"But I feel like everyone knows this already and just likes to focus on what they can immediately control."

Should we instead focus on the things we can't control? This point makes no sense. Again, what are you asking for? 6 months ago, what we could control was nothing, then random things to test for fun, then slight balance changes, to more substantial changes. 'Control' is a very strong word for what we do as well. At this point, it is a shaky partnership. The creation of the Nemesis tested the limits. Delaying Mag was stabilizing it. Suddenly making salty demands would shatter it.

Ammo is our testbed. It is our focus for several reasons. One is that it HAS been asked for for a very long time. Even before you started playing. The other is that it is our proving ground. The Experimental Crew and partnership with Muse is still very much in build mode. That is something I don't think you understand. Balance changes are easy to do, which is why we are allowed to do them. Core mechanic changes take weeks, if not months to do. The partnership is not yet strong enough to make those calls. We don't do the work there. Muse does. We are still working on the foundation.

So, yes, we have been making some semi-random changes, and some changes just for change's sake. The reaction has been mostly positive, adding more bricks to our foundation. We do what we can to reinforce the partnership, and move on to bigger projects. That is the plan. To be allowed more access. How we get there is inconsequential, be it Tanks Spires or jittery Greased.

You have your opinions of what should happen, as do the others in this thread. None of you have actually stated what your overarching goals are, so I have no answers for you. If you want to sit on the outside and wait for your changes to happen, that is not likely to happen. If you have no interest in a 'dead game', what are you doing here? Trying to get others to share your lack of interest?

By the way, the removal of nerfs to Greased based on Hades and LJ was a group decision based on the predicted reactions of vets losing their favorite ammo on too many guns at once, and the fact that Hades and LJ have quite the well rounded ammo set (which was a goal). Nerfing Greased in them would have removed a viable ammo that was used in conjunction with other ammos, including normal. In Gat, mortar and Banshee, however, Greased was the "load it and use it like normal forever" ammo. In the end, it was decided that Greased was to be the 'close range' ammo, and it made no sense nerfing it for LJ and Hades to increase the range. We also tried removing the AOE radius, which had little effect. Maybe someone will come up with a good idea for it, but none of the ones we thought of were very viable in the end, especially for two higher skill guns that already use a lot of other ammos. Greased in Gat and Banshee is still very viable in conjunction with other ammos (the goal), creating a more dynamic ammo/gun play in some of the most used guns in the game.

Anyways, I have spent far too much time here. Busy things to do.