Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Richard LeMoon on June 30, 2017, 08:53:38 am
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In the coming week (July 3+), just in time for the real life fireworks, you will notice a major shift in our own 'fireworks'. The Experiential Crew, a group of old and new players, masters to casuals alike, has been hard at work crafting, testing, reworking, and retesting (repeat for weeks) a long awaited change to ammo balance in a co-effort with the Muse team. The goal of the changes has been to further define each ammo in its role, rather than the current meta based on the some of the secondary features of each ammo. It is designed to change the mentality of just one ammo 'always' being the right ammo for a certain gun. This has led to a stagnation of the meta, and calls for something new.
This will be the second major update that has large aspects almost completely created by players. The previous effort brought the Nemesis Heavy Carronade to our arsenal. The concept, stats, and function of the weapon were designed by players, while the devs worked hard to create the assets to match our vision. It was an amazing 5 week journey of ups, downs, celebration, and heated debates. We are quite happy with the result.
Following on this succees, Muse has entrusted us with a community generated balance patch at our request. The ammo rebalance will come in two stages. Stage 1 will involve changes to Burst and Greased, the most ubiquitous offenders in the game, Heatsink, the ammo that is rarely used for its supposed main use, and Charged, often collecting dust and forgotten. The following gives a basic outline of the changes.
Burst and Heastsink will lose their extra ammo capacity, and instead focus on their main function. For Burst, this means more damage on AOE per shot, without the extra shots. Heatsink will now remove all fire stacks on reload, and have some of its negative stats removed.
Greased and Charged will shift their focus, literally. Greased has long occupied too much of its bigger sibling's DPS space. Both are DPS increasing ammos, so compete directly with each other while lacking a real distinction in function. This most often leads to simply taking the ammo with more DPS, Greased. The new focus, however, will present a conscious and meaning choice between the two. The new focus of Greased will be short range, high DPS with the addition of high jitter. Charged, on the other hand, will have its focus on slightly longer range targets with the addition of velocity and reduction of jitter. Lesmok and Heavy Clip will not be encroached on, since the changes are minor. Just a little further, a little faster.
We will also have new content ported from PvE to PvP, including a ship, gun, and two new map modifications.
Stage 2 of the ammo balance will come later, after the dust has settled on this one. We are planning on presenting two new ammos. One to fill the +ammo role vacated by Burst and Heatsink, while the other will effectively be the opposite of Lesmok. Incendary and Lochnagar will also be getting very close scrutiny of the next month.
We know there will be people unhappy with the changes, with a lot of "Why....?" questions. The Experimental Crew will do our best to answer those questions.
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Why work so hard on a game that is literally on life support? I like the commitment but it sounds to me that Muse is passing the "workload" on to you as they phase out.
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How are changes voted on?
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Why work so hard on a game that is literally on life support? I like the commitment but it sounds to me that Muse is passing the "workload" on to you as they phase out.
Yeah man why try literally anything ever, right? We're all gonna die anyways, so we may as well just burn the video games. :-\
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Why work so hard on a game that is literally on life support? I like the commitment but it sounds to me that Muse is passing the "workload" on to you as they phase out.
Yeah man why try literally anything ever, right? We're all gonna die anyways, so we may as well just burn the video games. :-\
you missed the point. its ok. :-\
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Interesting, definitely shuffles ammo priorities around a bit. Charged is definitely going to unseat Burst as the go-to gatling gun ammo at medium range, both because Burst no longer gives it that magazine extension and because even a little bit of range extension helps it interact with light flak better.
I think Greased might still be a top-tier DPS ammo on the Aten and Accelerator, since those two guns are likely to be unaffected by the jitter multiplier and already effectively ignored the speed penalty. They will continue to enjoy the DPS boost with no downside. Which is probably a good thing, in a lot of situations those two guns really need that 60% RoF boost to be useful at all.
However, its use on the Banshee and Nemesis is now dead: both of those guns already have pretty noticeable spread, and certainly can't afford 90% more. Those two will probably want to use extended magazine when it comes out, until then it's between burst (since they do have some AoE worth considering) and charged (both would benefit from the slight jitter reduction).
The changes are quite interesting for Hwatchas. Burst is no longer the king of Hwatcha ammo: while it does still massively boost its disable power, because its AoE is shatter damage it no longer appreciably improves its killing power. Likely a tossup between Greased and Charged for killing, I'd give an edge to Charged due to Greased only working at absolutely point-blank range. The important takeaway for the Hwatcha is this: you now have to choose between boosting disabling and killing, you can't boost both at the same time.
Charged is likely to unseat burst as the preferred light mortar ammo. While the mortar does have a fair share of its damage in AoE, 25% of the whole thing is more than 10% of half. The magazine penalty on charged will likely make the damage a closer call, but the real thing that tilts the decision in favor of Charged is the slight range extension that allows the mortar to start firing earlier. However, extended magazine may be a strong contender when it comes out.
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Interesting, definitely shuffles ammo priorities around a bit. Charged is definitely going to unseat Burst as the go-to gatling gun ammo at medium range, both because Burst no longer gives it that magazine extension and because even a little bit of range extension helps it interact with light flak better.
I think Greased might still be a top-tier DPS ammo on the Aten and Accelerator, since those two guns are likely to be unaffected by the jitter multiplier and already effectively ignored the speed penalty. They will continue to enjoy the DPS boost with no downside. Which is probably a good thing, in a lot of situations those two guns really need that 60% RoF boost to be useful at all.
However, its use on the Banshee and Nemesis is now dead: both of those guns already have pretty noticeable spread, and certainly can't afford 90% more. Those two will probably want to use extended magazine when it comes out, until then it's between burst (since they do have some AoE worth considering) and charged (both would benefit from the slight jitter reduction).
The changes are quite interesting for Hwatchas. Burst is no longer the king of Hwatcha ammo: while it does still massively boost its disable power, because its AoE is shatter damage it no longer appreciably improves its killing power. Likely a tossup between Greased and Charged for killing, I'd give an edge to Charged due to Greased only working at absolutely point-blank range. The important takeaway for the Hwatcha is this: you now have to choose between boosting disabling and killing, you can't boost both at the same time.
Charged is likely to unseat burst as the preferred light mortar ammo. While the mortar does have a fair share of its damage in AoE, 25% of the whole thing is more than 10% of half. The magazine penalty on charged will likely make the damage a closer call, but the real thing that tilts the decision in favor of Charged is the slight range extension that allows the mortar to start firing earlier. However, extended magazine may be a strong contender when it comes out.
Burst was never used on Gat due to lower DPS than regular and no benefits. The mid range ammo was heavy clip due to its ability to maximize DPS to a particular component. For example, if more than 20% of your regular shots would've missed the armor then heavy clip is better. Charged may take over this use on Gat now due to longer max range and slightly lower jitter. Charged Gat DPS is slightly lower than regular, so it doesn't win in damage - only accuracy
Charged Hwatcha does 9% more DPC to hull but burst will still be the primary mid range ammo due to better disable power (and armor or balloon damage). Heatsink would've retained this DPC roll but it's been nerfed to uselessness. Often you want to keep disabling them with burst even if armor is down. If you want to maximize hull damage then the best ammo is heavy clip to ensure all shots hit hull directly. Charged is only better if every shot will hit hull and you don't care about disables
Burst was never good on the mortar. It had a limited and secondary use for pre-firing and disabling, but regular is much better at killing. Charged was a good secondary ammo due to increased DPS. It may become the primary mortar ammo now due to the nerf to greased
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I still maintain that burst should have a slightly smaller magazine. The ammo is described as being packed with more explosives, which would make them slightly larger, decreasing the overall magazine size.
Also BRING BACK THE HEATSINK MAGAZINE BOOST. I WANT TO SPAM HEATSINK MERCS.
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Also BRING BACK THE HEATSINK MAGAZINE BOOST. I WANT TO SPAM HEATSINK MERCS.
I like the new Heatsink. It embodies the point of this entire ammo patch to begin with.
Before there were too many +/- stats, and the finite extinguish power only partially fulfilled it's intended function. Now it functions like a gunner's fire extinguisher, which I always assumed was the point. Keeping the + turn speed is a very nice secondary function and I'll sometimes take it as an engineer for just that.
But yeah I get it CHANGE IS HARD.
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I'm just sitting here thinking about these changes when a crucial ammo to this change is still not implemented :(
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Back from my two week vacation. Answers:
Why work on a dead game (basically)? Loaded question. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question)
Has Muse passed the workload onto us? No. These are things we have asked for. In fact, we are generally making more work for Muse.
How are things voted on?
Generally through discussion in Discord, presentation of different points of view, and making options on Trello which are then talked over until we decide which ones to put forth. We used to put votes on the forum, but found it had really low turnout.
Extended Mag is on its way.
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I don't have time to be part of the community discussions these days, but I would like to see the Trello board. Where is it?
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https://trello.com/b/YJLpPUqW/experimental-crew-formerly-player-counsel
I'd like some sort of vote system since discussions can be abused. For example, when the idea to remove the DPC properties of Heatsink was proposed most players in Discord were against it. Now it's in the game without any explanation or discussion on the forum or Trello. Forum population is higher and greatly more varied than Discord - which only captures a limited subset of the playerbase
If the player counsel is going to ignore the forum then it should at least be posted on Trello so users who don't have the time or will to sit in Discord can still see some discussion. Forum posts are ideal since more players can contribute feedback and ideas
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Here's an idea, @BlackenedPies: Have it go through all three. Discord is a good place to discuss and talk, just spitball and see what comes out. Then it goes to Trello to have a record of the theory and all changes it has gone through as it is discussed and tested. Each and every change is sent to the Forum at least to ask the community their opinion, Yes, No, Write in. After a week, take the forum decision and test again.
So, in a list, kind of;
Discord; Place of just spitballing and coming up with ideas, having a more active discussion on it.
Trello; Record of changes from the community and a smaller scale forum, to be further expanded.
Forum; giving the players a chance to see what the Counsel has thought up, and how the community might react. Let that cook for a week, so a larger portion of the community has a chance to get eyes on it and give their opinion.
Test; Take the Forum decisions, combined with the PC decisions, and try it out. See how the testing crew enjoys.
Repeat as necessary.
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I think that's an excellent idea Naoura
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From what I've been reading, it sounds like the original "hand of balance" (in all it's horror) was swapped, for a slightly more bureaucratic and multi-headed "hand of balance". Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like a new face of the same old. Is hiring a seasoned and experienced lead game designer to determine the balance really such a terrible, hard-to-implement concept?
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The Hand is the most active and vocal member of the Player Council since they control the direction of discussion and what goes through. It used to be Atruejedi, and say what you want but it was highly organized and democratic. Frankly, I loved how focused and efficient it was. I stopped because discussion was constantly off topic and the new Hand said they didn't care about balancing the game and just wanted to change stuff
On a side note, it's curious how simple and apparently unanimously supported tweaks don't make it into testing, like the long overdue slight reload time decrease for the Minotuar, while more divisive changes actually make it into the game after many weeks of discussion and testing
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Aye, it offers the most across all three.
The Forum is too slow for some ideas to come about, they get so little attention because of it. The Discord is much more immediate, and discussion can be more rapid there.
The Trello is a grand place to keep it recorded, where everyone is able to see what the council has come up with. For what the council does, they need that level of record. Trello is a good place for it.
In order to raise awareness of everything and to give proper warning, and to give a date for testing the changes. It also gives everyone a voice where it's needed, as everyone can't be on the discord when the discussion takes place, and not everyone knows about the Trello, or even how to work it.
A week is certaily a long time, but it's the best for the widest possible audience.
As for the Hand discussion... I've had my differences with the current one. Ambivalence would be the best description. My opinion on most parts is that they are actively trying to shake up the established meta, trying to reform it and rebuild from the whole. But the issue with that is parts are left on the way side, case and point the Mino.
There was a balancing discussion planned for the Hwacha, reducing AoE, which I somewhat agree with, though we're simply back where we started with Burst and the Hwacha, despite the ammo reduction. That may be a move in the right direction, or it may not. I'm not certain.
The issue with it is that it's not focused on any one point. Just change. There's not schedule, no focused topics, and no planned discussions as far as I can see. On the one hand that allows for a lot more in the way of democratic discussion, on the other hand.. chaotic.
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Once upon a time, there was a bunch of players that played a game, and thought the devs did not listen to them. The devs did, but sometimes made mistakes that made it seem like they did not, and caused the players to raise pitchforks. This caused moral to be low, especially with the very vocal campaigns of a hostile abrasive person that could never be pleased. Moral was low on all sides.
Another person set out with a plan... a very long term plan to mend these relations. Step one was to caution and moderate the abrasive person, crafting his hostilities into a more productive weapon. Easy there. More slowly here. Small steps...
"Let me handle this." while speaking to the abrasive one.
"Let me handle him." while speaking to the devs.
This worked for a time, until a thing happened and the abrasive person was no more. However, the plans set forth had to go on, perhaps more easily now...
/story
So, let's address that point BlackenedPies keeps flaunting as if it is the undeniable truth. Richard (we all know who these two are ambiguously and passive aggressively trying to avoid naming) does not care about balance, and just wants to make changes.
False.
*GASP!*
How can it be so??? Didn't he say once or twice he did not care about balance when suggesting things to test in devapp? Absolutely. I did say it.
GUILTY!
Now, hold on there, buckeroo. You will notice a distinct difference in what I just wrote, and what BlackenedPies wrote. He wrote: "didn't care about balancing the game and just wanted to change stuff" Now, this is not exactly the truth, and is a very misleading 'paraphrasing' of several things I have said. Let's examine those things.
1. didn't care about balancing the game
This was said on multiple occasions when suggesting interesting and fun things to test (by more than just me) along with more serious suggestions, something Mr. Pies was very against. He wanted two completely separate testing... things? One to test 'serious' balance changes, with another to test 'fun' stuff, which he was not in favor of doing at all. However, he seems to have forgotten who fought the hardest for Mobula balance, as well as pushed hard against what became the Minotaur (hint, it was me). It is easy to forget who gave the final stats that are used in the Mobula when you are trying to push an agenda, isn't it? It is easy to discount countless hours staring at spreadsheets, charts, and equations when you are trying to gather pity to your side.
The truth: Balance was not important in making testing fun, and getting people involved in making suggestions. It was called Wild Week because people were encouraged to make outlandish suggestions. People had fun with it. Muse had fun with it. Moral improved across the board. The tone started changing. A long missing sense of trust began to trickle to the surface.
2. just wanted to change stuff
In other terms, this is "Change for change's sake." Do I want to just change things, including things that are already 'balanced'? In a word, yes. This is an important practice that all successful online games have learned. How much has the GOI meta changed in the last few years? Other games shift things around on a monthly, if not weekly basis. It is decried, yes, but necessary. Waiting for that next nerf/buff patch is nearly a ritual. GOI has, well, stagnation.
To combine those two things in the way you have is simply a lie you have told yourself enough times that you actually believe it. The simple fact is that you were the minority in the talks. No, most people did not disagree with the Heatsink ammo reduction. I just went back through 6 months of Discord conversations, and there were roughly the same amount of people on either side in the begining, with a few wavering depending on the suggestions. After you left, and the topic came back up again, most people came down on the side of normalized ammo and damage. Some because they thought it was a good balance change, others just for a change.
Am I the Hand of Balance? No. I guide where I can, but I have not forced anything through (yet... looking at you gun buff) that goes against the grain of the discussion. I facilitate the changes, and there are a lot of them.
Am I the driving force in the changes happening in the game now? Honestly, yes. I poke and prod the Experimental Crew (we changed from Player Counsel due to people thinking we were an aid group) to keep up as much interest as possible. I suggest outlandish things to get conversations going and see what ideas drop out. I gather the thoughts of others on Trello, keep it updated with the latest test stats and give reasons when I can, spend way too many hours looking over numbers, pass stat requests to the devs, ask and prod for more than we should have, help run, or run weekend testing, spend way too much time testing just one last thing, collect feedback through surveys linked ingame, parse the feedback for easy intake by Muse (with original answers linked), and start the cycle over for the next week with hopes of getting everything ready for a monthly balance patch update. WHILE having an 8-10 hour day job and a family.
I have been successful in doing something no one else has done in the 5 years this game has existed, in my free time. The Experimental Crew is a group of awesome people that I enjoy working with. Muse is another group of awesome people I enjoy working with. Together, we have done a damn fine job. We are crafting balance changes, some of them core gameplay. After this next ammo patch, we have our eyes set on bigger fish.
Anyone is free to include the forum in the talk if they wish. Be the forum guru if you want. I am not going to run everything, especially with so little return. Most of the time when I check the forum, there is only 1 active user in the last 15 minutes, and it is me. Discord is far more active AND diverse than this forum.
/rant
Byron, if you would like to get out of the salt circle you have drawn and know what is actually going on instead of reading a few posts here from people that exiled themselves, feel free to join us. If not, then I don't really care what you have to say.
Naoura, we have been focused on nothing be the current ammo patch for over two months with a very specific goal. Get off your high Spire.
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@Richard, The above is exactly why I suggested using the filter theory I suggested. Not everyone is going to check the trello, just like not everyone is going to check the forum, or is involved in the Discord. going through 'months of discord conversations' is kind of a part of the reason you have salt and dissention.
While I disagree with you on several points, I do respect the position you have and what you're doing. Not a fan of you, personally, but that's by the by.
As it stands, the filter I suggested might help minimize some of the issues. I'm not saying that you should take more on your plate with that, but that those involved in the discussion need to include all parts. Trello is a great records keeping place, but not everyone has the link or will check it, just like the Forum, and just like the Discord. The discussion isn't centralized and there is no concrete record for others to look at. Going back through those months of conversation wastes a lot of time for everyone involved, so making a quick note of the discussion as it happens, likely on Trello, would be for the best on all parties, honestly.
The Forum is just to hear the wider feedback, for those who either cannot be on the testing crew, such as myself, due to work or family reasons, or else those who aren't a part of the discord discussion, or else weren't present for it at the time. An open planning session isn't very open if it's buried under a thousand messages.
As for the "hand of Balance" issue... On the one hand, you did state that you were trying things for fun. Seeing what could be done, what might work, and what some might enjoy. On the other, the recent ammunition changes do an about-face to that idea, and directly balance out ammunition types. For the worse in some opinions.
Can't have it both ways, as I see it. With such a large change here, I think it's moving away from "Fun" and more towards "Balance". That hwacha proposal we discussed kind of straddles the line on that, and moves towards the balance side of the spectrum. If you're going to keep the position... Honestly, time to start focusing on the Balance half. You've become the, if controversial, voice of the community balancing. As you're trying to prod it along, you're also taking on the blame and responsibilities. Sad, but how it is.
There's only so much you can do, true, and that's part of what you've got to focus on. Which side; Fun or balance? If Fun, then I'd say it gets to be a lot easier for you, just some interesting, playful things, like making the Minotaur a charging weapon, or else a Hwacha mk.2 that's like you suggested ages ago. For Balance.... I'd say move away from Mk.2 and start working towards making everything, or nearly everything, viable.
Can't do both.
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Just want to remind, a few people are still wait old functions of heatsink rounds in new ext mag rounds, now its looks like it cut off from game. And I still don't understand the changes of Greased rounds, this one really looks like "just wanted to change stuff". Experience player just will say you and hell with this greased gatling, we still can use loch for, but what to do with novice player? Long range banshees using broken. For what? All was tested, but maybe new magnate toy take too much focus on.
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I still don't understand the changes of Greased rounds
It's a similar story to the other ammunitions that I feel got "lost" in the soup of + and - stats. It was advertised as a close-quarters high ROF ammunition, but players were still getting medium-range armor breaks when firing with a gatling. The risk-vs-reward was too easy, and quickly became the "muh DPS" meta.
The new greased has a wider grouping which forces players to engage even closer to the enemy target, bringing it closer to what I felt it was advertised as.
Funny, that's about all I have to say for all of the ammunitions that have been changed thus far - that they finally match what's printed on the tin.
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Well, this has given some interesting reading. I'm going to be frank, because that's what I do, but I'm not trying to be rude. Me and my clan have been watching from the outside (for some years now) for the changes that needed to occur for us to return; haven't seen them yet, this confirms it still. Been waiting for the day that Muse stops hiring staff from their community, or letting them run the game. Still waiting for them to hire knowledgeable professionals that have prior work experience in the field. Still waiting it seems.
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"Medium-range armor breaks when firing with a gatling", really? Max range greased gatling is 360 m only, and spread is exist on this range. No one in a clear mind opened fire from this range if was any possibility go closer. If you only plan go closer. Changes not critical when you use gatling as backup weapon, but hurt if you plan fight from gatling armor break. Yes, i told about pyramidon, no way to esacpe, if guns don't do they work.
What we have in another hand, do greased hades and lumberjack still work? Anyone who can spam it from 500 meters to galleon/spire please raise hand.
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Greased was overpowered and arguably too long ranged. Increased jitter was proposed as a partial fix for jitter-limited guns like Gat and Banshee. I remember values argued as high as 30%, which some considered too high but seemed fair to me as a captain with many ships based entirely around greased.
90% is very high. Even if you can still hit the opponent ship, you're much less likely to hit the right component. Try it out in practice where you can see the near doubling of the jitter radius. Light carro is practically useless unless point blank. If the goal was to make greased exclusively for very close engagements and to use regular up to that, then it only partially accomplished that
Jitter is only a partial fix because nine guns are completely unaffected by jitter - like Hades and Lumber. They are limited by projectile speed and drop. Proposals included increased drop and reduced speed without affecting arm-time. I don't know why it was decided to only affect jitter-limited guns
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There is more simple way, if greased overpower - slightly drop rate of fire. SLIGHTLY! Less DPS for all, but no make random. "Proposals included increased drop and reduced speed without affecting arm-time" - sounds too complex. Arming range don't must decrease and increased drop should not allow lumberjack shoot direct down. If anyway we have jitter now on greased, why not set fixed value of jitter to weapon without it?
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Byron, if you would like to get out of the salt circle you have drawn and know what is actually going on instead of reading a few posts here from people that exiled themselves, feel free to join us. If not, then I don't really care what you have to say.
Naoura, we have been focused on nothing be the current ammo patch for over two months with a very specific goal. Get off your high Spire.
Another self-appointed community ambassador getting on his high horse talking down to people while his heart is bleeding for his community to do all the things we never asked of him to do.
This community is cursed with these types. Keep working hard on your ammo changes. Its helping the community sooooo much.
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Going to reply to my own since I noticed how snarky I was. I dont personally blame you for the self-appointment. I realize people feel the need to fill the void the Devs have left time after time. I just think the focus on balancing ammos is not helping the game or the community as a whole. It only caters to the hardcore folks that give a shit about the little details.
It does NOT grow the player base by balancing ammos over and over, it does not help player retention, alliance has not helped either of those, and new ways and methods of player retention need to be implemented to grow. Things are not stagnated because of Meta builds, and ammo types. That only stagnates the vets. But I feel like everyone knows this already and just likes to focus on what they can immediately control.
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Oh, did not see the 'High spire' part.
I wasn't on anything of the sort, Richard. I was just recommending something on terms for combining all three sources, so that everyone is able to work on the same page, even if they aren't present.
If you're referring to the planning portion of what I've talked about, I rather believe that of Muse as well. It's not any kind of soap-boxing, just my personal opinion. The planning doesn't seem to be there on any side. Maybe that's due to me not really being a part of those who are privvy to what Muse has in mind, maybe it's just a faulty perception, but I don't see a proper plan in place.
Certainly, the ammo changes have been in the works for months, and there's plenty of controversy on it. To me, it's neither yea nor nay. The Greased changes make some weapons... interesting, and then don't affect others very greatly. This may have been due to Testing bias, some people not using the new greased in, say, the Lumber or the Hades as extensively as they might have, which led to bias on some parts. I can't be there very often. I don't know. What I do know is the controversy over it, and the issues coming across.
I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that the Charged changes were certainly a positive. There's.. literally no downside to the charged changes. For those who are unhappy about the, currently, incredibly inaccurate Greased, there's Heavy for component working, there's Regular for neither positive nor negative, and you still have the wonderfully effective Lesmok. With the added Extended, there's an obvious alternative for medium range combat.... in gatlings and banshees.
As for everything else... That's where the controversy really, really lies, I think.
As for Red's speech, I do think that the Veteran half does either discourage or kind of push out new blood, simply because of the game's size. Shaking up the meta means that the veteran's cannot create a solid barrier of skill between themselves and the newer players, which might help or drive away veteran players. Probably a little of both and neither. You might get some revived interest from those vets who've given up on the game, and make it interesting enough that newer players might see it coming to life a little more. Or it might simply shatter what's remaining. You don't know until it happens.
Just look at the introduction of Stamina. No one asked for it. Cropped up randomly. Came about rather unexpected. And has been mostly looked upon positively. Fluke? Maybe. But it did add a completely new part to the game that rather did shake up the game. I wasn't present for the time, but if anything happened, I'm guessing it's along the same line; some agreed, some came back, some were discouraged, some left in protest.
Changing up how the ammos work may inspire newer players to use varying ammunition types, which does mean they can become more skilled as they try out new things. They may think along the wrong lines, but that's why veterans are here, to help point the way.
Or They could fix the gunner Tutorial to actually include ammunition types, rather than just saying "Here comes another one!" 6 times. Like, seriously. The engineer tutorial is.. okay? At best? Piloting is alright, but gunner desperately needs help.
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Red, I am not certain you understand how this community interaction thing works. In six months, we have gone from just testing whatever Muse gave us, to completely designing weapons, ammos, and laying out map adaptations based on our requests. These things do not come over night. They do not come from salty posts on a little read forum. They come from small steps and perseverance.
Honestly, I don't know what you are expecting, but it won't happen here. Nor do I understand what you are talking about by balancing ammos over and over. There have been less than 4 ammo changes in the last 4 years, not counting the ones we just did.
I think you are a little confused about me as well. Self-appointed? Hardly. A person mentioned earlier in this tread as a pillar of the community asked for me to be put in charge of balance long before any of this happened, and was not the only one. "while his heart is bleeding for his community to do all the things we never asked of him to do" again, wrong. I'll ask that you don't speak of the community, since the community did, indeed, ask of me to do. Even now, YOU are asking me to do things. What those things are, I don't know.
"But I feel like everyone knows this already and just likes to focus on what they can immediately control."
Should we instead focus on the things we can't control? This point makes no sense. Again, what are you asking for? 6 months ago, what we could control was nothing, then random things to test for fun, then slight balance changes, to more substantial changes. 'Control' is a very strong word for what we do as well. At this point, it is a shaky partnership. The creation of the Nemesis tested the limits. Delaying Mag was stabilizing it. Suddenly making salty demands would shatter it.
Ammo is our testbed. It is our focus for several reasons. One is that it HAS been asked for for a very long time. Even before you started playing. The other is that it is our proving ground. The Experimental Crew and partnership with Muse is still very much in build mode. That is something I don't think you understand. Balance changes are easy to do, which is why we are allowed to do them. Core mechanic changes take weeks, if not months to do. The partnership is not yet strong enough to make those calls. We don't do the work there. Muse does. We are still working on the foundation.
So, yes, we have been making some semi-random changes, and some changes just for change's sake. The reaction has been mostly positive, adding more bricks to our foundation. We do what we can to reinforce the partnership, and move on to bigger projects. That is the plan. To be allowed more access. How we get there is inconsequential, be it Tanks Spires or jittery Greased.
You have your opinions of what should happen, as do the others in this thread. None of you have actually stated what your overarching goals are, so I have no answers for you. If you want to sit on the outside and wait for your changes to happen, that is not likely to happen. If you have no interest in a 'dead game', what are you doing here? Trying to get others to share your lack of interest?
By the way, the removal of nerfs to Greased based on Hades and LJ was a group decision based on the predicted reactions of vets losing their favorite ammo on too many guns at once, and the fact that Hades and LJ have quite the well rounded ammo set (which was a goal). Nerfing Greased in them would have removed a viable ammo that was used in conjunction with other ammos, including normal. In Gat, mortar and Banshee, however, Greased was the "load it and use it like normal forever" ammo. In the end, it was decided that Greased was to be the 'close range' ammo, and it made no sense nerfing it for LJ and Hades to increase the range. We also tried removing the AOE radius, which had little effect. Maybe someone will come up with a good idea for it, but none of the ones we thought of were very viable in the end, especially for two higher skill guns that already use a lot of other ammos. Greased in Gat and Banshee is still very viable in conjunction with other ammos (the goal), creating a more dynamic ammo/gun play in some of the most used guns in the game.
Anyways, I have spent far too much time here. Busy things to do.
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Of course you are going to defend this interaction you've created with Muse. Otherwise it would be a waste of time. So by all means. Defend yourself and your testing group.
IMO these balance changes ****ed things up awhile ago. Its not IMPROVING the community. It's far too much time wasted by people like yourself and Muse to nerf and buff things overall when noones doing A SINGLE THING to improve player retention. Nothing. Its acceptable for this small of a player base? Its acceptable to have two lobbies in PVP at a time? Sometimes one half filled?
Yes please continue to pour over your stat sheets, numbers, and exhaust your oh so busy schedule with these changes while the player base continues to suffer. It will really matter what rof the gatling greased ammo has. ::)
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To answer the question of "overarching goals", all I want is a solid, definite plan for future releases. I've stated it several times in the past, if not on this post.
Guns has reached a kind of equilibrium, there's only so much you can add to GoIO. Only so many holes to fill. And after that comes balancing, or else something big and completely new.
Alliance was supposed to be more of the second. I'm... not sure if it accomplished it or not. It's definitely a strong attempt, but it has gone through so many additions, minor changes, little additions that I'm not certain that Muse ever had it fleshed out and planned accordingly in the first place. I still maintain the position that Muse did not plan for what they wanted to accomplish. Adventure mode wouldhave taken them years. Alliance still took them 2 years longer than planned.
So, in that, planning and full or partial disclosure of those plans are all I want. The community can respond to them how they like, but at least they can respond to what is in development, either from the Council or from the Devs themselves.
That's exactly why I recommended what I did, using all three in that order, just so that everyone can be on the same page, even those not part of certain pieces. I would love to be able to test more often, and give my opinion on the testing, but it is literally always scheduled when I have work. So I can't be there every time, even though I do want to see what the changes are and what they have accomplished.
As for reducing greased's effectiveness in only a few weapons... I'm on the fence on that. Targeting it to make the Vets happy is a noble move, but I think it unfairly targets the weapons it is most effective in without offering any punishment on any other weapon. I'm not arguing with the decsion, only giving my opinion on what I see. I'll honestly have to see how Banshee works with Extended before I can pass judgement on whether or not it's still as viable at the ranges it used to be. It certainly means that a gunner will be swapping between lesmok and greased more often in gats, and that the Hades will see a resurgence, but I'm still not quite sure as of yet.
And Red, what do you propose they do? As I've said, there's only so much you can add where Guns is right now. The last ship that properly was added to Goio was the Mobula, as I still hold that Alliance and Skirmish should have been kept seperate. They can't effectively plan for what GoIO needs, especially since there's only so much they can add. In fact, I think keeping the two games seperate might have helped in that regard, as you could, effectively, have the Alliance side having 12 ships. 12! More than the bast game, and plenty to work and level for. And on the GoIO side, keep working on updates for maps, ships, and possible weapons. Alliance they can have the 12 and be done with it, let people grind themselves against it for a while, and take a break from AI fights to play with the tried and true ships, and then look forward to the updates that are in the pipe.
The introduction of the Alliance content is one thing I'm still highly against. We saw the utter and complete chaos of the Tempest when it was introduced blank and clean, a move I have the sneaking suspicion was the devs punishing the community screaming for the content to be ported over. But that simply goes right back to the lack of solid and defined planning, and I'd rather not talk in circles.
The only thing that can bring the numbers back up would be new updates, and I can see that the Council is trying. Desperately. They did introduce the Nemesis, the first new gun (Not imported) for years. The last weapon introduced, from what I've been able to mine out, was the Minotaur, a gun better left collecting rust than actually used in its current state. The council is trying, but there's not enough they can do without a significant, dedicated, specific plan for future updates in place. That's what is needed more than anything. Community updates need to come out at regular intervals, just as Muse updates need to come out just as regularly.
If you want to boost the numbers, that's the only way I can see. Neither of them seem to have that in place.
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What we have in another hand, do greased hades and lumberjack still work? Anyone who can spam it from 500 meters to galleon/spire please raise hand.
"Well! Do things still work like they used to?"
Read the title.
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But why only affect jitter-limited guns? And why such a high value of 90%? This makes guns which aren't significantly jitter limited but still have jitter, like mortar and Lflak, jitter limitted, while affecting jitter-limited guns like Gat and Banshee to an extreme degree
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Well, here's a counter to that; how would incresed drop really affect the Gatling, which has no drop, or the Banshee, which has the same issue.
Increased drop wouldn't really even phase these two.
Slower travel speed with the same projectile life doesn't really touch the gatling, or even the banshee. You can adjust as you fire due to the large clip, and have much more time to lead the shots a little bit better. Those suggestions kind of remove what the greased changes were supposed to do, vary what's used in the guns.
Jitter.... is kind of the only way to do that. I think it could have used a small boost either to ammo or to fire rate to make up for it, considering how wild the weapon is now, and at close range, where it's supposed to be used, ROF up would make it very strong and effective, meanwhile ammo up would compensate for lost shots at range.
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Well, here's a counter to that; how would incresed drop really affect the Gatling, which has no drop, or the Banshee, which has the same issue.
Exactly... So why make a change that only affects half the guns? If jitter, drop, and speed were all changed then it would affect all guns. It's not elegant but is more balanced than an extreme jitter value
Another discussion I remember was reducing ROF or DMG. That kills its use in light carro and Lflak and doesn't effect Gat much due it its high clip and very slow empty time. Jitter is a great solution for Gat but I would've never guessed the end result of 90% and nothing else
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The change for only half the guns are the half of the guns that greased is used exclusively in. Sure, you can use Heatsink(old) and have a somewhat higher DPC, but you want DPS, not DPC. Sure, you could use Heavy, and scatter some component sniping in there, but you want DPS, not component sniping. You could use Incen (blegh), get some fires stacked on, but you're doing so little DPS.
That's why Greased. Just spam it into the enemy and they'll drop eventually. No point in using any other ammo.
Other weapons have other choices, where very few would be considered "unworthy". Charged can find a place on most weapons, even if underused. Loch easily finds a place on other weapons, though not on some. Lesmok, I need not talk about, it's a standard. Heatsink(old) can find a place anywhere. Incen is useable on a good majority of light weapons. Heavy can be used on some specifically, and situationally on others.
The overall idea as I can see it was to encourage utilizing other ammo types in weapons Greased was used specifically. Do I agree with it? Only slightly, as they didn't give anything to compensate with the drastically increased jitter. For what they wanted, an incredibly close range weapon designed for max dps, I would have given it higher ROF, to futher incentivize use at CQC.
Until Extended comes through, I can't really pass judgement on whether or not there's a replacement for what greased did.
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I use Greased exclusively in Hades and Lumber. The only times I bring those guns are with greased because they're so freaking good. Buff engi with spanner mallet buff greased. I'm still as overpowered as ever
Why not set a minimum jitter value for greased: loading greased makes its value at least 3 for example (guns with higher jitter wouldn't be affected and they don't matter anyways). All guns are now jitter limited at further ranges and Gat has 30% increased jitter - a value that was originally generally agreed upon
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Here's the issue with that; Controlled fire. An LJ wouldn't really feel the jitter addition, because it's such a slow weapon and you can so easily adjust.
Hades would feel it for those rapid shots, and would be a balancing factor, I concur. But 30% was said to be 'unnoticable', hence the absurdly high amount.
If you're going to give it a base jitter, I'd go more for 5, honestly. That'd be felt very hard on Gat and Banshee, and potentially on other weapons as well. However, I would balance that with a little more on both clip and rate of fire to compensate. At CQC, greased would still be king. At mid range, Greased could be used, but would be difficult to use effectively.
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Jitter can't be adjusted for because it's random and 5 deg jitter is equal to light carronade
Jitter radius = tan (jitter deg) * range
Lumber would be one of the most affected guns by base jitter due to its long effective range of around 500m against the ships its good against. At 500m with 3 deg the jitter radius is 26m, which means you can aim dead center on a Spire and might miss. At 5 deg it would be 44m - you could aim anywhere on a Galleon's broadside and miss
"Unnoticeable" is a terrible metric because it's difficult to estimate true accuracy. If you're aiming at the lower front of a Pyra at 300m with a Gat and compare 3 deg vs 2.25 deg jitter, you won't notice much difference but in reality the 29% higher jitter increases the jitter radius by 33%. Even a change of 1 in 10 shots that would've hit armor and now hitting components, balloon, or missing is critical. That's unnoticeable from your perspective but very significant
Maybe a base of 3 deg is too long-ranged for some tastes. At 4 deg you've increased the radius at 300m by 78%. At 5 deg it's +122%
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For reference, thanks to Richard
See bottom right legend
(http://i.imgur.com/04vIio8.png)
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That was the original point, to reduce Greased's effectiveness at range, so it does make sense. But what we have now will have to be plaed through to see what the overall reaction is. See how the meta redevelopes around new greased, and see if it needs changing.
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We know exactly how greased affects guns. I for one already made the swap to greased Hades on every build that doesn't require the horizontal arcs, and let me tell you that dealing the same DPS as regular Gat with better accuracy and fires and hull damage and a burst radius is pretty great! (and just as OP as ever ;) )
Here's a rough representation of regular vs greased at 300m - which is 83% of its max range. The new range at which it's as effective as regular at 300m is now 150m
(http://i.imgur.com/75QQe3B.png)
Ha! Good luck getting that close with your greased Gat against greased Hades :P
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Reminder: Dev App tests are not accurate. "Getting a feel" can be useful for simple things like arc changes, but is otherwise useless unless you test accurately. Here's the bare minimum of an acceptable test of greased vs greased +30% jitter. Note: to be proper it requires A/B testing (double blind, recorded from all POVs, many rounds etc), and even then it's never better than running the numbers!
Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships
If this kind of test is too difficult or time consuming then don't test at all! Without testing you end up with biased results like "the 33% larger radius was unnoticeable". Inaccurate tests yield false results... and lead to +90% jitter :'(
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Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships
If this kind of test is too difficult or time consuming then don't test at all!
+1
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Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships
If this kind of test is too difficult or time consuming then don't test at all! Without testing you end up with biased results like "the 33% larger radius was unnoticeable". Inaccurate tests yield false results... and lead to +90% jitter :'(
Except, we did those sorts of tests with practice dummies to get the range/spread/damage down. +33% was unnoticeable.
But even then, such a test wouldn't be that valuable, as the game is not played with two stationary ships only firing one gun while aiming at the same point at each other. Such a controlled test doesn't really hold up because it does not emulate in-game conditions. in an in-game battle conditions, +33% jitter was unnoticed by all testers.
If you want to test, then get in the testing group and test. Then offer feedback on the tests. Don't decry the changes after they've gone in. Greased gat beats out greased hades at eyeball-to-eyeball range. Charged gat roughtly matches greased hades at mid-range. Different ammos for different situations on different guns. It's disingenuous to expect the gatling, a close-range gun, to perform the same as the hades, a mid-range gun in all situations.
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I'm intrigued! So you tested greased vs greased+ against target dummies and counted the shots/time to break armor? What were the results? And like I said, that's the minimum necessary test to get a baseline of performance. You should absolutely try more tests at different speeds and even simulate combat. Gotta say though, I've witnessed Dev App combat tests in the past and was not impressed. They're only accurate when everyone has rules how to shoot and repair, otherwise they're...not accurate. A simple mistake can mean a 30% difference in time to break armor
Unfortunately I'm often not available Saturday to assist, and if I was I'm not sure how much help I could be. When I participated in the past it was more of a free-for-all and I didn't find it useful. If I was around last time I'd swear to you guys that I could actually tell the difference between between a 78% larger circle, and that answer would be be no more useful than "unnoticeable"
The issue is "unnoticeable". What does that mean? Does it mean less than 10% DPS/C (or DPC) difference? Because I roughly estimate (using the the "eye" method) greased+ at 300m deals ~+ -20% DPS/C when aiming at a straight-ahead Pyra. The jitter area is a whopping 78% larger...
Hmmm... if only there were numbers....
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Unnoticeable, as not much change in value at most ranges while in combat.
If you want exact values, here ya go.
(http://i.imgur.com/S0wa6oq.jpg)
I see no issues here. Greased is behaving exactly as expected.
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Thanks Richard, so we see 36% of shots missed with regular ammo at 300m, which roughly equated to greased at 165m. The actual values are 300m regular = 157m greased, so this real-world test is very close (and luckily near the exact breaking point!). With greased+30% that would be 224m, which is 38% less than max range. This example isn't the whole story of course because the opponent is repairing and greased deals 1039 armor damage per clip (Galleon is 800 armor). This particular test would be closer to that of a Spire in combat (armor = 400 + mallet)
Greased90 reduces range in this scenario by 48% and Greased30 by 25%. The downside of +90% of course is all the side effects (and lack thereof). A light carro at 200m (77% max range) is reduced to just 103m. Other powerful guns, Hades and LJ, are unaffected
I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!
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I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!
This issue isn't OPness strictly by the numbers, the issue is greased was OP enough to overshadow other ammos on nearly all guns. Greased was the omni-ammo to use at medium and close range. Making its role more distinct (crazy dps at very close range) allows other ammo, such as heavy or charged, to become viable options at mid range. Also, it's worth pointing out, that while greased is less effective at medium range, it is more effective at close range.
You do have a point about the hades an it's interaction with greased. In testing I was of the opinion for some mechanism to add jitter, but due to technical barriers with the code and the high-skill-floor of the hades and lumberjack, adding jitter at the time would make those guns very frustrating to use. From what I understood, those guns have to have a base jitter value for greased to apply, and adding a jitter value would make them terribly inaccurate at long range and cut the skill factor immensely. But, before we can start re-balancing those powerful guns we need to get the ammos balanced into distinct roles too.
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Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships
we did those sorts of tests with practice dummies to get the range/spread/damage down. +33% was unnoticeable.
the game is not played with two stationary ships only firing one gun while aiming at the same point at each other. in an in-game battle conditions, +33% jitter was unnoticed by all testers.
Also +1
Its called controlled and field tests. Need both.
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Just want remind, month pass, still no any move to limit use greased rounds in hades/lumberjack.
And remember one thing, this "OP" greased gatling/banshee was most novice friendly built. Level 1 gunner without basic training join your ship, with shit rounds set, mallet and rangefinder, you give him engeneer loadout with only greased to prevent random rounds using, say him stay here, fix your gun and what around it, try to shoot enemy, not ally. And it work, a many times, but never looks any OP for me.
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This was never about Greased being OP. It was about Greased being ONLY. Gatling is perfectly fine with just standard rounds. Greased far overshadowed all the other rounds, making it a one ammo gun. There was rarely any reason to bring anything else. Greased was standard ammo. Load it in and forget about it.
It is not standard ammo in Hades and Lumberjack. Normal also plays its part, along with several other ammos. They have a meta set of ammo, instead of just one meta ammo.
I hope that explains the change.
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This exclusively using only in your mind. Players use different rounds for gatling for different situation. Lesmok gatling on side of 4-hwacha galleon, for shoot shiр which will not charge for you. Lesmok gatling on fore of minotaur spire, when you try to keep enemy on distance in any price. Double lesmok gatlings for heavy flak spire, same for mortar-double gatlings mobula. Some strange people prefer use heavy for break junker armor many time before, can't agree with it, but still. A little less strange like snipe guns with heavy, not you invented it in the one of last patch, it was exist before. A gunner for gatling gun on gat\artemys and gat\banshee pyramidion with full rounds complect, i am personally preferred this. Oh and of course lochnagar gatling, what a lot of time which has long been trying to balance in dev aps right now, if it not exist why do something with it. "Load it in and forget about it" - again no, smart people always know when switch for normal rounds to have possibility shoot far then 360 m. Do we play different games? If players prefer greased for brawler build or counter brawler build it only choice, do you need explain why they do this?
Now charged can partially take the place of lesmok on gatling, it good. Break greased if people take it too much not.
BlackenedPies say a lot here to show what happens in frontal attack hades vs. greased.If greased have problem with too much dps at all, let's solve it for all gun.
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This was never about Greased being OP. It was about Greased being ONLY. Gatling is perfectly fine with just standard rounds. Greased far overshadowed all the other rounds, making it a one ammo gun. There was rarely any reason to bring anything else. Greased was standard ammo. Load it in and forget about it.
It is not standard ammo in Hades and Lumberjack. Normal also plays its part, along with several other ammos. They have a meta set of ammo, instead of just one meta ammo.
Greased is the standard ammo in Hades and Lumber at closer than lesmok range. I believe I've seen you, Richard, use greased exclusively for Engi Hades on Junker, Mobula, and Pyra. Likewise, you don't bring greased for Gat if you plan on mostly engaging at further ranges. Closing range with high DPS guns often isn't difficult, and the effective range of greased helps facilitate this
-20% range for +15% DPS is a great tradeoff
Being a standard ammo isn't reason to change it. Ammos all have a standard use depending on gun function (scatter = heavy, low clip = charged etc.). Greased is ubiquitous because it's powerful without drawback for many guns because these guns function similarly (and are simpler to design). In addition, it has the added benefit of reducing arm range which opens up its use to more guns. It's effective range is too far, and that's a good reason to change it, but +90% jitter does more harm than good
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Honestly? Just have two ammo types.
Split the new Greased and bring back a modified old Greased, the same suggestion that was made for Old Loch and New Loch.
Give Greased a slower projectile speed and reduce it's range for a lesser negative to damage, and make a new ammo with the 90% jitter and a massive fire rate.
It covers both sides, an ammo for extreme close range and a monster DPS, and a mid-range replacement for somewhat higher DPS, but for a less efficient shooting experience.
Honestly, that would help Gunners a bit, giving them even more to choose from.
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I personally often recommend Heatsink and Lochnagar over Greased for my gunners on Hades and Lumberjack. Rarely do I need Greased on any of my guns. I had it sometimes for the Gatling though, especially if the gunner had to use Hades and Gatling on the same ship.
I would personally say that Greased Gat's range was a bit too forgiving for the gains it had, but I hadn't tested current Greased Gat too much so I wouldn't know if the jitter increase was too big. Carronades always had trouble with jitter and if you don't bring Heavy or Inc in special cases then you might as well not bring the Carronade at all. Greased Banshee used to be able to still hit relatively easily at its maximum range, so I am not against Greased increasing jitter. Is it too much jitter? For some guns it is, for some guns it isn't. Change jitter on Greased to 50% or change jitter on guns? +50% jitter on a gun with 2 deg jitter is a total of 3 deg of jitter, is that a lot? Does it make a significant difference? I don't mind seeing it in dev app after the upcoming patch.
I personally haven't seen most people complaining about the changes here in the dev app testing sessions, so I don't think arguing against the testing process is justified. Constructive feedback to help it get better I won't argue against, but don't be against it unless you tested the testing process. In my opinion, what we got here is also better than what the Muse developers themselves have given us.
I am a bit biased towards the current testing process, because I have seen this game sit in a state of "Why are the devs doing what they are doing?" "Are they listening to feedback?" "Does Eric play the game?" for a solid 4 years now. How long did it take for the Mobula to be nerfed? Remember the seemingly out of nowhere Spire nerf? Pyramidion is still suffering from its first nerf a few years back. Had it not been for the testing sessions, then the Heavy Carronade would still have no arc in any direction and Heavy Clip would very likely still be worthless on all guns. The current way of getting changes into the game feels much more active and much less random despite the lack of professional testers, which one could argue Muse should provide.
Got objections to changes in dev app? Voice them, there is a dev app section on the forum, you have the trello, you have Discord for more active discussions, email and even surveys for each test session are being set-up for more organizsed feedback gathering.
Want changes brought in to dev app like for example testing +50% jitter increase on Greased isntead of +90%? Voice them?
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Let me say how i remember this month(MONTH!) of testing. Some veterans full crew keep stacking all time on magnate with lubmber\hades\artemis\hwacha\gat\banshee, making all lobby dance around it, most time without full crew and well, in general, you understand. Do then found magnate need much low turning speed and speed what testing now (or not more testing by this crew). Not, i think the found they good in shooting long range meta. The second most popular was laser fight, ok at least here we don't pass completely unbalance thing in main game. I even remember stacking team full crew meta mobula + meta galleon against gat-flak junker on dunes, with a predictable result, i thing we found from this match artemis still work good with 4 burst rounds in clip. Oh, i almost forgot one match 1 vs 1 gat-mortar pyra both side for teasting new greased, we found it still able kill each other very quick.
Do i say in testing lobby it greased rounds change is bullshit. Wrote this in the questionnaire. Yes. All time i hear answer from Richard its meta, its OP, its must be nerf.
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Players choosing bad stuff to test with and against is a problem with the players. During the testing for the H. Carronade buff people brought almost only Blenderfish, and who would have guessed, the second fastest ship with a heavy gun on the front was almost unchanged by the Heavy Carronade buff, because the ship was fast enough to make up for the gun's weaknesses.
I am not happy either about people bringing bad stuff for the tests or that we don't have enough interested vet players able to play during testing sessions to make for well balanced lobbies. We could complain to the developers for not joining the tests at all and help us play with the stuff, but I think we all know that they would send maybe one Muse person, aside from Inkjet who already organizes half of the testing, that would just sit in spectator mode and barely says anything, at best.
We can only try as a community to make the tests as accurate as possible. If there is a guy or stack screwing up the results, well, that's why we have multiple days and weeks of testing.
It would be interesting though to see the final results of the surveys of how many voted for and against a change in dev app, anonymously of course.
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I think you are remembering wrong, Long Max. I don't believe I ever said Greased was OP. Meta and overused, yes. This is the same thing most of the testers said. If you were around when +jitter was first suggested, you would remember I was vehemently against it.
final week of Greased testing.
(http://i.imgur.com/paGPmyk.jpg)
I will look into a better way of allowing access to the data without giving away anonymity. We collect names for the items so it shows up to anyone that has access. One of the two 'weak' responses said it was weak, but in a good way.
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Yes, Richard, maybe not all this word, maybe not you. Maybe it officially approved reason of testing changes. But if reason only is people overused it and it not really unbalanced - do it like pyramidion changes? Undo one year later and call it great success. The question is do this game have one more year for it.