GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2

[Ofiach]

Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue).

Smoke two in the morning..... ?

Your understanding of mechanics is just plain wrong, or you're trolling me, or (and I'm hoping this is the case) english isn't a strong language for you and you have misstated this. Heavy Clip on a LumberJack, does absolutely nothing, wait sorry it actually makes the gun a little worse. Bullet deviation does not happen with a Lumberjack unless your pilot is diddling the wheel for fun.

Making an assumption here but. Don't just listen to the stream and think you know how it works, Qwerty is wrong on ammo types ALOT heavy for an artemis, heavy for a mortar, etc etc. he's fun to listen to but he needs to brush up on some of the mechanics.

Also... A pyri is too slow to dodge a hwacha barrage??? If the guy is past 500 meters hes gonna miss and I won't have to use chute or hydro. The galleon might have to but the hwacha does no damage to the balloon so who cares if you chute vent or hydro out of the way?

A gat can kill a goldfishes front gun and it's hull armor with one heavy clip??? Seriously *looks around* wheres the camera for this episode of punk'd.

Mattilald are you even playing the same game?

[Jerzayl]

I have issue with the Manticore.  The thought that it doesn't do a lot of hull damage seems false to me.  You can take out a galleon in three shots, the first shot having disabled most if not every component (guns, engines), leaving any ship crippled right off the bat.  Then it's just a waiting game on reloads.  A single person using the spanner on a component will have about 1 second before the next Manticore hit lands.

If anything, I'd want the manticore to do next to no damage to the hull as it is already such a disability powerhouse.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue).

Smoke two in the morning..... ?

Your understanding of mechanics is just plain wrong, or you're trolling me, or (and I'm hoping this is the case) english isn't a strong language for you and you have misstated this. Heavy Clip on a LumberJack, does absolutely nothing, wait sorry it actually makes the gun a little worse. Bullet deviation does not happen with a Lumberjack unless your pilot is diddling the wheel for fun.

Making an assumption here but. Don't just listen to the stream and think you know how it works, Qwerty is wrong on ammo types ALOT heavy for an artemis, heavy for a mortar, etc etc. he's fun to listen to but he needs to brush up on some of the mechanics.

Also... A pyri is too slow to dodge a hwacha barrage??? If the guy is past 500 meters hes gonna miss and I won't have to use chute or hydro. The galleon might have to but the hwacha does no damage to the balloon so who cares if you chute vent or hydro out of the way?

A gat can kill a goldfishes front gun and it's hull armor with one heavy clip??? Seriously *looks around* wheres the camera for this episode of punk'd.

Mattilald are you even playing the same game?

I'm not sure witch game YOU've been playing. I've not been not only watching stream (and ussualy I'm one of the people correcting qwerty and swallow) but I have streamed on a Tournament and COGs matches. The game streamed is the one I've been sinking most of my time into when it comes gaming.

I can generaly hit 55-60 shots per clip with gatling. Unless I fuck up marojrly, I take out Armor and the main gun on the Goldfish while using heavy clip (gatling has then practicaly 0 spread).

Typhoon and LJ have simmilar spread without any ammo. Like all weapons (with exception of Scyla witch has had it's spread removed 1.2) LJ and Typhoon have spread, not as much as hawacha, but it has. Heavy does not make spread worse on any weapon -by experience and definition. Yes it decreases the maximim range, but that is generally worth it for better accuracy or just becouse enemy is within your arming time (goes for both flak and LJ).

Pyra has ALL acerelation very slow. I've been practicing a lot on dodging hwacha barrages on pyra - and it is imposible agains good gunners without the use of propper tools. Good Hwacha gunner will dissable your stuff even when having you are hiding in a cloud and they are tracking your movement without sight or spot marker. Heavy clip makea an incredible diffirence in hawacha's spread. You don't have to kill the baloon with hawacha, you can simply kill the LJ or Typhoon enemy has - or at least up to 800 range. 1000 range will apparently still hit hard, but will have harder time destroying specific components.

[Machiavelliest]

If you want to slap-fight about who is more betterest when play game, do it elsewhere.  Please focus on the relevant content in your posts.

I'm going to bring up the weird turning and firing mechanics again, because the physics seem wrong and counterintuitive.  Since the weapons caster freely in their turning arcs, it really should only be the linear velocity of the gun emplacement in space that's transferred to the projectile.  Putting a little turn in shouldn't cause a Mercury to start firing like it's bent 10 degrees one way or the other.

[Ofiach]

Face -> Desk over and over.

Heavy clip in a lumberjack is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard... I'm just saying if you don't understand the basics of a gun how can you make an informed opinion of it?

Jesus how can you even post when you don't understand the simplest of game mechanics. The lumberjack has 0 bullet deviation, heavy clip does absolutely nothing to the gun.  No wait IT SLOWS THE BULLET DOWN, making it worse. Your previous replies I tried to ignore such as an all flamer squid being the ultimate counter to galleons  .

I'm specifically talking about this gun and you don't have the foggiest idea of what ammo to use on it. At the risk of sounding repetitive how the hell can you make a post about a gun when you don't even understand how it works?

@ machiavellist you're right the topic did get derailed but that's what happens with goonswarm tactics, anything to change the focus.

[N-Sunderland]

Let's keep the discussion here civil, people.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

@Machevialist: We'd have to actualy see the numbers crunched in the background for each specific shot fired while turning to be able to see whitch vector was used in the calculation of the bullet's vector at the start of it's arc. I'm not sure it does inherit angular velocity - it could be just the sideways direction of the gun mount when the ship is turning. But I could be wrong, this has long been cousing me problems won balistic weapons while turning.

[maitreya]

It has probably already been brought up, but it's still a minor peeve to me, why does the flak gun have twin enormous visual clips on it, with such a tiny actual clip. I'm not greatly bothered by the mechanics of it presently, just the giant wing-looking clips. Also I'll second that the carousel is almost useless in most situations and the artemis could use a little tweaking.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Light flak was probably intended to have a larger clip originaly - just guesing tho. With the exception of vertical turning arc, artemis is perfectly ok, as for banshee I agree that it is more nuisance than anything else. For a short while after previous patch (or was it 1.1.4 i don't even remember anymore) banshee ws broken and was moonsineing with junker with 5 banshees and it was glorious ^^.

[Captain Smollett]

I think the Artemis could use it's vertical turning arc back, it's turning speed increased slightly, longer range for standard ammo and its pre nerf zoom back.

The big problems with the original 1.2 Artemis were with how it's velocity paired with it's AOE shatter damage ammo and rate of fire created an unrepairable gun and engine lock from any range, any angle and at any skill level.

I think the changes to velocity and AOE combined with the change in rate of fire and reload more than addressed those issues.  The rest of the changes seemed like overkill.

[Machiavelliest]

It's pretty easy to see how angular velocity is inherited.  Get on a gat on a Squid, then have the pilot turn left, then switch right.  You'll see that you have to do the opposite of lead a target when turning (lag, I guess).  Bullets inherit the velocity of the ship.  For example, if you're firing off the side of a moving Squid, without drag, the bullet will hit as if the Squid were motionless, provided there's not massive acceleration (which refers to both getting faster and getting slower).

It seems like the algorithm translates the angular velocity of the ship into a sideways vector for the projectile/ray.  However, simply turning a ship doesn't make a gun that casters freely suddenly wing its shots off in the same direction as the ships rotation, and certainly doesn't make the projectile fire further in the direction of rotation than the gun is pointing when the projectile leaves the barrel.  This also appears to be similarly true for climbs/descents while firing.  Again, you should never have to lag a target.

[Watchmaker]

Projectiles inherit the linear velocity of their gun's mount point.  That is all. (or, at least, that should be all...)

[RearAdmiralZill]

Face -> Desk over and over.

Heavy clip in a lumberjack is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard... I'm just saying if you don't understand the basics of a gun how can you make an informed opinion of it?

Jesus how can you even post when you don't understand the simplest of game mechanics. The lumberjack has 0 bullet deviation, heavy clip does absolutely nothing to the gun.  No wait IT SLOWS THE BULLET DOWN, making it worse. Your previous replies I tried to ignore such as an all flamer squid being the ultimate counter to galleons  .

I'm specifically talking about this gun and you don't have the foggiest idea of what ammo to use on it. At the risk of sounding repetitive how the hell can you make a post about a gun when you don't even understand how it works?

@ machiavellist you're right the topic did get derailed but that's what happens with goonswarm tactics, anything to change the focus.

Well if you are willing to have a civil discussion on the Lumberjack I will gladly oblige now that I am back from vacation. I've read all the arguments but it seemed to of gotten skewed after awkm responded.

Heavy IS good for one thing in a Lumberjack, and that is to slow the projectile, thus decreasing the max range of the arming time. It's best when you do have someone charging at you. No ammo will fully eliminate the arming time, but ones that slow projectile speed will decrease it in your favor.
 

[awkm]

Lumberjack OPness

Okay, so some people think the LJ is OP.  Some even said that it takes very few hits to destroy the hull with damage overflow.  I just did isolated tests.  Number of hits required to destroy any ship with or without balloon is in accordance with my calculations.  Although Flechette against Hull is 20% effective... an LJ shot against Hull is a total of 65 dmg (50 Shatter * 0.1 + 300 Flechette * 0.2 = 65). 

Players who have claimed that it takes less hits must be attacking a damaged ship... or there is a more serious bug at play but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Carronade Pitch Degrees

The two choices were to have them shoot up or down.  Down seems like the most sense.  I want to keep them down, duh.  However, an increase to downward pitch ended up being quite OP under my own tests.  I have thought and tested this.  It allowed the carronade ship to be very very close and almost right on top of the victim.  Even if the victim managed to hydrogen up, the carronade ship would be able to maintain firing arc very easily.

Artemis Zoom, Yaw Speed, Pitch Degrees

I want to wait a little longer to gather more data.  The same goes for carronades as well.  Needs more time to stew.

Something else will be OP to take your mind off of these changes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

[Captain Smollett]

Would it be possible to make it so the Carronade can only aim down, but not farther than it used to?