Author Topic: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm  (Read 18815 times)

Offline nhbearit

  • Member
  • Salutes: 27
    • [Duck]
    • 17 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2015, 08:24:45 pm »
I'd prefer to see a pyra with some crazy max speed rather than acceleration. I'm not particularly interested in making it more viable as in balance in competitive games. I'd prefer to see something that makes the 'how to use that ship' tricky. And viable in a very odd way. That's what makes mines so much fun. It's more important to make ships more fun. No?

No. It's important to make the GAME more fun. Aside from the fact that on the vast majority of maps, the Pyra can't reliably get up to speed in the first place; It's currently so easy to kill it's silly. Sidenote: did you know that a Buffed Loch H Flak can 1 shot a Pyra even if it's armor's up. If the armor's low enough for the Direct damage of the Flak to finish it off (I think was about a fifth-sixth) the Burst damage is enough to outright kill it. It's actually pretty fun both to do, and to see get done. From there, the Pyra is one of basically two ships that someone new to the game can use well. and.. it's a non-ship, at this point, it's little more than a target dummy. The people who have been most effected by the Pyra's ridiculous nerf, are newer players. It's supposed to be an "easy" ship to fly, but it's simply too slow to react to input. It needs the increased acceleration simply to be viable to actually learn on, let alone brought to a serious match. And you know what? The Pyra was never THAT overpowered.

Sure it was easy and teams could, and did, actually bring them. But at the end of the day, they were still some of the easiest ships to kill, mostly because they were all hull. The biggest issue with them was that they were a bit too nimble.. that's it. That's hardly a good enough reason to nerf it to the point where you can't seriously bring it into a competitive match. And suggesting turning it into the "Mine Launcher" of ships.. is just insane. That gun is only "fun" for people who can actually use it, *newsflash* that is not the majority of players who startup this game. With only seven ships total, it's also not a thing we can afford to even consider.

Offline Daft Loon

  • Member
  • Salutes: 47
    • [◕_◕]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2015, 09:02:13 pm »
The past few months that I've been watching various competitive events I've seen the pyramidion far more often and more successfully used than the spire. I don't think 'target dummy' is accurate.
There is the question though - if the pyramidion nerf was reversed even completely would we see the all pyramidion meta (which i despised and was happy to see die) return? or have enough people started using other ships to avoid that?

Offline Dementio

  • Member
  • Salutes: 134
    • [Rydr]
    • 43 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2015, 09:24:38 pm »
There is the question though - if the pyramidion nerf was reversed even completely would we see the all pyramidion meta (which i despised and was happy to see die) return? or have enough people started using other ships to avoid that?

I think at this point people in comp have figured out that Pyramidions die against everything, ner for not, Mobula rules, lion gun op. Double Pyramidion in general, however, may not be something teams will be that afraid of using again.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2015, 10:58:32 pm »
The Pyra was never billed as a ramming ship until the community defined it that based on it's appearance. With the pointed bow and the knife on the front. In original 1.0-1.1 it was a multirole ship. It could ram yes but ramming was no where near as effective as keeping it's guns on target. The Goldfish back then was more of the rammer. Course with the flak as powerful as it was, two solid cracks + a ram would easily tear a ship in half.

If competitive events have been seeing Pyras used successfully then those aren't competitive events. You take a pyra against any ship in the game right now and there is just no way it will survive a 1v1 let alone 2v2 situations. They are just liabilities. Unless of course you want foes for focus fire on it but then it really has no tank ability anymore so I dunno why you'd want that.

And I can agree that the most effected players are the noobs because thats all they really have to fly. It was a good all arounder for that purpose. When it had ram ability it at least had something noobs could enjoy but with it folding up like a used tissue...ehh. Give the squid the used tissue with more speed and agility and take the Pyra back = win win.

Offline Schwalbe

  • Member
  • Salutes: 177
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2015, 09:48:59 am »
My modest thoughts on hwacha:

I liked it much more before the buff; it required two types of rounds, for long range sniping (I was able to snipe the fuck out of enemies barely seeing the model in my prime with heavy) and wrecking shit when in close - and it felt good. Also the tension and requirements of being patient, knowing the moment when to shoot it to get most of the barrage, because of the reload time long af. And despite all of this it was quite a low-access heavy weapon for new people, but with a great potential to master.

Now it... just is. Boring. The only reason why gunner is still needed (more or less) for this gun is stamina reloading. The only viable ammo is burst, now used for "sniping" shit in mid-distance if you have a hand to it - and that is absolutely fucking prepostrous.


About pyra.
This nerf was far too strong in my taste - saying that from the perspective of a bad pub player. Before nerfing a bottom engie could sometimes leave armour for few seconds to fire the side gun, after the nerf - the only time I was able to do so (or any of my friends who knew what was doing) without letting the sodding ship die in those seconds was... no, I believe it never happened. Although as a bad pilot I must say that acceleration nerf... I felt it to be both good and bad. As shite I was able to steer it because of that, but it prevented me from getting to my target on time/run the hell outta being surrounded many times.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 135
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 23 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2015, 09:01:12 pm »
As someone said - if there is no serious suggestion on how to fix pyra then increasing the top speed by small amount would be a start. On the other hand I'm afraid that Muse will never find enough time to actually test those things through.

Usage stats may give us a clue about the validity of specific ships but... not quite. Many new players are using microscope to drive a nail and that's why for instance squid usage was low. If noobs were taking it and ramming with it and crew had problems with keeping up to repairs it doesn't already mean that it's a bad or non-viable ship. Now we have this thing called veteran matches, so it's a great opportunity to see how usage rates look like in more veteran-ish environment.

But that wasn't the case with pyramidion. We have seen that it completely dominated the competetive scene, so SOME action was necessary. The question is whether Muse is thinking that something is broken and needs fixing, because they can think otherwise. They may claim that usage dropped to the acceptable level and that's it, even if most (if not all) vets admit that pyra is competetivelly invalid.

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2015, 12:41:58 am »
On the subject of the hwacha and heavy clip nerf:

When I suggested the nerf to Heavy clip and gave a very detailed explanation why, it was not a standalone suggestion. Heavy clip nerf (which was sorely needed) was suggested to be tested alongside the new stamina system. I did not like, and still do not like the way gunner stamina works. So, I made a suggestion to nerf heavy clip by a certain percent (I started at 90%, which was not enough), but make gunner stamina also reduce recoil. The combined heavy + stamina would have removed most if not all recoil. Instead, the choice made was to remove the need for Heavy by reducing the recoil by 2 degrees, something that I don't recall seeing in testing. I don't know if it was added last second, or if I just missed it in testing.

Offline Schwalbe

  • Member
  • Salutes: 177
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2015, 04:11:57 am »
Instead, the choice made was to remove the need for Heavy by reducing the recoil by 2 degrees, something that I don't recall seeing in testing.

Why the hell am I even surprised.

Yeeeeaaaaah, maybe it was needed. What I'm saying is, that they dumbed one of my favourite weapons to shoot. Hence I may be biased on that topic.

Offline FranckM

  • Member
  • Salutes: 2
    • [TB]
    • 30 
    • 45
    • 10 
    • View Profile
Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2015, 11:29:10 am »
Muse members have gone around asking for feedback. They get many different opinions and as Muse says: it takes us 6 months to implement changes.

Just curious does it take 6 months to get feedback or 6 months to get the changes applied in-game.