Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Urz on October 05, 2015, 09:00:14 am
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From last Friday's dev chat:
http://www.twitch.tv/gunsoficarus/v/18801561?t=50m9s
This man is in charge of game balance.
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Haha - I wouldn't take the comments on Pyra and Hwacha too seriously, however the minotaur comments are quite interesting - they need to be careful with it since I have taken it out 4 times so far, and in the lobby afterwards I have been told "minotaur OP" "turny gun OP". So it clearly does its job, however its use is limited due to how little damage it does. If it could damage components such as engines it would be nice to use and something I would take more seriously. Additionally it is nice and balanced imo against spire, mobula, galleon etc but it needs to be a little better at turning pyras and squids somehow.
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The comments about the Pyra and Hwatcha were sarcastic, I believe.
The Minotaur, meanwhile, is walking a careful line-I'm starting to think the gun may simply be non-viable in the game. This is not at all related to it's actual power.
Nearly every time I take a Minotaur against a pilot who doesn't know how to use Moonshine effectively, I will hear complaining and salt afterword. This is because it (seemingly) denies them the ability to participate in the combat. Even if they break the lock, you'll often hear something about lucky shots, or see people quit during the time they're locked during the engagement.
Carronades and Lumberjacks also have this effect, but not nearly to the extent, because they at least, on their own, promise a kill. The Minotaur offers no such promise.
It reminds of counterspells, or worse, mass-land destruction tactics in Magic the Gathering. For those unfamiliar with the game, Counterspell control is one of the most widely hated archetypes, disproportionate to it's actually effectiveness. Counterspells do exactly what they say-the counter an action, or a spell, effectively preventing another player from taking action. Now, they require careful timing to use effectively, since you're sacrificing your own resources to prevent your opponant from winning, rather than advancing your own victory, but newer players don't see that. They also tend to view getting a spell countered, and getting that same creature removed from the board, even if the outcome is exactly the same.
The other strategy, mass land destruction, relies on destroying both your enemies and your own resources, with the understanding that your deck has been tuned to function under in a resource-poor environment.
Over time, Mass Land destruction has been phased out, and counterspells have been drastically nerfed.
People hate tactics that stop them from playing the game, is my TL:DR.
If the minotaur is to exist in any capacity, and not endure the hatred of newer players much like the flamethrower did, it needs to be severely re-worked, not just have numbers adjusted.
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I wouldn't take the comments on Pyra and Hwacha too seriously
The comments about the Pyra and Hwatcha were sarcastic, I believe.
8 months ago there was a patch which unnecessarily nerfed the Pyramidion and buffed the Hwacha. In the time since, there has been no indication that they are considering fixing the balance of those two items.
Pub games turn into drawn-out disable nightmares with Hwachas on both sides. I find the dynamic of those matches to be extremely unfun, and it has slowed the pace of the pub metagame in a detrimental way.
His statement, presented in awkm's typical dismissive/borderline trolling fashion, falls in line with the (lack of) action they've already taken.
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Pyramideon nerf was absolutely necessary. I hate WOW-style rotating balance patches, but it was waaaay to big a part of the meta. Go look at the Season 2 Aerodrome finals. Three rounds of 3v3 Pyramidion combat.
What probably should have been done it should have been nerfed to it's current state of uselessness to force people to try other ships, and shake the metagame up heavily, then buffed to a in-between point. Six months is a bit excessive, however, but small-dev-team. What can you do? At least it has shaken the metagame. We've got Squids, Mobulas, Spires, and Goldfish in nearly every single competitive tournament/matches. That's a lot more healthy than Pyramideon, and occasionally, Pyra with support ship.
Beats me on the Hwatcha buff. I don't know if it was an accident from the Carronade Nerf, or an intentional thing, but it's pretty annoying.
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awkm lost his razor
I'd argue that squids would be in the meta anyway if pyra wasnt nerfed simply because the rampant presence of Mobulas and Carro nerf which ruined the classic squid and forced people to move onto a more reliable kill build. I think it wouldve been much more satisfying for everyone to take the buffed squid against the old pyra and challenge the age old meta not by nerfing it to oblivion but showing that there's another good ship out there for competitive play, just like the Junker age.
Spires were used fairly often in the buff days due to the hype, but to my knowledge they've only been used twice over the course of roughly 20-25 matches consisting of the first two weeks of Blood and Brass.
Mobula being slightly closer to meta due to the patch only brought it more awareness as to how powerful it was (Mobula OP), and by the time it happened it was too late for the pyra because at the very least a matchup between them was more or less equal with slight favor for the mobula, whilst now its capable for out 1v1ing it everytime.
Goldfishes are cancer right now simply because hwachafish is more popular than ever.
This has been said time and time again since the patch - it's much better to make it so that other ships challenge the old meta than simply kill it and have the high level players look for something else in the ensuing panic.
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You should look up old Hephestus records-I'd link if the forum hadn't been deleted.
Mobula and Junkers *were* brought to finals, but Pyra was still incredibly dominant. I know it's great to talk about how the Meta just hadn't developed appropriate counters, but the usage statistics were hilariously one-sided. Had the nerf hadn't happened, more ships would have been used, but I suspect Pyra would have been a one-of in every team. The question would just be Carrot or Gat/Art, Meta or Hades/Art, or Double Merc. It's strengths were just too glaring. The gimmick of "perfect forward bifecta, hidden balloon, and easy-to-the-point-of-falling asleep repair cycles" add up just subtly enough to push it over the top.
I think a thorough shake-up was in order. People are complacent-not just competitive pilots, as well. The nerf shouldn't have stayed this hard, this long, however.
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Go look at the Season 2 Aerodrome finals. Three rounds of 3v3 Pyramidion combat.
Because the Pyramidion is arguably the best ship for crazy king. Two forward facing guns, which often are Gat/Mortar, which is the most powerful light gun combination when it comes to killing a ship, 3rd fastest ship in the game, which it still is even after the nerf and being easy to crew and pilot all around. Back then, in crazy king a point could be blocked by one ship while three of the enemy ships were inside the point too, so you were required to be able to kill your enemies very quickly to get as many resources of the points as possible.
You can also see in the Aerodrome 2 finals that even I took a Pyramidion instead of my most favourite Mobula or trying to ram with a Galleon or Spire, that is because even I realized that the Pyramidion was the most appropriate ship to take, merely because of its design. And against a team as good as SPQR, I would not have wanted to handicap ourselves with a less appropriate choice.
Nowadays people have noticed Squids can actually kill and that disable is viable with how capturing a point currently works. A Spire and Galleon may still be too slow for stuff like this though.
And when a team actually wants to kill a ship and be at a point quickly, chances are that said team would go triple Pyramidion even now when it is supposedly so weak, because Gatling and Mortar are not weak.
But Crazy King is not Deathmatch and when looking at a ship that looks like the Pyramidion you would expect that ship to have some hull health, which it may deserve. And also some forward speed.
Beats me on the Hwatcha buff. I don't know if it was an accident from the Carronade Nerf, or an intentional thing, but it's pretty annoying.
The Hwacha buff was to compensate for the new heavy clip, since heavy clip Hwacha is so utterly uselss. There was not much testing done on that though, I believe, so burst Hwacha sniping turned out to be a thing.
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I tried to fly gat/mortar squid pre-buff. It worked out alright against pubs, but the stamina and other buffs were needed to push it out of niche use. Pyras could also out-turn it pretty well with Claw.
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I tried to fly gat/mortar squid pre-buff. It worked out alright against pubs, but the stamina and other buffs were needed to push it out of niche use. Pyras could also out-turn it pretty well with Claw.
We're not even talking gat mortar when we say squids can kill. Banshee is a very reliable option and I think it has always worked, much better so than the mortar and it does to this day, still better than mortar. This was also a problem back in Aero days- People thought the only squid that could kill was the insanely unpractical Gat Mortar squid, but I believe the banshee was worse back then and flak still had arming time, so I don't blame the people who were playing back then.
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Does anyone know if Muse ever considered taking on some volunteers from top clans to discuss balance changes? It sounds like it would be a good idea - only issue I can see is that clan leaders would never agree on changes because the sniping teams would vote for buffs to range tactics and vice versa. Maybe take on someone who watches a lot of competitive and has been around for a long time. Just something I am throwing out there.
As for Pyra nerfs, I wasn't around in the closing months of the Pyra age however I showed Newbluud (a newer GOIO player) a series for the classic Sunday Rumble where Pyra would do stupid things with their mobility and we agreed the changes were warranted - however I also believe they were a little strong.
Personally, in the future I would like to see less flat nerfs, and more "buffing the counter to OP stuff" style of balancing, such as "Squid is strong, let's buff Galleon mobility a little", "Hwacha is strong, let's buff Artemis shatter damage a little".
Once again, just throwing this stuff out there - would love to hear some opinions.
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"Make mines more powerful" - Clan Clan Representative, 2015
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I don't think the problem would be that the top players would disagree Hunter. Even if there is a bit of disagreement most top players have consensus positions, especially on the big issues. Even when they disagree on what they want they often agree on the facts, they just disagree on what would be fun or interesting. One team might (as an example) want a spire buff for some reason, and another might want it nerfed, but often they agree on what the consequences of those changes would be, they just have a different ideal meta.
The problem is Muse seem to have minimal interest in optimizing the game for higher level play. In pub games against low level enemies the metamidion is still extremely effective (it also still works in high level play situationally but that is beside the point), all you need to operate it is a decent gungineer, a gunner who fires into the hull, and a pilot who points the ship at a target. Most novices don't repair or shoot efficiently and many, many novice pilots cant design builds or keep guns in arc. Two forward facing light guns are horrifically effective against them if players have just paid attention to the tutorial and know what piercing and explosive damage does.
The metamidion is a first-order optimal strategy in GoI, that is a strategy which is relatively straightforward to pull off and pays off highly. Problem before the nerf was that it wasn't simply first-order optimal, it was just optimal, any fleet composition needed a meta. The nerf fixed one problem but generated at least two more. It made the pyra basically worthless for experienced players most of the time, and it still left a massive skill gap between the meta and the next tier up of ships. Successful operation of a lumber- or blender- fish or a meta-junker or a brawling spire requires a fair chunk more skill than a pyra does. This is part of why vets get frustrated with novices, you cant use a lot of builds because they are just too complicated to explain during a 5 minute lobby timer.
To make the pyra interesting in higher level play it needs a small buff, otherwise only a small number of builds work with it. My worry is that one way to fix the skill gap between the pyra and other ships is to raise the skill required to operate the pyra successfully in low level lobbies, that is nerf the pyra even further. I suspect they will just leave it where it is and the pyra will end up as the noob-tube of GoI. I think that is a shame for what is a potentially very interesting ship.
I just hope for once if things are nerfed or buffed the changes are small. The hwacha isn't crazy overpowered, remove one rocket from it and see how it goes. The pyra isn't stupidly weak, give it 5% more armor or a little extra turning speed and see what happens.
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Does anyone know if Muse ever considered taking on some volunteers from top clans to discuss balance changes?
Once again, just throwing this stuff out there - would love to hear some opinions.
Muse members have gone around asking for feedback. They get many different opinions and as Muse says: it takes us 6 months to implement changes.
Pyra was my most played ship and it needed a nerf. The hull nerf was a good answer but taking away its acceleration was not. Pyra doesn't need hull or turning, and the medium armor and mediocre vertical are fine. What it needs is speed. The pyra is not a ranged ship so it doesn't need hull. It's a close range brawler that relies on speed. Revert the hull and sure it's better in pub matches but not high level play. It needs speed. I'd gladly fly a pyra with 500 hull but not 2.25 m/s^2.
Hwatcha is easier to use and more effective. It should be reverted to the old jitter of 6. Because I'm biased to buff burst hwatcha I say give it 5 jitter. Revert heavy carro jitter to 6 from 8. The jitter increase only hurt galleons that use charged flak left - carro right. And increase up arc.
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I think just about everyone agrees the pyra needed a nerf, but it was taken a little far. Having more speed would make it a nice glass cannon, being able to pack a punch and keep up with the other ships. Right now it's just basic target practice.
As for gun balance, the small change to hwacha had a pretty big impact. I'm not sure why the jitter was changed at all. They say it was due to the heavy clip adjustment, but that's still totally stupid. Why didn't the other guns have their jitter changed then? Why bother changing heavy clip if you're going to compensate by changing the jitter? And when it comes to the carronade nerf, there were some comments made that made it seem that it was partially to compensate for gunner stamina. Why weren't other guns adjusted for gunner stamina in a similar fashion, particularly the heavy guns? Lumberjack is still as powerful as ever, and the stamina gives the hwacha a surprisingly huge boost with the reload speed.
I think Muse just kind of makes changes without thinking about them too much or at all.
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The pyra currently lacks purpose and role. The hard nerf was needed but being hit on all sides means it just lacks reason for existing.
Its not a good charge brawl or ram ship(no hull or acceleration), it can't be a good medium range zoner (no armor to survive long enough for backing out), it can't use its side weapons independently (no turn skill).
These are all roles it used to fill exceptionally. It now can't really do any of these roles slightly. There are different ways to bring back the pyra and thats up for plenty of debate. I'm with Skies, give it some good acceleration and make it a zippy charger.
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Out of curiosity (I've been out of the game for over a year, and only very recently back in), what would thoughts be about a Pyra wit better angles on the side guns?
I think raising the ability to land 2-3 weapons on the port side might raise the utility of the ship in skilled hands, while not making it really any more powerful in pub matches where the side guns are more of an afterthought.
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what would thoughts be about a Pyra wit better angles on the side guns?
Well, we already have a ship like that.. The Mobula. What causes an issue with the current state of the Pyra, isn't gun arcs so much as survivability.. It takes time to get into range, and normally, the Pyra is destroyed before it can really get into close range. To be effective a Pyra needs to be able to survive long enough to get into range and do it's damage. The simplest two ways to achieve this would be making the Pyra be able to take more hits (so it can spend more time getting shot at without blowing up) or make it faster (so it spends less time getting shot at in the first place).
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The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.
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The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.
I mean, I agree: that's the Pyra I fell in love with. But that's a hard balance to hit for low-level play where that's almost all people do with ANY ship.
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The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.
I mean, I agree: that's the Pyra I fell in love with. But that's a hard balance to hit for low-level play where that's almost all people do with ANY ship.
That is the game's problem for evidently not encouraging players enough to put thought into their actions. And if they're not doing that then I dont think they really deserve to win over a charging pyra. If they are however, they're rewarded with easy kills. Or every novice match could become a pyramidion fest and breed hundreds of metamidion pilots who will immediately get their arses handed to them by better players with harder, better ships and learn to move onto more skill indexed strategies.
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... every novice match could become a pyramidion fest and breed hundreds of metamidion pilots who will immediately get their arses handed to them by better players with harder, better ships...
While I don't agree with your statement. At least they'd be playing, and surely at least a few of them would go on to learn the rest of the game. The game seems to be actually pretty terrible at indoctrinating new players as is. If a Pyramidion fest is what it would take to get them invested in the game long enough for me to teach them what's what, then I'd be up for it.
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I think just about everyone agrees the pyra needed a nerf, but it was taken a little far. Having more speed would make it a nice glass cannon, being able to pack a punch and keep up with the other ships. Right now it's just basic target practice.
Ah... I remember the days when a spire was a priority target.
But these days I almost always choose the pyra over the spire.
1. its ability to dodge is laughable. Its slow like a junker but because of the junker's thin hull (and superior armour) profile you need to be careful on where to aim. But a Pyra? Ha! Shoot that fattie because it has no hull and dies in seconds and it can't attempt to defend itself when hit on a blind side.
2. a charging pyra is effective if it gets close. Thats a big if. Because of its speed most mid range builds destroy it before a gat mortar can do any real damage. Gone are the days when a charging pyra was you staring at death itself.
A greater forward velocity will definitely be a step forward. You can fine tune the balance of everything else afterwards but giving back the pyra's ability to close distance and apply appropriate pressure is a definite must. Let the arrow fly true dammit.
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Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting to say the least. And for the tip box - "Place mines in front of charging enemies" after all the faster you go the harder it is to dodge them.
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Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting
I would test that.
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Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting to say the least. And for the tip box - "Place mines in front of charging enemies" after all the faster you go the harder it is to dodge them.
That would be pretty interesting. It'd take some effort to get up to speed, and after that it'd be incredibly hard to stop (with the poor acceleration).
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A fundamental problem with the Pyra is the weight. It is stupidly heavy for being the second smallest ship in the game. A Galleon should not bounce off a Pyra. This is mainly because of everyone's desire for it to be a ram happy ship 'cause its got a pointy end. A new 'bonus damage for hitting a ship with this part of your ship' must be added to fix this problem. Keep the ram, lose the weight.
A second fundamental problem is that it is too easy to engineer to keep it in top maneuvering from. The solution, sadly, was to reduce the top maneuvering abilities and ability to take much damage. That is the only solution possible adjusting just numbers. My solution to this is not to change the numbers, but to change the ship. Make another catwalk (like the front) over the rear engine. Put two more small engines up there, further out than than the ones below. Attach them directly to the 'ramming' framework instead of the main hull. Combined with the other engines, your ship will be fast, nimble, with pretty fast turning ability. However, they are obviously much harder to maintain. Lose them and you are reduced to the current Pyra. On a burn in, you would be required to keep two engineers on engines (like most other ships). Once in battle, those engines will start to go neglected. This would put it on a more level playing field with the other ships.
Not sure why the hwacha was reduced to 2 degrees instead of 1 with no other changes. I had suggested the nerf to Heavy along with a buff by removing the ammo reduction, a slight damage increase, and a 1 degree reduction in hwacha jitter because people would complain about not having laser missiles anymore. Perhaps I should send another email.
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My solution to this is not to change the numbers, but to change the ship. Make another catwalk (like the front) over the rear engine. Put two more small engines up there, further out than than the ones below. Attach them directly to the 'ramming' framework instead of the main hull. Combined with the other engines, your ship will be fast, nimble, with pretty fast turning ability.
I'm pretty sure Muse won't be changing ship models anytime soon, as such, this is not a serious solution. Even if they were willing to put in the work to basically make a new ship, there are definitely other ships for them to work on. Say, the Mobula, or the Spire, or even just by making a new ship. You've been playing this game for a while Richard, you should try to come up with something Muse could actually do. While I can't speak for anyone else here, I'd certainly be interested in what you think would be a workable solution.
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Besides its small size I don't think the pyra is overly-heavy. It weighs 200 compared to spire/goldfish at 150 and galleon at 320. A full speed goldfish does 1/3 more ram damage than a full speed pyra. Rams are primarily not for damage! They're for control and the extra weight helps.
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If they were willing to change ships, and they might be open to it in a very minor way, I'd recommend just putting something directly in the back of the ship between the engines. Like some big barrels or crates, preventing players from doing a full circuit and potentially stopping them from hitting the top engine from underneath. Now it doesn't need the nerfs as much because it's harder to keep everything repaired. The change itself wouldn't require too much extra effort either, which is a nice bonus.
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If they were willing to change ships, and they might be open to it in a very minor way, I'd recommend just putting something directly in the back of the ship between the engines. Like some big barrels or crates, preventing players from doing a full circuit and potentially stopping them from hitting the top engine from underneath. Now it doesn't need the nerfs as much because it's harder to keep everything repaired. The change itself wouldn't require too much extra effort either, which is a nice bonus.
I always thought that would have been a good way to nerf the pyramidion too.
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Making the Pyramidion harder to repair would have detrimental effects outside of a pure balance perspective.
The Pyramidion is the most accessible ship for new players. One of the qualities which makes it effective in low-level lobbies is it's simple crew setup and repair circuits. As a "learning ship" I think it's a great design, and many of us (myself included) cut our teeth keeping Pyramidions in the air. By complicating the main repair circuit you are increasing the amount of time it's going to take for a new player to run it effectively, further widening the gap in power between noob and veteran ships.
From the perspective of an experienced player, main engineer on Pyra is one of the most repetitive positions in the game. By making that repair circuit less efficient and more tedious, you're also making the game less enjoyable for the person assigned to it.
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If they were willing to change ships, and they might be open to it in a very minor way, I'd recommend just putting something directly in the back of the ship between the engines. Like some big barrels or crates, preventing players from doing a full circuit and potentially stopping them from hitting the top engine from underneath. Now it doesn't need the nerfs as much because it's harder to keep everything repaired. The change itself wouldn't require too much extra effort either, which is a nice bonus.
knowing muse, they'll add those changes and won't undo the nerfs.
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I'm pretty sure Muse won't be changing ship models anytime soon, as such, this is not a serious solution. Even if they were willing to put in the work to basically make a new ship, there are definitely other ships for them to work on. Say, the Mobula, or the Spire, or even just by making a new ship. You've been playing this game for a while Richard, you should try to come up with something Muse could actually do. While I can't speak for anyone else here, I'd certainly be interested in what you think would be a workable solution.
There is nothing that can be done with numbers. No workable solution. The Pyra, as it is, is still the most used ship with the best win/loss ratio. It has two forward facing guns and plenty of gun pairs that work amazingly well (golden pairs). It has two free crew members most of the time. It is easy to get to all key components with the last crew member. It is a small target.
You have to change some of those aspects to be able to make the Pyra better without making it better than the other ships. Which, given its record, it still is. You have to trade something to get the nimble turning and high speed lawn dart back. So, what aspects can we change just using numbers?
Let's look at some of those aspects.
The golden pairs problem.
This can be fixed in two 'just numbers' ways. Nerf the guns or tie up a crew member to keep them off a full time gun. They tried nerfing the guns (people cried). This also effects all the rest of the ships and detracts fun from the entire game. Not a good option. The other option is to make it harder to keep two guns on a single target. We will look at those in the next point.
The idle crew problem.
Idle engineers make great gunners. On the Pyra, you have one engineer whose sole purpose is to fire a gun... oh, and fix that balloon thing two steps behind you once in a while. Let the other engineer fix the everything. Except now they can't. The hull is so thin that it needs two babysitters to survive the most feeble attacks. They are now trying tying up a crew member through lower hull health (people are crying more) to try to reduce firepower. This makes the Pyra a gunslinger. Shoot first or die fast. It is a one trick pony. It also increase the NOT FUN aspect.
The lawn dart problem.
They are compensating for small size and great assault firepower by slowing the ship down and making it easy to flank against (tears nonstop). This makes it a gunslinger in a wheelchair with one blind eye. Shoot first and hope no one ever comes from any direction other than your front. The NOT FUN needle goes through the roof on this one. You HAVE to position your ship correctly on first contact. You HAVE to fire first. And you HAVE TO hope no one breaks your armor. You have to do all of this because there is no escape if you do any of those wrong.
Are any of these decisions wrong? Not from a balance standpoint. Since it is already statistically the best ship, and it has been nerfed accordingly, what people are asking for is not balance. They are asking to make it a more FUN ship. They are asking for it to be more than a blind gunslinger riding a one trick pony.
So, let's recap the story so far. I remember a time when an entire team would quit the instant they saw a double metamidian on the other team. Back then, it was FUN to fly them. They were fast, nimble, easy, and deadly. That is why I never once in my entire time playing this game took one. Easy is not fun to me. So I found creative ways to beat them using tiny arc crosses with odd guns on little used ships. The game was 'Guns of Howtobeatametamidian' if you did not simply take one.
Fast forward to today. The Pyra is more balanced with other ships (yet still wins more), and is taken much less (though still the most) and is now NOT FUN to fly. To make it more fun to fly would make it overpowered again and the skies would be full of them again. This is the Pyramidian Paradox. It is too good at the one thing it does well.
Given that any buff to the numbers will only increase the Pyra's overall win rate and use, and any debuf would make it even more dismal to fly or ruin other ships, nothing can be done there. You are either going to make it more overpowered, or less fun. The only option left is to change the ship so that the numbers can be changed to make flying it fun again without making it more overpowered.
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How about moving the armor repair point up to the top in the mirror spot to the balloon and angling one of the side guns slightly forwards to give the bottom deck engineer something more to do.
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I really like the idea of increasing max speed wildly, while acceleration remains the same.
It might be the fun aspect you're talking about and it's still a one trick pony, not really overpowered because this would make a pyra truly a ramming / ambush ship. You hit the enemy or you hit the wall.
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I don't think a huge speed increase with low acceleration would help. Most ships can out maneuver and dodge charging pyras and when that happens the pyra is now useless. Its got a ton of forward momentum and the enemy isn't forwards. I'd say it could be similar to goldfish speed but not with the current acceleration. In most situations the pyra isn't at full speed.
2.50 is a good (low) acceleration that I'd like to revert to. If we want to give it more speed then cap it at 40 like fish and reduce hull to 500 because 550 OP.
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To fix the golden pair would be to do what the spire does and make the guns face outwards at a slight angle making bifecta possible but awkward. I assume changing the angle the gun faces by default counts as changing the numbers.
Idle crew... frankly as a gungi I clip into the balloon and face forward so I can hit the balloon and still be ready for hull break and killing shot. 1 step would be to fix that obvious exploit. Another might be to lower the engine hp of the turning. So sustained kero/moon lawn darting will destroy your ability to turn adequately, justifying the increased top speed too as both a buff and a nerf. Plus it still keeps its default turning ability, it just loses it more with sustained tool use (frankly I do wish it would have a smidge more turning ability to fully balance out).
Also I just had a really dumb match showcasing several issues.
1. Hwacha's ability to simply stamina spam and kill.
2. AI's ability to rebuild to recover from a hwacha being garbage resulting in spam hwacha as an actual kill tactic (seriously poor dementio-not that anyone cries when it happens to me).
But to stay on topic, what if the old reload time of the hwacha was restored? The really REEEALLY long one that took a million years to get ready. With stamina it becomes a minor nerf (hwacha shouldn't be able to shoot as fast as it can anyway...its too much shatter and explosive in such short intervals).
Will link the video once the video is ready. All I did was put front gun to arc and watched myself win and I made a bazzilion errors like kero reversing into a mountain where I thought at the angle I was in I would just clip the edge. A fatal error in a real match. As well as lose track of the target like... twice and average reaction time lag of about 3 seconds.
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2. AI's ability to rebuild to recover from a hwacha being garbage resulting in spam hwacha as an actual kill tactic (seriously poor dementio-not that anyone cries when it happens to me).
To be fair, some Gatling was always shooting at my Squid armor too and if it wasn't your AI shooting when you didn't have front gun arcs, then it was your ally. And neither did I bring hydrogen or chute vent to dodge multiple Hwachas, so I died even quicker after only one Hwacha. AND there was one time where my AI decided to not fix the armor at all and mid range Hwacha had an easy time. (And our ally was double Gatling Pyra, because he didn't believe in AI Mortar, come on)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy9O1vFidwY
AI was set to repair pretty much the whole match.
You only got gat after your engines get taken out (and when the junker remembered you existed and noticed you couldn't dodge-strangely had little to no killing ability for gat carrot). AI script will prioritise hull over engines. So even if you set to repair, AI will constantly stop what its doing to tap the hull.
Thus I didn't have to do much but point the hwacha towards you. First volley would definitely destroy your engines and either break your hull or near break it. By the time it reloads, you'd have prolly 2 engines ready only to go out again and then take more hull dmg in earnest. third volley you would just die. As shown in the video.
If they aren't gonna fix the AI, definitely increase the reload time to similar as before to make it viable to survive a volley. Because as it is, even a novice can just play in pub, point that hwacha and spam other ships to death. While old hwacha fish made full use of the gat hwacha combo as the reload time forced a need for maintained pressure while the gun reloaded. Shortening the reload time fixed the major complaints about that.
But now that stamina exist, the reload is now too fast.
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How about moving the armor repair point up to the top in the mirror spot to the balloon and angling one of the side guns slightly forwards to give the bottom deck engineer something more to do.
Have thought of this also. For a Good engineer keeping the Pyramidion up is no real fear, the better the pilot the easier the ride. Maybe put the Hull where the stern engine bay is. But you have to actually be upstairs to repair the hull. Or you could also place a Critical Valve somewhere on the ship. The *Wink Wink Critical Valve* Is more of a D-buff as the main engineer has 2 major components with distance. There Could be a Front bumper arrangement that needs the extra repair on the left of helm. This would also remove pilot from helm on those moments, whilst rebuilding.
Early having a scotch having a read.
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To fix the golden pair would be to do what the spire does and make the guns face outwards at a slight angle making bifecta possible but awkward. I assume changing the angle the gun faces by default counts as changing the numbers.
Yes. Make it real!
(http://i.imgur.com/ZUrpWV5.jpg)
Golden pairs aren't the problem. Everything except squid and fish outgun pyra. Pyra is faster than everything except squid and fish.
1. Hwacha's ability to simply stamina spam and kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy9O1vFidwY
Hwatcha spam hwawtcha fish has always been a thing with rams. It's the same hwatcha longer range. Hwatcha isn't worse now Daniel, for the majority it's better.
Your gunner did a great job Max. Stamina doesn't make much difference in terms of dps because you can only reduce a reload by 1.6 seconds and it regenerates slowly. A full stamina reload increases dps by 9% while buff increases it 16.7%. Stamina can be amazing if you need arcs like your gunner did. He saved stamina for the arcs which was great for when you weren't burning.
Sitting and spamming hwatcha isn't viable because you can only disable. Ram and hwatcha works because you have control and can do armor/hul/balloon damage. Terrain is perfect for rams but a missed ram can be fatal. Rams are big bumps for control. Hwatcha spam + ram spam works, hwatcha alone doesn't.
And neither did I bring hydrogen or chute vent to dodge multiple Hwachas
It's hard to fight a fish without vertical and I didn't see the tar being effective. Use more tools Max and please don't bring spyglass.
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It was an AI match.
Its my AI crew pilot load out. If skele randomly dced (which is kinda likely these days as many have suffered it after the patch), I would be flying blind.
I usually bring bumpers instead of spy glass. Which is my pubbing loadout because for some reason it doesn't process that a flying airship that floats with balloons needs the balloon to be fixed when it gets hurt with vertical tools or else we can't rise or fall or even eat dirt from the pop from some lucky balloon ram.
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Golden pairs aren't the problem. Everything except squid and fish outgun pyra. Pyra is faster than everything except squid and fish.
On the Pyra, they are since they are in the assault position. On first contact, Pyra outguns everything but Mobula. I don't count the Spire, as it is easy to gat out the main gun. After the initial contact, if both ships survive, the Pyra outguns everything on second reload. It is only after ships start passing one another and turning that the Pyra becomes outclassed.
It is a bell curve. The longer a Pyra is in battle, the less viable it becomes. For other ships, the longer they are in battle, the more viable they can become.
And no, Max. Changing the angle of the guns is not a numbers only change. That is changing the model. 'Changing the numbers' is going into a database and changing the fields.
Guns: Damage A type + amount. Damage B type + amount. Reload. Clip size. Gun HP. Time between shots. Fire causing. Arc limits. Turning speed. Velocity. Drop/lift. Range. etc
Ships: Mass. Turning power. Acceleration. Top speed. Lift power. Drag (vert, horiz, turning), Hull HP. Armor HP.
Things that are not numbers: Gun placement and hit boxes (where you can fix/mount them from). Engine placement and hit boxes. Hull/balloon fix point placement and hit boxes. Hull designation (what is hull on your ship that enemies can shoot). Balloon designation.
All these things require changing the model and exporting to the game.
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As someone who poked around in code I can tell you that they are not a model change. Each model has assigned points in space that serve as the slot of the gun. Rotation of the gun can then be separately assigned.
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Tilting the front guns may not fix too much, the Mobula has tilted guns too. What it would do is making Mercury a pain to use.
Maybe we can make the Pyramidion actually use its side guns, because why does it have them.
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I stand corrected, if that is correct. I have thought about splaying the front guns on the pyra a bit, and swinging the front lower deck gun forward a bit.
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Tilting the front guns may not fix too much, the Mobula has tilted guns too. What it would do is making Mercury a pain to use.
Maybe we can make the Pyramidion actually use its side guns, because why does it have them.
to encourage that you would need to tilt the main deck side gun to be by default turned 10-45 degrees towards the front to encourage trifecta.
That will certainly encourage side gun use. It won't be balanced but it gets what you want.
In fact... remove the engine side gun entirely. With a nerf like that it'd justify a pyra buff.
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In fact... remove the engine side gun entirely. With a nerf like that it'd justify a pyra buff.
I am biased against this, because it will kill two out of my three Pyramidion loadouts.
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I have pondered how moving one of the lower deck guns to the right side would play out along with splaying the front guns a bit. Flip the entire stairs and mount section to the right side.
I have actually been lightly asking about the possibilities of alternate gun placements/angles on all ships. This would create new 'ships' to choose from. Pyramidian, Pyramidian A, Pyramidian B, etc. Or give each a unique name, like 'Sphynx' and 'Phyraoh'.
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i have actually been lightly asking about the possibilities of alternate gun placements/angles on all ships. This would create new 'ships' to choose from. Pyramidian, Pyramidian A, Pyramidian B, etc. Or give each a unique name, like 'Sphynx' and 'Phyraoh'.
I'd be strongly opposed to this, as it would really change my ability to instantly recognize my enemies capabilities from across the map. I don't want to have to remember not only the weapon set but ALSO the chosen gun placement on each enemy ship -- especially if the enemy has multiple of the SAME ship wiith differing gun combinations AND gun positions.
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I'd be strongly opposed to this, as it would really change my ability to instantly recognize my enemies capabilities from across the map. I don't want to have to remember not only the weapon set but ALSO the chosen gun placement on each enemy ship -- especially if the enemy has multiple of the SAME ship wiith differing gun combinations AND gun positions.
Little problem. In serious matches you have to memorize loadouts of every ship in the lobby anyway. And in less serious matches it's not important.
But then, some lobby notifications every time there's a little ship / loadout change would be nice.
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That's my point: I have to memorize loadouts already. Don't give me more stuff to memorize -- especially stuff like gun angles, which is hard to check mid-game. At least I can get visual confirmation of whether that front gun is a Merc or not if I forget....but noticing that an Artemis has a 20% difference to its arc is much harder.
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I think a simple stat adjustment is what's needed. I agree with the other suggestions for a top speed increase. The thing needs to live up to its design conception of a charging rhino. I think the flaw all along was giving it a "tank" design as well, and now that it's gone all it needs back is the top speed. It should be cruising around at top speed, like a bull shark, always looking to slam into it's opponent.
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The problem is its acceleration is 2.25 m/s^2! More speed won't help because most of the time when brawling you're not at full speed. Yes it needs speed and IS faster than everything except what it outguns (fish+squid), but that doesn't help in brawling because it's too damn slow. More speed would be nice but it doesn't fix the fact that acceleration is 2.25!!
It doesn't need any model rework and I doubt Muse wants to spend that time and effort possibly creating bugs and such. Give it a real acceleration because right now spire has DOUBLE the acceleration of pyra.
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What if we made it a bit tankier, heavily buffed its acceleration (or gave it rapid acceleration to a certain speed, then had it fall off, so the Pyra would excel at close range repeated rams), and reduced its ability to reverse and accelerate backwards?
The result would be a very bull-headed ship with a much weakened ability to adjust to an attack gone wrong.
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What if we made it a bit tankier, heavily buffed its acceleration (or gave it rapid acceleration to a certain speed, then had it fall off, so the Pyra would excel at close range repeated rams), and reduced its ability to reverse and accelerate backwards?
The result would be a very bull-headed ship with a much weakened ability to adjust to an attack gone wrong.
straight upgrade for level 1 pilots :)
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straight upgrade for level 1 pilots :)
Well, yes. But they'll soon realize the downsides, once they learn to reverse. :P
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Acceleration is a single value in a spreadsheet. Everyone can come up with "what if" ideas but it doesn't help. We can all speculate forever but meanwhile the pyra isn't balanced. Unless the majority agree on a realistic suggestion the pyra will stay indefinitely.
Don't blame Muse when the community doesn't have a solution either. So far the only real suggestion (besides acceleration) is increasing max speed. I don't think it would help but it's atleast something and I'd support it over the alternative of nothing.
I understand this is the 'Gameplay' and not 'Feedback' section but I don't see the point in imagining when there's a serious problem that we can fix but won't. Does anyone wanna see the pyra change next patch?
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Yes!
I think it should definitely get an acceleration buff. Not a huge one, but maybe a little lower than the Spire. Enough that it doesn't feel like the Galleon is more maneuverable.
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I agree that just an accel buff would be enough, nothing else, just accel so it's not as sluggish as a galleon...
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Acceleration upgrade sounds reasonable given the constraints.
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I'd aggre with an acceleration boost
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At this point, if we want to get anything done with pyra, +1 to accel buffs from me
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I thought the top speed buff and a slight turning buff sounded more fun, makes ramming riskier but with higher rewards, makes ramming slightly easier and should you miss the ram you aren't COMPLETELY dead as the option to retreat is still there. However the accel buff works too - count me in.
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I thought the top speed buff and a slight turning buff sounded more fun, makes ramming riskier but with higher rewards, makes ramming slightly easier and should you miss the ram you aren't COMPLETELY dead as the option to retreat is still there. However the accel buff works too - count me in.
Realistically speaking, if you want the best results for pyra's balance without testing beforehand the accel buff is our best bet, because Muse has shown us this year that beta testing anything but alliance is not on their schedule.
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At this point, if we want to get anything done with pyra, +1 to accel buffs from me
Yep. I'm for trying it.
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I wonder if a higher longitudinal acceleration would be enough already. I kind of don't want a higher turn acceleration for the Pyramidion, because that made its foward guns so strong to begin with, I tell myself.
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We're not advocating for higher turn acceleration. I don't think it needs more vertical acceleration because it has 2.75 while junker has 3.00 and goldfish 3.25. Vertical acceleration is in multiples of .25 and every ship has a unique value.
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Long time listener, first time caller. Here are my thoughts on the Hwatcha and the Pyramidion as of late (the Big Spring Patch, or BSP), which have been talked about a lot lately in-game. I'm sure these points have been discussed, but as a former primarily-Pyramidion-pilot (pre-BSP) and a so-pro Hwatcha gunner (pre- and post-BSP), I feel like I can almost objectively criticize and critique this ship and this weapon.
The Hwatcha: I hear a lot of calls in-game about the Hwatcha being overpowered and it requiring a nerf because it's too ubiquitous and effective. But it's not. Yes, it's great at disabling enemy components and making the bad dudes crap themselves with all the daunting repairs. But it's awful versus armor and decent against hull itself. That's a good thing. It's a utility weapon. You disable enemies to help your team. Then, if you're smart, you get another gun on the enemy because you can Hwatcha allllll-daaaay using a Goldfish and you're not going to get a kill against a decent enemy. It'll just be a very long match. I generally fly with and for players of all stripes, colors, and skill levels, and I can tell you that a nub Goldfish captain understands the Hwatcha is great at hitting and annoying an enemy... but you'd be surprised at how ineffectively they use it because they rely so heavily upon it. Most newer pilots only use the Hwatcha and never purposely or purposefully use the side guns. Huge mistake, easily corrected with some helpful tips from more experienced pilots.
Pre-BSP, I loved the Hwatcha and burst and heavy ammunition were REQUIREMENTS. Now... burst still is, definitely, but I rarely find myself using heavy ammo nor asking my gunner to load it up. Heavy ammo on the Hwatcha can't provide the long-range disables that are helpful. But up-close, with burst ammo, the Hwatcha is devastating, and it should be. I only have my gunners use heavy ammo on the Hwatcha now at long range to assist allies who are already stripping armor. No longer can you jack up an enemy ship with heavy ammo at longish ranges. That's good! In short: the Hwatcha is fine. It's still awesome, pre- and post-BSP, but it's not OP. It isn't as useful as it once was with heavy ammo, and that's a GOOD thing. It's lethal because of the constant disables at close range, and that MAKES SENSE. Try not to get into those situations ;)
(Also: I quickly learned using gunner stamina for reloads is way less helpful than waiting for the long reload and having a better angle. I'm sure many of you will agree. I rarely use stamina for reloads at this point, only if I KNOW I'll be in angle... and I'm not a betting man.)
Now, regarding my baby, the Pyramidion: I think the developers lost their way when it came to the design of the Pyramidion. Someone above alluded to how the Pyra was supposed to be, by design, a ramming ship, or a glass cannon. I agree. And it no longer is. And that's sad. The Pyra now no longer has ... well, anything it's particularly great at, and things it's actively bad at.
Certainly some will disagree, but, as a long-time player with zero competitive experience and plenty of pub experience, here is how I've seen the Pyra taken, treated, and responded to:
The Pyra, like the Goldfish, is a great learning ship. That's where I cut my teeth. They're both straight-forward (literally) ships that can be equipped with understandable loadouts and job descriptions. We all know how the Pyra works: engineer on the bottom, engineer on the balloon, and an engy or gunner on the top-right gun. It's cliche and vanilla and that's GOOD. The Pyra was a ship any moron could fly. And many a moron (and maestro) did. THAT was the problem... too many Pyras. The Pyra was incredibly effective in the right hands, and not a disaster in the wrong hands. When the BSP came out, if I recall correctly, three changes were made: the Pyra's turning ability was nerfed, its horizontal acceleration was nerfed, and its armor was nerfed. As Meat Loaf so eloquently sang, two out of three ain't bad. But as we also know, three's a crowd. I think two of these changes would have been warranted, but that all three together are overkill. And the consensus seems to be... and I agree with it... go back to the original concept for the Pyra. It should be like the Juggernaut in X-Men 3: Once it gets a'goin', it ain't stoppin'. Restore the acceleration so it can ram. Give the armor a slight buff so it can actually make it to its target. BUT. I'm all about the nerf to the turning ability, and I'd even be okay with nerfing it further in the name of restoring the Pyra to a ramming ship. The Pyra should have to get close to be effective, and it should go in guns a'blazin'... and if it swings and misses, well, strike one, you're out, sucker. High risk, high reward. As it is now... it's high risk, likely-death without a very reliable bottom deck engineer and decent shooters. The Pyra has been stricken down as a learning ship because it's now a paper tiger against any experienced enemy. The Pyra nerf made me fly other ships more often, sure, but that doesn't mean I'm having more fun. Gone are my days of charging in at the helm of the RAMMING SPEED and killing my enemies... which, I agree, was too easy because if I missed or whiffed, I could easily recover and kill at close range. Nerf that turning. I'm rambling. I'm sorry.
Off-topic: Oh, and don't get me started on the Squid, which is now the most annoying ship in the game because of its resilience and speed, even in the hands of nubs. I used to HATE flying the Squid because you had to be a REALLY GOOD PILOT to fly one successfully... and if you WERE... you were a force to be reckoned with. And I was awful at maneuvering the thing. But now? I can fly one and do well. It didn't use to be that way! It was high risk, high reward... a ship for the skilled pilots. Hence, it's described difficulty-level in-game. Now everybody flies it because it was buffed too much in the name of allowing it to be flied more often... by people who shouldn't be flying it, like me. I miss being a one-trick-pony. I wish I still sucked at the Squid and I wish I still enjoyed the Pyra... but now the Squid is made of titanium and the Pyra is made of peanut brittle.
Okay, sorry. There are my cents, which I hope make some.
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Hwacha is OP. I'm not going to waste time trying to explain how it changed after the patch, just play the game.
I'd prefer to see a pyra with some crazy max speed rather than acceleration. I'm not particularly interested in making it more viable as in balance in competitive games. I'd prefer to see something that makes the 'how to use that ship' tricky. And viable in a very odd way. That's what makes mines so much fun. It's more important to make ships more fun. No?
I don't want the squid to be nerfed because other ships were nerfed. What's the point. Do something with other ships instead.
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Muse pls nerf fynx
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Muse pls nerf squid
pretty much
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Muse pls nerf fynx
+1
Fynx OP. He carried me through many competitive matches.
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I had a match yesterday firing burst hwacha from 2 guns on a galleon at another galleon and seeing progress rack up for an achievement 'destroy parts at a distance greater than 1300m. Which is confusing because max range is supposedly 1200m and ridiculous because unlike heavy clip burst can't miss, because it essentially already is but repeated 10-20% of a hwacha barrage is enough to disable.
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I'd prefer to see a pyra with some crazy max speed rather than acceleration. I'm not particularly interested in making it more viable as in balance in competitive games. I'd prefer to see something that makes the 'how to use that ship' tricky. And viable in a very odd way. That's what makes mines so much fun. It's more important to make ships more fun. No?
No. It's important to make the GAME more fun. Aside from the fact that on the vast majority of maps, the Pyra can't reliably get up to speed in the first place; It's currently so easy to kill it's silly. Sidenote: did you know that a Buffed Loch H Flak can 1 shot a Pyra even if it's armor's up. If the armor's low enough for the Direct damage of the Flak to finish it off (I think was about a fifth-sixth) the Burst damage is enough to outright kill it. It's actually pretty fun both to do, and to see get done. From there, the Pyra is one of basically two ships that someone new to the game can use well. and.. it's a non-ship, at this point, it's little more than a target dummy. The people who have been most effected by the Pyra's ridiculous nerf, are newer players. It's supposed to be an "easy" ship to fly, but it's simply too slow to react to input. It needs the increased acceleration simply to be viable to actually learn on, let alone brought to a serious match. And you know what? The Pyra was never THAT overpowered.
Sure it was easy and teams could, and did, actually bring them. But at the end of the day, they were still some of the easiest ships to kill, mostly because they were all hull. The biggest issue with them was that they were a bit too nimble.. that's it. That's hardly a good enough reason to nerf it to the point where you can't seriously bring it into a competitive match. And suggesting turning it into the "Mine Launcher" of ships.. is just insane. That gun is only "fun" for people who can actually use it, *newsflash* that is not the majority of players who startup this game. With only seven ships total, it's also not a thing we can afford to even consider.
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The past few months that I've been watching various competitive events I've seen the pyramidion far more often and more successfully used than the spire. I don't think 'target dummy' is accurate.
There is the question though - if the pyramidion nerf was reversed even completely would we see the all pyramidion meta (which i despised and was happy to see die) return? or have enough people started using other ships to avoid that?
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There is the question though - if the pyramidion nerf was reversed even completely would we see the all pyramidion meta (which i despised and was happy to see die) return? or have enough people started using other ships to avoid that?
I think at this point people in comp have figured out that Pyramidions die against everything, ner for not, Mobula rules, lion gun op. Double Pyramidion in general, however, may not be something teams will be that afraid of using again.
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The Pyra was never billed as a ramming ship until the community defined it that based on it's appearance. With the pointed bow and the knife on the front. In original 1.0-1.1 it was a multirole ship. It could ram yes but ramming was no where near as effective as keeping it's guns on target. The Goldfish back then was more of the rammer. Course with the flak as powerful as it was, two solid cracks + a ram would easily tear a ship in half.
If competitive events have been seeing Pyras used successfully then those aren't competitive events. You take a pyra against any ship in the game right now and there is just no way it will survive a 1v1 let alone 2v2 situations. They are just liabilities. Unless of course you want foes for focus fire on it but then it really has no tank ability anymore so I dunno why you'd want that.
And I can agree that the most effected players are the noobs because thats all they really have to fly. It was a good all arounder for that purpose. When it had ram ability it at least had something noobs could enjoy but with it folding up like a used tissue...ehh. Give the squid the used tissue with more speed and agility and take the Pyra back = win win.
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My modest thoughts on hwacha:
I liked it much more before the buff; it required two types of rounds, for long range sniping (I was able to snipe the fuck out of enemies barely seeing the model in my prime with heavy) and wrecking shit when in close - and it felt good. Also the tension and requirements of being patient, knowing the moment when to shoot it to get most of the barrage, because of the reload time long af. And despite all of this it was quite a low-access heavy weapon for new people, but with a great potential to master.
Now it... just is. Boring. The only reason why gunner is still needed (more or less) for this gun is stamina reloading. The only viable ammo is burst, now used for "sniping" shit in mid-distance if you have a hand to it - and that is absolutely fucking prepostrous.
About pyra.
This nerf was far too strong in my taste - saying that from the perspective of a bad pub player. Before nerfing a bottom engie could sometimes leave armour for few seconds to fire the side gun, after the nerf - the only time I was able to do so (or any of my friends who knew what was doing) without letting the sodding ship die in those seconds was... no, I believe it never happened. Although as a bad pilot I must say that acceleration nerf... I felt it to be both good and bad. As shite I was able to steer it because of that, but it prevented me from getting to my target on time/run the hell outta being surrounded many times.
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As someone said - if there is no serious suggestion on how to fix pyra then increasing the top speed by small amount would be a start. On the other hand I'm afraid that Muse will never find enough time to actually test those things through.
Usage stats may give us a clue about the validity of specific ships but... not quite. Many new players are using microscope to drive a nail and that's why for instance squid usage was low. If noobs were taking it and ramming with it and crew had problems with keeping up to repairs it doesn't already mean that it's a bad or non-viable ship. Now we have this thing called veteran matches, so it's a great opportunity to see how usage rates look like in more veteran-ish environment.
But that wasn't the case with pyramidion. We have seen that it completely dominated the competetive scene, so SOME action was necessary. The question is whether Muse is thinking that something is broken and needs fixing, because they can think otherwise. They may claim that usage dropped to the acceptable level and that's it, even if most (if not all) vets admit that pyra is competetivelly invalid.
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On the subject of the hwacha and heavy clip nerf:
When I suggested the nerf to Heavy clip and gave a very detailed explanation why, it was not a standalone suggestion. Heavy clip nerf (which was sorely needed) was suggested to be tested alongside the new stamina system. I did not like, and still do not like the way gunner stamina works. So, I made a suggestion to nerf heavy clip by a certain percent (I started at 90%, which was not enough), but make gunner stamina also reduce recoil. The combined heavy + stamina would have removed most if not all recoil. Instead, the choice made was to remove the need for Heavy by reducing the recoil by 2 degrees, something that I don't recall seeing in testing. I don't know if it was added last second, or if I just missed it in testing.
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Instead, the choice made was to remove the need for Heavy by reducing the recoil by 2 degrees, something that I don't recall seeing in testing.
Why the hell am I even surprised.
Yeeeeaaaaah, maybe it was needed. What I'm saying is, that they dumbed one of my favourite weapons to shoot. Hence I may be biased on that topic.
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Muse members have gone around asking for feedback. They get many different opinions and as Muse says: it takes us 6 months to implement changes.
Just curious does it take 6 months to get feedback or 6 months to get the changes applied in-game.