Author Topic: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?  (Read 6219 times)

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2015, 06:37:52 pm »
I've not experienced any salt from a pause request, had a pauses denied because of combat/spots.
Once paused at enemy request while enemy was visible and in range, but still accepted the pause...
Most salt I've seen from pauses I've been part of is after the pause...
But still undecided...

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 08:29:09 pm »
Personally.. I actually don't care.. (like most things).. I can see the benefits of having or not having them..

But in my experience.. I have only seen 2 pauses that were really unfortunate for one of the teams.. An one was an unofficial pause(the pause was denied, but the players paused anyways, that might have ruined a good ambush... Though it was the team doing the ambush who requested the pause.

The other one just the clouds issue, where people who weren't spotted and could of been closer before being see were seen early...

I think it should just be.. If both teams agree to a pause (IE one captain from both teams says pause), the clock stops for 1min max(or is the current rule 2? I don't even know).. Otherwise no clock stop. This way the teams themselves decide.. But their is no clock penalty for being nice.


Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 11:18:04 pm »
I like pauses. Disconnects or some weird bugs can always happen and it is nice that pauses enable teams to deal with these issues even when in-game.

Pauses can cause other issues, like already mentioned, ship respawning during a pause or that the pause ends with clouds bringing one team into a disadvantageous position. Both of these could be prevented by a ref simply not allowing a pause when one ship is dead or not unpausing immediately when a team is in a more disadvantageous because of clouds. It may just be me, but I have a feeling that a lot refs don't really care about these kind of issues and just want to watch the teams kill each other, regardless of their current position, otherwise the refs would have addressed these issues to the organizers, I would imagine.

Refs have no power whatsoever to ensure that a pause is a pause, yes, but they also don't have the power over anything at all in reality. I don't see the ref's lack of ability a reason to remove a feature a tournament or event introduces, because you might as well not do the entire tournament or even to begin with for the very same reason. Really, nobody has to surrender or ready up when an invisible timer runs out, the teams just play along, all tournaments and events in GoIO are just a "gentlemen's agreement".

Refs also sometimes call pauses seemingly randomly and different refs don't always pause in the same scenarios. That is because of how simple the pause rules are. So, either trust your referee to know what's best or make your own impeccable pause ruleset for refs to use in the future.

Teams also don't instantly react to pauses and some teammembers don't read the chat. However, I do suppose it is fair to believe though that at least one out of eight people has the time to notice a change in the chat, while being outside of any engagements, and is able to tell his pilot about it via voice-chat who in return can tell his co-pilot. Although some time for teams to react should be calculated in by the ref when calling a pause.



I would also rather have an official pause than something that teams have to request from their enemy. I find it much better for players to have to deal with the ref following a very loose ruleset than for players to call other players mean names and accuse them of winning through "unmoral behaviour", when players start requesting for pauses in unacceptable situations, like when they are about to die.

Considering consequences, well, pauses are more of a convenience and the players themselves are responsible for being able to play on their own pc during the time of their match, so it is not wrong to say that it is their own fault, even when more than half of issues requiring a pause are out of people's control. I guess to make teams pay more attention to pauses they could be given a silly title when they failed to do so multiple times, like "Least Chat Attentive Team of the Week" or something, nothing mean of course, because that would be mean, although that example may already be mean, depending on oneself.

And if a ref doesn't respond at all, then the teams decide if they want to be nice and pause or just follow the rules of when a ref doesn't say anything, then the match continues normally. If the ref is not able to respond for multiple occasions, I imagine for the future it should be thought about replacing said ref or adding a secondary ref until the primary ref got his stuff back together.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2015, 12:12:43 am »
Better pause rules. One idea is to allow teams to move to nearby hard cover during a pause. If you're using clouds you wanna stay hidden. After unpause you might not have the clouds but at least you won't be in the open.

Another problem is momentum. During a pause you lose momentum which affects ships differently. To benefit the pausing team we might need a 3 second head start and maybe extra for pyra/galleon. Ref can call headstart Blue, then unpause Red.
Slow acceleration: galleon pyra, mid slow: fish, mid: mobula junker spire, very fast: squid

If you have one buff hammer you could go from buffed engines to fully buffed during a pause. Crew can agree to only maintain current buffs. I don't think drifting makes enough difference.


« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:21:24 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2015, 11:49:48 am »
there are absolutely no tools in order to control or call pauses correct.

there are no consequences for teams that move around during pauses, and they are often called without reason or wrongly.
It is something that varies from referee to referee meaning that you cannot rely on it.

the argument for people dc'ing is somewhat valid, but pauses cant be called during engagements anyway. + honestly the players participating are required to have pc's and connections that cna play the game. its really the team's own fault if someone dc's.
the only valid pause reason that I see is a gentlemans rule.

i think it would be better to remove the pause function to avoid confusion between refs and teams, because often teams themselves call off pauses and start moving, before the referee recognizes that the pause is over. its annoying for the ref and have no consequences.

it would be better to remove it and if teams are thinking about the timer running out during an unofficial gentleman pause, then just raise the game time to 22 minutes or something like that.

I have never liked pauses (hence no pauses in VIP, yes I'm aware this isn't competitive play) and had a rather large discussion about making competitions without pauses recently. Even as a competitive player, I have always found dc's more of a problem than a benefit. I agree with everything Skrim says here. The only thing I suggested adding was 20-25 seconds at the start of any match to allow for everyone to load in before starting...granted there is no feature for this so it's similar to a pause in that function BUT as long as the pilots don't get on the helm the ships wont move. This allows for any potential problems with initial loading in or people that are slower to load in.
I think part of being on a competitive team is making sure that you have members that don't dc, or at least not on any regular basis. I'm aware that the servers aren't perfect but competitive players play this game for hours on end...if they don't know if they dc frequently enough to be a problem in competitive play than they shouldn't be on a competitive team. Pauses cause way more issues with concerns to ships drifting (this can make a large difference), pauses not being called fast enough or clear enough or if teams are to allow pauses do to gentlemanly behavior, what is appropriate engagement range based on each ship build and spots...even if spots aren't down that doesn't mean that ships aren't spotted...some teams will see ships but keep them not spotted in order to keep a sneak approach.
This isn't even mentioning all the tactical issues that pauses can cause.

How I see it is a dc can cause a disadvantage to a team,agreed, but a pause can also cause a disadvantage to a team and sometimes it's the team opposite of the one calling for the pause and that seems less fair than just having the team that dc'd deal with the dc without a pause. Pauses also can cause a lot of stress to refs and some refs get flak for "bad calls".

TL:DR: Pauses are way more of a problem than a benefit.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2015, 12:17:26 pm »
well question is also would teams rather have 22 min game time and have their pauses cut, with unofficial gentlemans pauses are allowed
or do they want pauses and 20 mins games, with possibility of referee or team fuck ups.

I know its not an ultimatum, but i do think cutting pauses legitimizes 22 min games to "repair" the damage of not having 2 mins to find a sub midgame.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2015, 01:31:37 pm »
well question is also would teams rather have 22 min game time and have their pauses cut, with unofficial gentlemans pauses are allowed

Teams can still fuck up here and instead of a referee fucking up, a team could be trash talked by others when deciding not to be a gentleman.

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 02:48:42 pm »
I know its not an ultimatum, but i do think cutting pauses legitimizes 22 min games to "repair" the damage of not having 2 mins to find a sub midgame.

With the extra 2 mins add that would legitimizes removing the pause.

Teams can still fuck up here and instead of a referee fucking up, a team could be trash talked by others when deciding not to be a gentleman.

If teams talk trash to the opposing team for not allowing a pause then they should not be granted a pause at all...you can't trash talk about non-gentlemanly behavior and than turn around and act "non-gentlemanly". I think that is much more an issue with community standards in competitive than an issue that would weigh in on removing or not removing pauses. A team shouldn't feel intimidated by the reproductions of not allowing a pause if they feel like it would cause their team a disadvantage. I understand that some teams could be seen as "less than gentlemanly"  for not allowing a pause but this is competitive play and each team is doing what they feel is best for their interests.
 

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 03:54:06 pm »
...you can't trash talk about non-gentlemanly behavior and than turn around and act "non-gentlemanly".

Guess what people actually do. They will even do this very thing, if they have no proof that there was actual non-gentlemanly behavior.

But you are right, it shouldn't have too much weight when it comes to the answering the OP's questions, if any at all. I personally just like going for an option that allows for less conflict. A ref can also be talked bad about, but will most often be adressed as "ref" and rarely by name, when it happens.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 03:56:01 pm »
Or maybe were just spoiled by pauses.

I find the conondrum in having or not having official pauses or not odd when i remember sunday rumbles not having pauses, same goes with other tourneys.

In those games, no pauses always had a flow in the game but at the same time, big salty behaviour because of DC's.
But at the same time, the flow never broke and made players a bit more creative.

One completely halts the ability of the players(Pausing games), and the other still allows for that ability, just its disrupted (No pauses).
And to go even further into why Pauses can be a hinderence is the flow in spectating and mindset of what is going on.


So, with alot of thinking, i feel like pauses simply makes us FEEL safe. But also destroys what was just going on.
But in the other hand, with NO PAUSES a team can charge in when they see player X disconnected which is a shitty move.
But at the same time, a skin hardened with DCing players should still be able to hold back.


Forgiving ONE player (3/4 of a ship) for DCing and then hindering the 8 players shouldn't exist.
I think official pauses shouldnt stay, and gentleman ruling pauses can make teams look like an asshole.

Lets have no Pauses because the game is very much playable without them.

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 04:50:21 pm »
Lets have no Pauses because the game is very much playable without them.

Cheers to this mate!

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 09:04:03 am »
I have been reading all the feedback Again, talked to some old players, so here is my closing statement for this thread.

My initial concern for pauses is that they are a false security that just simply cannot be done correctly in guns of icarus.

some teams call pauses imidiately upon disconnect, in engagement or not. sometimes the referee agress on this and that ruins the experience for the other team and somewhat the viewers.
I can keep on listing examples of prior experience in goio, but when it comes Down to it, it doesnt really matter.

The fact is that the current state of the pause rule is irrelevant.
Pauses cannot be called in engagements.
- with this rule the referee cannot fuck up a pause as long as there are no engagement. However the referee can still fuck it up. to this end there will always be a problem with this exact rule, both teams and referees can bend the rules depending on the game they are playing, and there is no consequences for either of them.

The pause is a false security, something of a luxury that teams have in case they have a dc.
This luxury is something that they probaly should keep, but without a referee interaction.
pausing between teams should always be allowed, but official pauses causes more Chaos and problems than a pause called between teams.

simply put, there are no pause function in guns of icarus.
therefore pauses are simply impossible, as no one can keep their ship steady due to Wind, no cloud can give continued advantage etc. It's just impossible.

I still believe the pause rule should be written out of the ruleset since it is apparent that streamers, teams and referees all around dont know how the rule Works anyway.

but tbh, it wont change anything if its written out. the game doesn't support pauses and they are rarely called during engagements anyway.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2015, 09:17:19 am »
I agree with Skrimskraw about the pause but I think that If a match is lost due to a disconnection than the match should be replayed. This would be up to the ref to decide.

Offline Insio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2015, 09:28:56 am »
I'm not sure which one I'd prefer really, mainly due to the cloud issue. In my opinion people should be able to follow a cloud during pause, but I'm sure that could lead to unfair disadvantages as well. Maybe loosen the rules for pauses a bit? Let's say you're allowed to move at a low speed, but only for defensive purposes and not very far - in other words, not for spotting or getting advantages, but mainly to make sure you won't get spotted during pause. I realize this could be misused, but since we're already talking about gentlemanly behavior... This could also be a referee call.

"
CaptainBlue: Pause
CaptainRed: Paused.
Referee: (No) Position adjustments allowed. (Depending on the situation)
(Referee: No further adjustments allowed.)
CaptainBlue: Unpause
CaptainRed: Unpaused.
"

I also think only the captains should be able to call pauses since they're in many cases not even needed. If you're not spotted and get a (crew) dc, you'll in most cases be able to stay under the radar, right? It would also make it less likely that people call for pauses in the middle of an engagement, which only creates confusion.

When it comes to buffing during pauses I see no reason to forbid it, since a decent crew will have their components buffed/pre-buffed at times when pauses are allowed/suitable anyway.

I guess I answered the actual question while writing this post as well: No official pauses.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: Are official pauses needed?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2015, 12:35:38 pm »
Sounds more like we just need referees to pay attention and not make mistakes. If they call a bad pause, it's on them and not the teams. They should know where both teams are on the map and should be aware if it's ok to call a pause at that moment. If there's nothing but a cloud between them, it'd be kind of stupid to call for a pause. If shots are going back and forth, whether across the map or close range, a pause shouldn't be called.

Teams calling their own pauses has a higher chance of messing up, since they generally don't know the other teams position. By removing the ref as the control for pauses, you're likely to see more human error involved, not less. If there is a problem with the pause system, have refs trained. Make sure they know the rules, make sure they're paying attention to matches. If they can't do that, they shouldn't be reffing.