Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Lueosi on September 15, 2015, 12:48:03 pm
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Skrimskraw brought it up a few times now, so let's gather some opinions:
Please argue: Are official pauses (granted by referee) needed and why or why not? What are the benefits of having official pauses and what are the benefits of not having official pauses?
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I don't see a reason not to have them - so if someone can convince me that way I can change. Also - it would be nice if we could have a automatic pause upon lobby start to make sure everyone is loaded before the match starts. But that is just me.
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They are necessary for all the d/cing that happens in this game, where if we can get a pause, we should. Unfortunately, the client is in no position to accommodate them right now and they are a much better idea in theory than in practice, where ships float, target, and sometimes even fire. The benefits include stopping the timer while people reconnect and preventing taking advantage of that. THe drawbacks are the downtime on stream and the difficulty of actually pausing properly.
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After a chat with Guras - I have decided there is plenty reason to remove official mid-game pauses until the client can accommodate them - however this could be compensated by having an auto-pause on game start ending when both teams are ready or on a 1 minute timer. Therefore if there is lag the lobby can be restarted on a connection and both teams have time to load in. Just my 2 cents there.
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I think the best way to go about this is to have the teams unofficially agree on pauses.
Right now, there's a clear rule: In engagements/when spotted, you can't pause. Outside, you can. But Ive witnessed my fair share of situations where the engagement wasnt considered to happen even if spots went down. If a pause is called and a team feels as if it'll give the other team an advantage they can adjust accordingly during the pause because some ref won't yell at them for moving an inch. The only problem I can see with this is that if it is "unofficial" then the timer will still be up.
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If a captain disconnects it's polite to wait and keep balance. In order for this to work there needs to be clear rules on when pauses are allowed, for example only if the team is unspotted. If there's significant movement the ref should call them to a specific area (in match chat), example top right quadrant B3 facing North. Ref reminds crew not to buff or chem if they see activity.
There should be a time limit for pauses: 30 seconds (or 1 min), and a max limit of 2 pauses per player. I don't think pauses are necessary for crew. Game client limitations are irrelevant besides the fact that captains may not see the pause. The ref can send a PM and order back to position.
Stricter rules, no crew pauses, pause limits. Be polite, pauses are ok.
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Okay. First of all - I Hate politics, but when it's about future of competitive I feel I have to say something.
I don't have much time, so I will be brief: I have my reasons to say that official pause rules are bad as it is no way that referees are able to control that at the game level. Another thing is that pausing is always unfair for either the one team or for both, since engineers are able to do stuff that they normally couldn't do like overbuffing etc. I remember in previous game versions pauses also were allowing me to load heatsink into flaregun that normally wouldn't be possible, but in current let's just put that buffing as example. But the most important thing for me is that you can't pause clouds - obviously one of the most important elements in competitive gameplay. I remember plenty of cases when ref called pause during sneaking/spotting phase which occured ships losing cloud cover as they were not permitted to move along with them. Pauses can ruin whole engagement. Refs are not able to controll it properly, and finally you can get DQ just because of such stupid thing like missing chat message, because you have discussed tactics with your crew. If someone moves disqualify him! But... but someone may say, that we shouldn't disqualify teams just because they have stopped few seconds later than other. My opinion on that is - If you can't controll how or when ships will stop, then this shouldn't be case. Also things like "Move back to the point where you've been when pause was called" is just not silly, but completely stupid and screwed up idea. You can't keep rule that is not even able to function and be fully enforced.
However for those who will start talking "What about when someone disconnects" - Let's keep it as gentleman agreement between teams, not official tournament rule.
TL;DR
If you can't pause clouds, you can't pause ships.
I have full trust in Skrimskraw's competitive organizing experience. At first I had no idea like everyone else, but he did persuaded me about rightness of his words.
EDIT:
Ref reminds crew not to buff or chem if they see activity.
No. As a engineer specializing in buffing i can tell you that is not okay as buffs are constantly going down. Keep in mind game timer is still ticking and it's not frozen. Telling someone to rebuff whole ship from the beginning few seconds before you're about to engage is just not okay.
(http://i.imgur.com/OEPzzBwm.jpg)
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Overall I think pauses are necessary, but whether they are official or unofficial really depends. How would they function if they weren't official? Team captain only, or anyone on the opposing team? Is there a possibility for the opposing team to not go along with the pause?
Official pauses are kind of nice, in that they "can't" be ignored (according the rules). The ref also does a quick check to make sure the pause is valid (usually making sure a player is actually missing on one of the teams from a disconnect/crash). This makes it slightly less likely for a team to call a pause abusively. The ref can also make sure teams aren't engaged (and preferably not about to engage). Official pauses also have a time limit, to make sure the game keeps moving and everyone isn't waiting around 5+ minutes for a player who's just having a really bad day with their connection.
For unofficial, it might be a little faster in the call. When it comes to official pauses, someone has to request it, then the ref has to actually call the pause. Then they have to say they're ready for an unpause, the ref checks if the other team is ready, and the pause is off. It's quite an annoying series of steps, especially if you have a ref that's not paying attention or a little slow, or even on a little power trip. So unofficial pauses might start and stop faster, rather than a potentially significant delay from the request to the pause/unpause.
In unofficial pauses, you still have all the problems of an official pause (minus the disqualifications, which I haven't seen happen); people buffing, loading up ammo, etc. You can't pause clouds/ships, but I also don't think Muse will ever put something like that into a game, even if it does support competitive play a lot. (Maybe we could convince of a vote-pause option?) It sounds easy to just tell everyone to 'get a better connection scrub', but is that the kind of competitive community we want to support? For more competitive tournaments, I could see having no official pauses, but the SCS is more of a casual-competitive scene that supports teams of all skill level (and connection quality).
Personally I think the official pause is a little better. Even if teams try for a gentlemen's agreement, some teams just won't allow the other team to pause if they feel they have an advantage. When official pauses get screwy, it's usual a referee issue. Having refs paying attention to the match, checking the chat, not tabbing out, and making sure it's not just a moving cloud preventing a pause before calling it.
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there are absolutely no tools in order to control or call pauses correct.
there are no consequences for teams that move around during pauses, and they are often called without reason or wrongly.
It is something that varies from referee to referee meaning that you cannot rely on it.
the argument for people dc'ing is somewhat valid, but pauses cant be called during engagements anyway. + honestly the players participating are required to have pc's and connections that cna play the game. its really the team's own fault if someone dc's.
the only valid pause reason that I see is a gentlemans rule.
i think it would be better to remove the pause function to avoid confusion between refs and teams, because often teams themselves call off pauses and start moving, before the referee recognizes that the pause is over. its annoying for the ref and have no consequences.
it would be better to remove it and if teams are thinking about the timer running out during an unofficial gentleman pause, then just raise the game time to 22 minutes or something like that.
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Alright I'm convinced. No official pauses. Clouds are the reason.
I'm used to two buff engis who run and buff but only having one during a pause would skew balance. I'd say there shouldn't be engagements during a captain d/c but there are too many potential problems. The only solution is gentlemen agreements to stop movement/not engage.
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do people even know the pause rules?
there are no rules about buffing or spotting during pauses.
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I was always told to cease chem and buffs
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I've had to call for a pause before as a crew had DC'd and have paused when opponent's have called for a pause..
Personally I think everyone in the community is mature and polite enough to adhere to pause rules but...
One scs me and Fynx found ourselves in the middle of the enemy spawn, we'd just downed one of.their ships and were turning to face the next but a pause was called, during the enemy respawn timer, the enemy respawns and a.few moments pass before pause is called off, they have both ships in battle where originally they would have had one, we came out victorious and yet the pause was a major disadvantage for us as it was a situation which allowed (by coincidence) our opponents to not have any respawn timer..
Just one example of how a pause can ruin someone's day in the right scenario. But we can't add rules for every single variable that may occur...
So I'd say pauses should stay, if the rules are clear and simple and very easy to understand without confusion or people bickering about X or Y, or pauses removed...
For now no vote until I decide, but pauses can effect the balance of the match.
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I like all these arguments, but all it takes is one team to request a pause and the enemy team to not want to take it for endless salt and tons of drama. Official, enforced pauses take that out of the equation. There are a lot of great arguments here, but I keep coming back to the "what if"
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I like all these arguments, but all it takes is one team to request a pause and the enemy team to not want to take it for endless salt and tons of drama. Official, enforced pauses take that out of the equation. There are a lot of great arguments here, but I keep coming back to the "what if"
Same reason how suggestions versus stopping hardcounter lobbies tend to be exploitable by teams aswell. It would still be faster regardless if both teams agreed, and if they didnt then I dont know, at worst we may have to enforce a warning/disqualify system for a lack of sportsmanship.
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I've not experienced any salt from a pause request, had a pauses denied because of combat/spots.
Once paused at enemy request while enemy was visible and in range, but still accepted the pause...
Most salt I've seen from pauses I've been part of is after the pause...
But still undecided...
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Personally.. I actually don't care.. (like most things).. I can see the benefits of having or not having them..
But in my experience.. I have only seen 2 pauses that were really unfortunate for one of the teams.. An one was an unofficial pause(the pause was denied, but the players paused anyways, that might have ruined a good ambush... Though it was the team doing the ambush who requested the pause.
The other one just the clouds issue, where people who weren't spotted and could of been closer before being see were seen early...
I think it should just be.. If both teams agree to a pause (IE one captain from both teams says pause), the clock stops for 1min max(or is the current rule 2? I don't even know).. Otherwise no clock stop. This way the teams themselves decide.. But their is no clock penalty for being nice.
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I like pauses. Disconnects or some weird bugs can always happen and it is nice that pauses enable teams to deal with these issues even when in-game.
Pauses can cause other issues, like already mentioned, ship respawning during a pause or that the pause ends with clouds bringing one team into a disadvantageous position. Both of these could be prevented by a ref simply not allowing a pause when one ship is dead or not unpausing immediately when a team is in a more disadvantageous because of clouds. It may just be me, but I have a feeling that a lot refs don't really care about these kind of issues and just want to watch the teams kill each other, regardless of their current position, otherwise the refs would have addressed these issues to the organizers, I would imagine.
Refs have no power whatsoever to ensure that a pause is a pause, yes, but they also don't have the power over anything at all in reality. I don't see the ref's lack of ability a reason to remove a feature a tournament or event introduces, because you might as well not do the entire tournament or even to begin with for the very same reason. Really, nobody has to surrender or ready up when an invisible timer runs out, the teams just play along, all tournaments and events in GoIO are just a "gentlemen's agreement".
Refs also sometimes call pauses seemingly randomly and different refs don't always pause in the same scenarios. That is because of how simple the pause rules are. So, either trust your referee to know what's best or make your own impeccable pause ruleset for refs to use in the future.
Teams also don't instantly react to pauses and some teammembers don't read the chat. However, I do suppose it is fair to believe though that at least one out of eight people has the time to notice a change in the chat, while being outside of any engagements, and is able to tell his pilot about it via voice-chat who in return can tell his co-pilot. Although some time for teams to react should be calculated in by the ref when calling a pause.
I would also rather have an official pause than something that teams have to request from their enemy. I find it much better for players to have to deal with the ref following a very loose ruleset than for players to call other players mean names and accuse them of winning through "unmoral behaviour", when players start requesting for pauses in unacceptable situations, like when they are about to die.
Considering consequences, well, pauses are more of a convenience and the players themselves are responsible for being able to play on their own pc during the time of their match, so it is not wrong to say that it is their own fault, even when more than half of issues requiring a pause are out of people's control. I guess to make teams pay more attention to pauses they could be given a silly title when they failed to do so multiple times, like "Least Chat Attentive Team of the Week" or something, nothing mean of course, because that would be mean, although that example may already be mean, depending on oneself.
And if a ref doesn't respond at all, then the teams decide if they want to be nice and pause or just follow the rules of when a ref doesn't say anything, then the match continues normally. If the ref is not able to respond for multiple occasions, I imagine for the future it should be thought about replacing said ref or adding a secondary ref until the primary ref got his stuff back together.
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Better pause rules. One idea is to allow teams to move to nearby hard cover during a pause. If you're using clouds you wanna stay hidden. After unpause you might not have the clouds but at least you won't be in the open.
Another problem is momentum. During a pause you lose momentum which affects ships differently. To benefit the pausing team we might need a 3 second head start and maybe extra for pyra/galleon. Ref can call headstart Blue, then unpause Red.
Slow acceleration: galleon pyra, mid slow: fish, mid: mobula junker spire, very fast: squid
If you have one buff hammer you could go from buffed engines to fully buffed during a pause. Crew can agree to only maintain current buffs. I don't think drifting makes enough difference.
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there are absolutely no tools in order to control or call pauses correct.
there are no consequences for teams that move around during pauses, and they are often called without reason or wrongly.
It is something that varies from referee to referee meaning that you cannot rely on it.
the argument for people dc'ing is somewhat valid, but pauses cant be called during engagements anyway. + honestly the players participating are required to have pc's and connections that cna play the game. its really the team's own fault if someone dc's.
the only valid pause reason that I see is a gentlemans rule.
i think it would be better to remove the pause function to avoid confusion between refs and teams, because often teams themselves call off pauses and start moving, before the referee recognizes that the pause is over. its annoying for the ref and have no consequences.
it would be better to remove it and if teams are thinking about the timer running out during an unofficial gentleman pause, then just raise the game time to 22 minutes or something like that.
I have never liked pauses (hence no pauses in VIP, yes I'm aware this isn't competitive play) and had a rather large discussion about making competitions without pauses recently. Even as a competitive player, I have always found dc's more of a problem than a benefit. I agree with everything Skrim says here. The only thing I suggested adding was 20-25 seconds at the start of any match to allow for everyone to load in before starting...granted there is no feature for this so it's similar to a pause in that function BUT as long as the pilots don't get on the helm the ships wont move. This allows for any potential problems with initial loading in or people that are slower to load in.
I think part of being on a competitive team is making sure that you have members that don't dc, or at least not on any regular basis. I'm aware that the servers aren't perfect but competitive players play this game for hours on end...if they don't know if they dc frequently enough to be a problem in competitive play than they shouldn't be on a competitive team. Pauses cause way more issues with concerns to ships drifting (this can make a large difference), pauses not being called fast enough or clear enough or if teams are to allow pauses do to gentlemanly behavior, what is appropriate engagement range based on each ship build and spots...even if spots aren't down that doesn't mean that ships aren't spotted...some teams will see ships but keep them not spotted in order to keep a sneak approach.
This isn't even mentioning all the tactical issues that pauses can cause.
How I see it is a dc can cause a disadvantage to a team,agreed, but a pause can also cause a disadvantage to a team and sometimes it's the team opposite of the one calling for the pause and that seems less fair than just having the team that dc'd deal with the dc without a pause. Pauses also can cause a lot of stress to refs and some refs get flak for "bad calls".
TL:DR: Pauses are way more of a problem than a benefit.
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well question is also would teams rather have 22 min game time and have their pauses cut, with unofficial gentlemans pauses are allowed
or do they want pauses and 20 mins games, with possibility of referee or team fuck ups.
I know its not an ultimatum, but i do think cutting pauses legitimizes 22 min games to "repair" the damage of not having 2 mins to find a sub midgame.
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well question is also would teams rather have 22 min game time and have their pauses cut, with unofficial gentlemans pauses are allowed
Teams can still fuck up here and instead of a referee fucking up, a team could be trash talked by others when deciding not to be a gentleman.
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I know its not an ultimatum, but i do think cutting pauses legitimizes 22 min games to "repair" the damage of not having 2 mins to find a sub midgame.
With the extra 2 mins add that would legitimizes removing the pause.
Teams can still fuck up here and instead of a referee fucking up, a team could be trash talked by others when deciding not to be a gentleman.
If teams talk trash to the opposing team for not allowing a pause then they should not be granted a pause at all...you can't trash talk about non-gentlemanly behavior and than turn around and act "non-gentlemanly". I think that is much more an issue with community standards in competitive than an issue that would weigh in on removing or not removing pauses. A team shouldn't feel intimidated by the reproductions of not allowing a pause if they feel like it would cause their team a disadvantage. I understand that some teams could be seen as "less than gentlemanly" for not allowing a pause but this is competitive play and each team is doing what they feel is best for their interests.
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...you can't trash talk about non-gentlemanly behavior and than turn around and act "non-gentlemanly".
Guess what people actually do. They will even do this very thing, if they have no proof that there was actual non-gentlemanly behavior.
But you are right, it shouldn't have too much weight when it comes to the answering the OP's questions, if any at all. I personally just like going for an option that allows for less conflict. A ref can also be talked bad about, but will most often be adressed as "ref" and rarely by name, when it happens.
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Or maybe were just spoiled by pauses.
I find the conondrum in having or not having official pauses or not odd when i remember sunday rumbles not having pauses, same goes with other tourneys.
In those games, no pauses always had a flow in the game but at the same time, big salty behaviour because of DC's.
But at the same time, the flow never broke and made players a bit more creative.
One completely halts the ability of the players(Pausing games), and the other still allows for that ability, just its disrupted (No pauses).
And to go even further into why Pauses can be a hinderence is the flow in spectating and mindset of what is going on.
So, with alot of thinking, i feel like pauses simply makes us FEEL safe. But also destroys what was just going on.
But in the other hand, with NO PAUSES a team can charge in when they see player X disconnected which is a shitty move.
But at the same time, a skin hardened with DCing players should still be able to hold back.
Forgiving ONE player (3/4 of a ship) for DCing and then hindering the 8 players shouldn't exist.
I think official pauses shouldnt stay, and gentleman ruling pauses can make teams look like an asshole.
Lets have no Pauses because the game is very much playable without them.
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Lets have no Pauses because the game is very much playable without them.
Cheers to this mate!
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I have been reading all the feedback Again, talked to some old players, so here is my closing statement for this thread.
My initial concern for pauses is that they are a false security that just simply cannot be done correctly in guns of icarus.
some teams call pauses imidiately upon disconnect, in engagement or not. sometimes the referee agress on this and that ruins the experience for the other team and somewhat the viewers.
I can keep on listing examples of prior experience in goio, but when it comes Down to it, it doesnt really matter.
The fact is that the current state of the pause rule is irrelevant.
Pauses cannot be called in engagements.
- with this rule the referee cannot fuck up a pause as long as there are no engagement. However the referee can still fuck it up. to this end there will always be a problem with this exact rule, both teams and referees can bend the rules depending on the game they are playing, and there is no consequences for either of them.
The pause is a false security, something of a luxury that teams have in case they have a dc.
This luxury is something that they probaly should keep, but without a referee interaction.
pausing between teams should always be allowed, but official pauses causes more Chaos and problems than a pause called between teams.
simply put, there are no pause function in guns of icarus.
therefore pauses are simply impossible, as no one can keep their ship steady due to Wind, no cloud can give continued advantage etc. It's just impossible.
I still believe the pause rule should be written out of the ruleset since it is apparent that streamers, teams and referees all around dont know how the rule Works anyway.
but tbh, it wont change anything if its written out. the game doesn't support pauses and they are rarely called during engagements anyway.
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I agree with Skrimskraw about the pause but I think that If a match is lost due to a disconnection than the match should be replayed. This would be up to the ref to decide.
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I'm not sure which one I'd prefer really, mainly due to the cloud issue. In my opinion people should be able to follow a cloud during pause, but I'm sure that could lead to unfair disadvantages as well. Maybe loosen the rules for pauses a bit? Let's say you're allowed to move at a low speed, but only for defensive purposes and not very far - in other words, not for spotting or getting advantages, but mainly to make sure you won't get spotted during pause. I realize this could be misused, but since we're already talking about gentlemanly behavior... This could also be a referee call.
"
CaptainBlue: Pause
CaptainRed: Paused.
Referee: (No) Position adjustments allowed. (Depending on the situation)
(Referee: No further adjustments allowed.)
CaptainBlue: Unpause
CaptainRed: Unpaused.
"
I also think only the captains should be able to call pauses since they're in many cases not even needed. If you're not spotted and get a (crew) dc, you'll in most cases be able to stay under the radar, right? It would also make it less likely that people call for pauses in the middle of an engagement, which only creates confusion.
When it comes to buffing during pauses I see no reason to forbid it, since a decent crew will have their components buffed/pre-buffed at times when pauses are allowed/suitable anyway.
I guess I answered the actual question while writing this post as well: No official pauses.
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Sounds more like we just need referees to pay attention and not make mistakes. If they call a bad pause, it's on them and not the teams. They should know where both teams are on the map and should be aware if it's ok to call a pause at that moment. If there's nothing but a cloud between them, it'd be kind of stupid to call for a pause. If shots are going back and forth, whether across the map or close range, a pause shouldn't be called.
Teams calling their own pauses has a higher chance of messing up, since they generally don't know the other teams position. By removing the ref as the control for pauses, you're likely to see more human error involved, not less. If there is a problem with the pause system, have refs trained. Make sure they know the rules, make sure they're paying attention to matches. If they can't do that, they shouldn't be reffing.
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If there is a need for pause and teams are not spotted atm because clouds, but they will get spotted during pause because clouds will go away, ref could just order both teams to return to their spawn during pause and start again after pause is off.
Also, I think at least one pause should be available, It's not always player's fault for disconnect, sometimes it's game's fault. And losing a player, especially pilot can very well decide the match.
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I think there is a misleading understanding of the purpose and gain from official pauses in general. If we take a look at other esport titles, a lot of them have native pause support and I guess we all agree that such a kind of game implementation where the current state is completely saved and doesn't change until the game continues is perfect. But in GOIO we don't have a feature like that so let's take a look at pauses in other sports.
In football there are two common "types" of pauses: irregular play and injuries. Like in GOIO since football is not an electronic sport it is not possible to have a "fair" pause. In fact when the referee calls a pause in a football match, the game gets reset, be it by a foul, ball out of field of play or an injured player. The latter case is comparable to our situation. In football the teams can still keep playing until they shoot the ball out off the field or if they don't do it, the referee halts the game. To continue the game, the referee drops to ball between one player of each team but usually the team that had the ball before gets it by the other team (check out Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropped-ball)).
So how this compare to our pause rules? Like in any other competitive sport, there are rules to enforce equal conditions to all participants and there is at least one person to make sure the rules hold - the referee. Some of us maybe have played football or another comparable sport themselves and know, playing for fun doesn't necessarily need a referee because everyone knows the basic rules, but sometimes people disagree about interpretation of the rules and it needs a third party with a neutral point of view. Fortunately with GOIO being an esport, the game itself ensures the game is played like it is supposed to (limited amount of players, tools, ships, static spawns, valid damage etc.). But for competitive events like the SCS there is a fairly small ruleset on top of it like time limit and also game pauses. And like everything that is not directly supported by the game itself, these additional rules are to some extent an interpretation of the referee. Arguing against pauses because they are not supported by the game is not a qualified argument.
Let's look for example at the time limit: Is the game ending ten seconds too late because the referee took longer to load into the game? No, the referee says when the game ended, even if it might be 10sec too late, that's the official end. The pause rule is just an additional element that needs special treatment out of GOIO's native features - and comes with human errors.
We are all friends here but I can tell from my own experience playing football, even with friends sometimes you can get very heated if there is no neutral party to interpret some game rules. Often enough I also hated the football referee for weird decisions but that is much more better than hating the opposing team. It is the referee's fault, not the fault of the other team. Another good thing, the referee is usually seen as "instance" like Dementio already mentioned, even pulling away more personal hate. We are also already really casual with our referees often being related to a participating team.
The requirements of GOIO pause rules are fortunately much less complicated than football rules so they are much easier to accomplish and also introduce less possible mistakes by the referee.
To sum my thoughts up: I very strongly hold on official pauses, the referee is a "buffer" between teams, any negativity about rule interpretation goes to the referee (to err is still human). But as this discussion shows we should tweak them, taking into account moving cloud cover. The problem I see is sometimes teams don't know they will be visible if they stay there, maybe the referee can pm them to backup into a specific direction? Also I'm glad most votes agree with my opinion about official pauses needed.
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I'll just add my little bit of experience with pauses.
We once went through a full 2 minutes pause just arguing whether or not we can buff, chem and spot. Nobody really knew, so we decided "fuck it, they won't notice anyway". I never found out what are the real rules though.
I once used the pause to change my loadout, not knowing that's not allowed.
We once went through a whole pause WITHOUT NOTICING IT. We just roamed through the canyons, while the ref kept asking us to stop moving. We noticed when we saw "UNPAUSE".
The one time we needed pause, ref denied us because we were in an engagement in our spawn we could not get out of because the other team was simply spawn killing us too quickly.
Never liked pauses, never knew the rules around them anyway. I'm against them.