Author Topic: Gunners: Not relevant enough?  (Read 5948 times)

Offline Dr Brobotnik

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Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« on: June 13, 2015, 12:25:43 pm »
So, everybody knows that pilots and engineers are indisposeble. But what about gunners? I have been in matches where gunners are not wanted, due to the build and type of the ship.
One of the most intense matches ever today was on a squid with three engineers.
I'd like to think that it is a triangle that falls apart without all three sides. But is that true? is gunner getting phased out?
I don't know, but I'm asking. Please tell me.

Offline The Mann

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 12:28:52 pm »
Gunners are certainly not dying out. End of discussion.

Maybe if you tried other loadouts, you will see differently.

Furthermore, Squids are Squids, They are fine with a gunner, I have a gunner on my squids as a VIP, others do not. Squids are just one of 6 different ships:
  • Galleon
  • Pyramideon
  • Spire
  • Mobula
  • Goldfish
  • Squid

I guarantee, most pilots will tell you, a gunner is needed if they used a variety of ships.

Galleon for example. Gunner can bring more than one ammo, Heavy, Heatsink and Burst, Engis can sit on engines, hull, balloons and side guns. If i see an engi shoot a Hwacha on my Galleon, I will shout at them.

I rest my case.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:41:40 pm by The Mann »

Offline Dr Brobotnik

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 12:37:05 pm »
Gunners are certainly not dying out. End of discussion.

That's not very informative.

Offline The Mann

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 12:38:55 pm »
Edited.

Offline Dr Brobotnik

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 12:41:01 pm »
Edited.

Okay. I'm just of this "triangle with indisposable sides" mindset. If it's true then it's all good, and I hope it stays that way =)

Offline The Mann

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 12:42:44 pm »
Edited.

Okay. I'm just of this "triangle with indisposable sides" mindset. If it's true then it's all good, and I hope it stays that way =)

I don't understand the interpretation, you want just engis and pilots? or you want all three?

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 12:49:12 pm »
For a mine launcher and sometimes lumberjack, gunners are relevant. Unless you really need more than 2 ammos, gunners are the inferior choice because they only have a wrench. Buffed regular ammo does higher dps than greased and it's usually best to bring the most important ammo and a buff. A spanner mallet buff repairs better than a gunner and gives you more buffs allowing extra damage and survivability.

Gunner stamina gives you better arcs and a briefly quicker reload. By using up all the stamina (6.5 seconds) you can reduce a reload by a max of 1.6 seconds. Unfortunately gunner stamina refills the slowest and only +8.3% per component destroyed. I've suggested to muse to increase passive regen. Save stamina in case you need the extra arcs and only use the arcs when you are shooting (don't use stamina until you're ready to shoot).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:56:34 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Dr Brobotnik

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 12:56:32 pm »
Edited.

Okay. I'm just of this "triangle with indisposable sides" mindset. If it's true then it's all good, and I hope it stays that way =)

I don't understand the interpretation, you want just engis and pilots? or you want all three?

Just them all to always be needed.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2015, 01:02:14 pm »
Quote from: Brobotnik
Just them all to always be needed.

Gunners are for ammo utility. Plain and simple. They do lower damage, less repairs, and can't buff.
They get better arcs but cant run. Bringing a gunner is a calculated risk.

I use a gunner on squid because my main squid is mine carro mine.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:11:33 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2015, 01:35:20 pm »
Quote from: The Mann
If i see an engi shoot a Hwacha on my Galleon, I will shout at them.

It's safest to keep your engi on the hwatcha to immediately repair if it takes damage. You generally wont be using engines while shooting so the default engi position is on the second hwatcha. Even if you don't want them shooting keep them nearby to prevent disables. Guns are the main disable target against galleon and it's quick to run to engines.

Stagger firing hwatchas is a possible strategy but lowers dps. If you're not worried about disables then bring a wrench buff engi downstairs for extra dmg + engine buffs. All 3 engines can be repaired/buffed from below by standing on the ledge near the turnings.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:45:11 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2015, 02:36:36 pm »
The other point to keep into consideration, there is a very large volume of players who only want to play as a gunner, even if they're unfamiliar with ammo types, or avoid shooting the advanced weapons, this leaves us with more gunners than engineers, and the argument of gunners doing more damage would only encourage people to fight tooth and claw to he a gunner, which would only cause more unrest in the community.

When not in a competitive a competitive match I always allow one gunner on my ship, even though I understand how much effectiveness this can loose out on, it allows my friends to lower their gunner levels, though I will make them shoot lumberjack and Hades quite often...

Pies may be onto something with gunner regen buff, the problem is since stamina release, double gunners arguing with captains that gunners do more damage is more common now, even when staying calm and reasonable, it still boils down to people wanting to be a gunner because its cool...

If gunners had too big a buff, not only would it change the game mechanics too much, making glass cannons meta but it would have a knock on effect that would effect the player base..

Obviously not everyone who only wants to play as a gunner is a bad guy, and I know a fair few very worthy gunners who know the guns and ammos inside out, Geo, ZanC, Xemko and a fair few others come to mind :)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2015, 02:44:11 pm »
When buff hammer no longer increases DPS, gunners will be more relevant.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2015, 04:06:02 pm »
Quote from: Brobotnik
I have been in matches where gunners are not wanted, due to the build and type of the ship.
But is that true? is gunner getting phased out?

Gunners were always a niche role and more players are realizing this now. Stamina gives gunners the advantage of extra arcs but it doesn't last long. It's easy to use up all your stamina on the reload or wasting it to get arcs before shooting (it's easy to over-use stamina). Gunner stamina regenerates the slowest and the regen bonus from component destruction affects guns differently. Gunner stamina passive regen should be reduced to 50 seconds.

The main reason why gunners are a niche role is gun buffs. +20% damage is a huge bonus.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:09:27 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Gunners: Not relevant enough?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2015, 04:34:24 pm »
I still generally want only engineers on Squids. However, I'm not opposed to a gunner as I used to be. It just means I enforce loadouts more. Gunner means I either don't bring a buff engineer or I do but then fly very carefully. All engineers makes it much more flexible and if I'm against vet pilots, I want this setup. But this is just because of the vessel.

Stronger vessels can afford to add a gunner more often. Right now I'd say the Squid and Pyra are the only two which need all engineers. Pyra only because its a sorry piece of crap atm. Squid because engines and armor break so blasted fast.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: You can change this text??
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2015, 08:48:43 pm »
As a big fan of lochnagar (which got a huge buff with stamina turn speed) i would argue the effectiveness of gunners on any gun that can use it (Mines, Lumberjack, Heavy flak, Heavy carronade) with the addition of hwacha and maybe (trading 20% dps purely for 20 degrees of sideways arc since with charged it is the clearest single ammo gun) mercury as they get the most out of stamina arcs. For the rest i think the pure dps is probably better.

I tend to bring a gunner in every case anyway because:
As pilot the chance of getting a buff engineer who both fires his gun as much as he would as gunner and actually keeps it buffed is rather low even with a detailed explanation.
As gunner the chance of my pilot and crew understanding that im still the "gunner" is rather low and the increased effectiveness isn't worth it for the joys of no stamina, only one ammo choice and losing my aiming focus because every reload i hop off the gun and hit it with a hammer a few times.

I do generally enjoy flying on a friends junker build that brings 3 main engineers with defined roles and no main gun at all though.

I think they should really change gun buff to something longer lasting (so it can be done in an actual engineering role) and more subtle such as a moderate bonus to turn-speed, recoil jitter and maybe arcs and reload (half of stamina maybe). These would make sense as the benefits of fine tuning a gun.