Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update

[ShadedExalt]

Title says it all.  Thoughts?

[Sarabelle Marlowe]

Something myself and Alistair had noticed. Was with the 'maybe it's just us' but seems not to.

[Richard LeMoon]

Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned.

[Hilary Briss]

Feels about the same to me.

But what has grown is the rudeness.

Salt is Salt but outright rudeness is a NO.

[Riggatto]

Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned.

People have the right to be assholes as much as they want. They just shouldn't expect anyone to listen to them

[Lanliss]

Agree with most on here, community is still not quite to the point of "toxic" yet. I will however say that some who were previously just irritable are now outright furious. Nothing wrong with it, they are entitled to their opinions, this is just an observation.

[ShadedExalt]

Nah. Just a few people are louder and feel more entitled. They should be banned.

People have the right to be assholes as much as they want. They just shouldn't expect anyone to listen to them

Going to have to agree with Riggatto, here.  That said, if said asshole-ishness goes too far...

Agree with most on here, community is still not quite to the point of "toxic" yet. I will however say that some who were previously just irritable are now outright furious. Nothing wrong with it, they are entitled to their opinions, this is just an observation.

Good point, Lanliss,  Rowho's 'salt' sounds good to me.  The brine gets saltier and saltier, but it's not quite to the unlivable level yet.

[Richard LeMoon]

If you extract the salt from brine in the right way, it actually makes pretty good building materials in the form of bricks, blocks, and even wall sections.

I was not kidding on the banning. You have no rights on someone else's forum. I read some studies a few years back on the subject, which found that communities and teams that lance toxic members are far more productive than those that don't, even if those members are productive themselves. This goes beyond game development, and is a general team/community building concept.

The reason I read up on it is because I came from a game dev team that had a small but very toxic element within a good team and community/playerbase about the same size of GOIO. It was subtle, though, more festering than outright hostility. Slowly, it tuned much of the dev team away from the community and more of the community away from the devs, and fractured the team itself. I was interested in what could have prevented it.

I was one of the three top associate writers there (under the lead lore and content director), in charge of the most secret histories (the ones that players wanted the most but would never get in full). The fractures came due to some of the artists, writers, and coders siding with one part of the community and trying to work with them. Another part of the team basically had enough of the small toxic element (the loudest voices, not the most) and said "Screw them. They don't know what they want. We do." This, of course, created a rift between team members (some of which were part of the toxic element). People would often just work on their own little projects to help whichever faction they sided with. Development slowed to a crawl. In the end, I left on poor terms with the project creator and some of the people that got fed up. Most of the writers and artists left over the next year or two, taking much of the unsubmitted work with them. A great deal had to be restarted, I am told. The experience was so traumatic that I haven't really written anything since, and reflexively shy away from the lore of any game I play. Sad, really, since my primary skill is lore weaving.

Anyways, toxic people = bad. Get rid of them. There have been a few lately that would already be gone if it were up to me. They are unneeded, and have squandered the voice they had.

[Lanliss]

While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.

[Skrimskraw]

While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.

or they manage to become the reason why some players leave.

[Carn]

and now the ethical debate begins

btw Richard, that sounds like an awesome job to have (excluding the whole toxic environment) I'm a big lorehound so writing that kind of stuff would be a dream job to me

[HamsterIV]

I am impressed that Muse has been able to uphold the "Community Standards" to the extent they have. When I first read that document, I figured it was just some high minded BS and that there would be no way to control the worst elements of internet behavior. I began to realize Muse was serious every time they took moderator action and either quoted that document or linked to it in its entirety.

[Skrimskraw]

once upon a 2 years ago I remember MUSE checking the forums often, responding to not only criticism but also to general fanart, ideas and random topics that showed up here and there.

Today all I see on this forum is players attacking, blaming and demanding things from MUSE.
Like players who have been here 3-4 months acclaiming themselves to be veterans of the community with an anti new-player and elitist mindset that keeps blaming muse for their misfortune in games.
All ther eis to say about these players are simple, just stop playing the game. If you dont like the game, just leave. You arent entitled to put forward demands to muse about balance, content etc. You paid for a made game not for future updates. What you however are entitled to do if you want is give valid feedback on balance and specially on bug fixes.
Content wise this is the devs decision, and not any loud mouthed player who think he is worth more than other players in this community.
2 years ago the devs would gladly have listened to feedback on content, but today the constant content suggestions followed by throwing rocks at them for not doing what you want to happen is why they dont listen to us anymore.

As richard says there is only one way to deal with toxic people. - Remove them.

Every clan leader in this game can sign this:
If you have a member in your clan that is far out of line with the rules, or turning players inside the clan against eachother. You ban the player from your clan and fix the damage that was done.
The same goes for real life, a group of people with a person who does this is ejected from the group.
A coworker who is spreading toxic rumours, criticizing others and even questioning the leadership without reason is fired.

but here is the sad truth about all this.
MUSE has it in their power and right to remove any player from the game or forums.
THey are allowed to instantly ban someone for breaking their code of conduct etc.
But they cant.

MUSE cannot remove any players because the fear of repercussion.
Banning a player can imidiately result in someone going on a crusade trying to make muse look bad by spreading lies.
the player can give them a bad review based on them being banned for "no reason"
the player can start countless discussions on how muse are bad devs and silencing them for having an opinion, no matter how ridiculous that opinion is.

looking at that its easy to say, muse can handle this.
But here is the thing, any bad comments directed towards them, any bad review or player on a crusade is a problem. It makes them look bad and it takes them a lot of time and money to deal with it.
From my time with muse i can tell you that certain players who were removed took up to maybe 20 hours of a devs time to discuss things etc. time that could have been used on different things. - not to mention the stress level and decreasing trust in the players your game have.

I hope you dont think im an idiot now, and I dont hope you feel like I find myself more entitled to an opinion than yours.
I don't, I might have been here since release, but that doesnt mean my feedback matters more than others.
I think what needs to be done is that we stop discussing with the idiots and just focus on being the better players. Ignore them and eventually they will leave or come to terms that the game doesnt revolve around them.

again sorry for the semi-angry rant.

[Richard LeMoon]

While these people that you consider toxic may be pretty bad, I would say it is a good thing. They may be horrible at human interaction, and often blow their point way out of proportion, but they prevent the community from stagnation. If everyone just agrees with each other it would get old fast, and become a community where everyone eventually thinks it is impossible for any of them to have a bad idea. So while these people could tone it down a bit, I do not want them removed from the community entirely. Removing someone for hate speech is one thing, but voicing their opinion, however loudly they choose to do it, should be their right.

There is a difference between having an opinion that is different, and being hostile and toxic. When you don't like something, state your opinion. If you don't think it will change no matter what you say. Leave. Being louder and more angry will not change things. I know this first hand from both sides.

The people that stay around and try to rally others to their hate, MUSE is teh bad camp need to be removed. You uninstalled the game? Good for you. I hope you find a place that suits you better. Say your goodbyes and move on. Come back and visit if you want. What? You want to stay around and shriek about all the wrong things and try to get others to quit as well and do the same? Sorry, ban.

You have great ideas you don't think are being followed? Hollering and spiting vitriol will not help your cause. Ban with an invitation to come back when you learn to articulate your point better.

Speaking your opinion is a right, yes. Doing it in a toxic and demotivational manner is not. Keeping those people around will not alleviate stagnation. Rather, they will promote festering.

[David Dire]

I don't think Toxic describes it, moreso just Salty or Butthurt. This would be, of course, depending on your definition of the term, however I wouldn't compare current community setting's to other games that have devolved into absolute Toxicity.