Author Topic: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update  (Read 27384 times)

Offline Wolfgang von Drache

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2015, 03:01:50 pm »
It's mostly new players (lower than level 20 or 15) who act like this. Those of us who've been around for a while behave as maturely as expected. I do agree some more moderation is needed for now, though.

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2015, 03:14:43 pm »
I don't think Toxic describes it, moreso just Salty or Butthurt. This would be, of course, depending on your definition of the term, however I wouldn't compare current community setting's to other games that have devolved into absolute Toxicity.

No offense, David, but...

« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 03:33:01 pm by ShadedExalt »

Offline MagKel

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2015, 03:27:54 pm »
IMHO "Dealing" with toxic personalities has various implications:

First and foremost it is hard to define objectively most of the toxic behaviors. It is as old as humanity itself and still not completely explored by psychology and literature. Individuality and rhetoric plays such a preponderant role in the definition of "toxic" that it might be impossible to reach a wide consensus for each case that could be brought up, leading to dangerous semplifications. Essentially what someone calls toxic is exclusively the partial perception of a behavior warped by personal preconceptions and peer pressure. IMHO then there is never any toxicity in any community but instead a paradigm change in the way personalities react to each other and the external forces, leading to a shift in the language modules, the interaction processes and eventually the creation of a new epistemology that correctly reflect the actual state of affairs.

I'll use myself as a guinea pig to show what I mean.

Some people here like me and might be curious of me, some people instead see me as an arrogant know-it-all just dropped in this establishment, acting without the honors that others did earn in the years. Essentially some people think I am an usurper that should hold his tongue more, Toxic to a degree. Timezone differences mean I played only with an handful of the forum goers, sometimes well, sometimes bad, mostly with mediocrity. My association with Byron as [TB] also plays a big part on the way an observer could interpret my actions and words, leading to a transfer from him to me of old attrition of which I have absolute no control, neither has Byron and neither has the third party involved.

Now the problem with this mindset applied to my person is that it is right but not true. Whatever is the perception of another personality here, it must be considered false since the medium itself lacks the fundamental elements with which a functioning human defines another human according to his/her own scale of values. Essentially this forum is a peeping hole in a dim room for what it concerns personalities, behavior and general morality. Yet we rapidly adapt to the medium, acquiring more information from it than it would be efficient in the presence of another concurring medium, leading to an accurate perception of a false value. In synthesis, to whomever I appear to be an arrogant know-it-all, mildly toxic, i can say that they are right but only in the minuscule confines of their own value and ethical structure applied to this forum, essentially solipsistic.

The second problem with addressing the Toxic Elements is the spreading of consensus through straw man proclamation, rhetoric and cycle jerking. Exactly what happens here. By saying "The community is getting toxic", like minded individuals and vocal close knit minorities can push an involuntary ethical agenda, changing the consensus on a previously nonexistent problem. Once the argument is brought forward, the initial concept can evolve in the most dangerous ways. It has been already wrote about banning in a very nonchalant tone, especially ironic for the community of a game that refuses kicking or banning no matter how vocally is requested. It is very dangerous of talking about evil without a practical solution, because then the lesser evil can gain momentum and the tools developed initially for a good cause can be easily bent for individual purposes.

What I suggest is engaging in private communication when a toxic behavior is spotted (pun intended), excluding the community from the discourse so that problems can be dealt on a one-on-one basis. A truly toxic behavior will then lead to an increasing amount of personal messages, eventually leading to shift in behavioral pattern without the public shaming and antagonism that could instead lead the target in the opposite direction.

bests,
[Know-it-all]MagKel :-P
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 03:30:18 pm by MagKel »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 04:38:56 pm »
Sadly I have to agree with skrim and richard more or less completely :(

Also get the impression that muse does not participate on the forums anymore because the general tone has gotten louder, more agressive, entitled etc. It's really up to us (normal players, cas, mods) to politely tell these people to cut it out, their tone is not productive. Several time I've wanted to say it but have been warned before for backseat moderating :P

TL;DR the solution is more active moderation. I really would like muse to trust us enough to participate in general discussions again :\

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 06:50:11 pm »
I recall a recent thread where devs did step in to talk and bandy words with some amusing context. A few people yelled at them for it, saying they deserved more. I don't understand this mindset.

But again, I restate that it is still at a manageable few people. I wonder... what would happen if you had a special hidden forum called the 'Ragepit', and let people request being admitted. One of the main issues with the 'entitled rager' is they think everyone agrees with them, but are not saying anything for fear of retribution of some sort. Make a place where people can say whatever they want (aside from hate speech) with limited moderation, away from the eyes of anyone not signed up. Curious what would happen when very few people showed up.

Not saying it should be done. Just an interesting thought experiment.

Offline Riggatto

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 06:56:05 pm »
That sounds like the explanation I was given to a phenomenon called "thought germs" (it sounded more professional when the other guy said it),  in which the participants involved in a feud between two groups would have no contact with the other group, but instead would discuss among themselves how much they hated the other group.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 08:08:02 pm »
Ah. Echo chambers. They end up creating a worse version of the enemy than actually exists by feeding each other's assumptions and biases.

Would this be the video you spoke of? https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc Love that guy.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 08:13:33 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline Riggatto

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 08:31:08 pm »
That is the exact video, and it's why I think all things should be voiced at first thought. Even if the speaker thinks it is bad

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 08:34:40 pm »
I've been a part of a lot of online communities. The best ones are the ones where posts that attack people, are vitriolic, or aggressive get deleted/blanked, and people who can't learn to communicate without being aggressive or toxic are banned.

I'd like to see more active moderation. It doesn't have to be bans, even, at least at first. Just /modhat "Post has been deleted for being off-topic." /modhat "Post has been deleted for being confrontational." Just remove the offending posts. It prevents further replies, and the argument from spiraling further into negativity, or becoming more off-topic.

It has an effect. It cleans away the grime. Anyone driven off by it isn't worth having in the community anyway.

There should be no pretensions of "Freedom of Speech" or "Right to be negative."

Neither of those exist on a forum. A forum is a community, and those moderating that community have the right to regulate it as they see fit.

What you do have is the responsibility to contribute in a productive, mature, and non-hostile manner. Sure, you can disagree, and sure, you can debate. However, if you can't debate without attacking someone, resorting to insults, or strawmanning, then you probably shouldn't be talking.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 08:38:08 pm by DrTentacles »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 08:49:02 pm »
I've been a part of a lot of online communities. The best ones are the ones where posts that attack people, are vitriolic, or aggressive get deleted/blanked, and people who can't learn to communicate without being aggressive or toxic are banned.

Exactly what Muse doesn't do...ban people. Or kick buttons, or anything a dev does to keep the scum out of their communities. Myself and others have been critical of the CA system for awhile just because they have no real ability to stop toxic people. They then have to sit there and be verbally abused and take it with a smile.

Offline Xylo Wenchbane

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2015, 01:15:24 am »
Just to point out, Muse posted in another thread that they are gonna start taking a more active role in community moderation so whatever that means.

Chipping in my 2c on the topic. I don't really see too much toxicity in this community compared to say Dota 2 or EVE online, and even then those communities thrive with all the bad apples. Take EVE for example, you have players whose sole purpose is to ruin other peoples days, the 'bad guys' aren't entirely shunned by the community as a whole (save for their victims) so I'm not gonna say that some loud mouthed players are to blame for all the communities problems.

I'm sure Muse would read their feedback and go 'Oh this special little snowflake' Look at this recent update for instance, a few bittervets left and made a ruckus about it. Muse is still going on their design plan and just readjusting the reasonable things with reasonable feedback provided by the reasonable community members.

It's not bad having these bad apples in our community since they can see things which most reasonable players wont be able to see. Keep them but put a leash on the primitive behavior.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2015, 06:06:14 am »
as gilder says the ca program is now currently only teachers/guides since they have no moderation powers.
the current moderators are chosen through consideration of keyvias and their peers in the moderation group.

That is a basic for creating a strong moderation group, however only ca´s are promoted which is a concerning matter since becoming ca isnt hard at all.

besides that a long term problem we had a while ago were that the moderators had no idea how to handle situations, there were no guides etc. afaik there should be a internal guide to modding now, but its use i dont know anything off.
Also there is no educating the current moderators, it feels like they are just expected to know how to do it, rather than actively educating them in situations etc.
in my opinion prior experience should be the defining factor for choosing a mod, ca´s who have shown a good show of handling dire situations should be eligible to apply, as well as regular players who have prior experience in moderating communites etc.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 06:39:50 am »
Doesn't need to be a big manual. Lot is just common sense. I was in management at a water park and literally the company didn't spend a dime training people. Just referenced a two decade old manual but never made anyone read it (although the management before tested everyone on it). Most of the time they told us, general common sense and try not to piss the customer off too much. "Is the player being a troll?" Yes...ok kick. No...warn.

At a water park one bad guest doesn't ruin the day for everyone. If they cross the line, they get handcuffed and removed. Here, one toxic player can ruin numerous matches and they'll enjoy doing it and keep doing it as long as people are around or they aren't stopped. You can't go up to them and appease them. Muse needs to learn this. The damage they do is greater than the damage would be of kicking or banning. Literally they are like if a gang banger started flashing signs and feeling up female guests, we'd then call security and forcibly remove them and likely have them arrested by the local sheriff. Regular folks would take pictures then go back about their business. But they'd feel safer knowing the park wouldn't tolerate toxic people. There is the time to appease an unhappy person, and the time to just remove them. When their behavior crosses the line, kick, remove.

If it isn't in the TOS then update it and make people sign a new one. No one will read it anyways, just click accept. If they throw a fit, just point to the line that says,"Harassing B'Elanna is a perma ban offense and Muse games reserves the right to hire someone to put a flaming bag of dog crap on your doorstep." Problem solved!

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 07:38:53 am »
common sense is a broad term and different for everyone.
common sense for someone in england and someone in russia can be completely different.

I were to a debate where a danish politician of christian descent said that human rights should be removed, because the bible provided enough guidelines on the matter.
When asked on how to treat people she answered, just use sense. when asked what kind of sense would be reasonable, she replied common sense.

If we dont use guidelines and dont educate the people to a specific "how to" then common sense is a long shot at what moderator happen to be handling the situation.
Some moderators are happy to just kick and ban if they have a friend in need, some require more insight and proof from both parties.

i´d also argue that there is a significant difference between dealing with someone in real life, having that person handcuffed with force, and banning someone over the internet where threats are only vocal or written.

The toxicity is currently not at a state of direct harrassment, that should be a direct ban obviously. - we dont see a lot of this on the forums, maybe ingame i dont really pay attention to it if it happens. - usually this ends up with the people responsible being warned and then banned later.
And then again I do believe that people deserve the warn -> kick -> ban treatment. Banning imidiately is not a way to treat anyone. Any player can have a bad day and snap at someone its just being a person.

The usual situation I have seen about this is a player harrasses another player, the CA asks the player to stop and leave the lobby etc. Then the player insult the ca which earns him a kick from the game. The player either comes back and earns a ban or stay silent and dont come back.
I have seen many times how Vesa managed to talk trolls and harassers out of being banned by making them realize their mistakes. - its just a better way to treat people before you ban them.

But the current problem is that some players feel entitled to direct muse, aswell as criticize everything they do not only once, but repeatedly in several emails, forum posts, ingame etc. Trying to make crusades to enforce their will, or they will either leave/give a bad review/give muse a bad reputation.

Offline DoubleMDownie

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Re: Community Gets More Toxic With Every Update
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2015, 11:07:22 am »

The usual situation I have seen about this is a player harrasses another player, the CA asks the player to stop and leave the lobby etc. Then the player insult the ca which earns him a kick from the game. The player either comes back and earns a ban or stay silent and dont come back.
I have seen many times how Vesa managed to talk trolls and harassers out of being banned by making them realize their mistakes. - its just a better way to treat people before you ban them.


Community Ambassadors Do not police the game we are teachers / Guides for the game. Maybe you meant to say Mod and not CA but Ca's do not ask players to leave lobbies nor do they threaten players. If we find a troubled player the most we do is file a report or ask for a Mod to come handle the situation.  I strongly disagree with a lot of what you have said but you do make some small good points as well and that's where I will leave it at that.

o7