Author Topic: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)  (Read 22199 times)

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2015, 11:22:16 pm »
The change to ammo reloading was also a buff to buff engi, they no longer need good timing in buffing the guns, rather than having a chance to lose your ammo type and possibly 20% damage or the heavy clip effect you have a chance to fire the gun half a second late and get more buffing progress in return.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 02:33:05 am »
The only "viable" loadout is spanner mallet buff charged. Gunners simply aren't viable compared to the repair, rebuild, and buff bonus.

They rebuild and repair one or two guns. You might as well bring pipe/buff/chem for that, so they can at least fix their own gun when against fire stuff. Compared to the buff bonus, gunners might not be as viable, math-wise, but the ability to change to a more suitable ammo type always worked out in my favour.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 10:50:25 am »
I have always advocated using a gunner, a buffgineer and a main. Nothing has changed. It's the classic GOIO trifecta.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 03:38:52 pm »
Viable might not be the right word, but gunners are almost always less efficient and effective- my definition of viable. In a merc mobula duel having a spanner mallet is a big advantage because the merc is the primary disable target and a wrench on main engine is way too slow. I bring extinguisher as mobula pilot, using heatsink wastes dps.

The difference is more important on ships like meta junker or pyra. Spanner mallet buff is especially vital on heavy guns which are vulnerable to disable. I think all ships almost always need a spanner mallet buff. Gunners simply can't compete with the extra repair and dps. Most guns only need one ammo to maximize effective dps and for simple guns like gat and carro there's no argument for gunner.

I'm ok with gunners being usually useless but pretending they're not doesn't help balance. There is no question that for the majority of guns having a gunner is detrimental compared to a buff engi. The singular role of gunners is for utility which is usually unnecessary and a handicap. Besides arc buffs stamina accomplished nothing towards making gunners viable.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 05:36:02 pm »
Now that we are on page two, gather your thoughts and email MUSE at feedback@musegames.com. Get other people to do so as well.

My thoughts on stamina are as such...

Only the engineer has stamina. The other classes have skills or special abilities. They should all be renamed to reflect that.

The Gunner Skill is to change the mechanics of the gun via some unknown method. Perhaps due to more familiarity with the guns... I personally don't like some of the choices of mechanics.

Reload speed increase is OK, but not all that game changing. Since the guns are mechanically loaded, I am not sure how they are making them load faster. I would rather it be replaced with stop clip load, where Skill can be used to stop the reload and fire the number of rounds that have loaded so far. I would rather have the buff hammer do this.

Turning faster is OK. Familiarity with gun weight and muscle memory allows for faster turning. Makes sense on light guns. Not so much on heavy. But I would leave it as is. Or, also add it to the buff hammer (and get rid of the damage increase).

Pushing out of arc is not OK. It helps a little, but makes no sense even with knowledge of the gun. What are they changing to change the mechanical hardware that no one else can do? Especially engineers, since they have to fix the things and would know the mounts inside and out. If anything, this is another thing to add to the buff hammer (which it was for a short time in devapp?)

Mechanics that would make sense with ACTUAL stamina and not just a skill:

'Concentration'- Removes 30% recoil (makes up for the Heavy clip loss). The intimate knowledge of the gun allows the gunner to predict the gun recoil and compensate between shots. This would be a benefit on all ammos on most guns.

'Determination' - Gun is damaged? Use gun knowledge to hold it together to finish firing. Ignores part or all of the damage while stamina is being used, allowing the gun to be used at near full capacity. Possibly even getting on a broken gun with severely limited operation.

'Fortitude' - A little pain is worth your life, right? This allows the gunner to mount a flame-locked gun and continue firing until stamina runs out.

'Sprint' - all crew should have it, not just engineers. Perhaps make gunner and pilot sprint less. Let's face it, though, stamina is a resource you don't want to waste by running.


A gunner will never be as wanted as an engineer until they are less reliant on them. The current changes (sticky loading) actually make engies less reliant on gunners, but gunners are just as reliant (perhaps more) on engies as before.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:04:51 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2015, 06:13:29 pm »
I suppose if we go by your definition of viable you are right. But I would argue against utility being a handicap.
On the Mobula, a pipe wrench might not always bring the heavy engine back to full health, but it is not rare I find an engineer fixing it with a Mallet, now it is arguably less risky for the engineer to go there with engineer stamina.
That one best dps ammo type does exist, like Charged Rounds for the Mercury, but unlike you, I can't find the time to extinguish the gun during combat on a Mobula and Heatsink Rounds do give that one 3rd shot, which we make the best use of. Once the 3rd engineer with Charged Rounds leaves the Mercury though to shoot another gun, will he still have the ammo type with the best dps for said gun? He can certainly rebuild it quicker, but that little bit of quicker is just a little bit.

I have to agree with you, Stamina made the gunner better, but it really is only a little bit of difference. Wether Muse's goal was to make the gunner more viable or just better in and of itself, we will never know.

Continueing Gunner vs 3rd Engineer:
Regardless of how good the 3rd engineer is at repairing, rebuilding and buffing, I almost always get a gunner on my ship and we still stand victorious. On some ships, I can't always make the best use of what the gunner has to offer, the Blenderfish being one example, but it didn't really matter, ever. I once stated that when two ships, that are exactly the same with the only difference being that one has the 3rd engineer while the other has a gunner, fight against each other on the optimal range, the one with the 3rd engineer should win due to sheer dps. But dps isn't always all that matters. A Blenderfish doesn't have to kill as long as it destroys the enemy balloon. A Hwachafish doesn't have to be in inside the enemy ship to disable it, when the Hwacha has so much range (unless the nerfed Heavy clip strikes) and a Mobula doesn't always fight in a range where the Mercury can stay in arc and when two ships are exactly the same, one with gunner and one with a 3rd engineer, then it doesn't mean they have to fight each other, but can support their ally for an easier kill.

I never regretted having a gunner on any of my ships, even with a second pilot the ship will always fulfill its purpose, which is the only thing that really matters. On an Artemis, that second pilot can neither rebuild better or make use of any extra special ammo types, but the guns are so good in this game already, he only needs one shot of the Artemis to destroy a light gun. With a gunner I feel like there are more option on multiple guns, allowing for a more flexible playstyle, which gives enemies less chance of punishing my mistakes. But even then it doesn't really matter all that much, most guns are effective with normal rounds already and as long as the one who shoots can land the shots, it all comes down to piloting and coordination with the ally ship, like it always does.

Either all that or I am just lucky that I have gunners with a better accuracy and engineers that can repair better, but I am not one who trust the enemy to be worse in repairing and accuracy.

Offline Tropo

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2015, 06:23:42 pm »
clan leader of sacrilege

we once made a rule "We don’t run gunners, as a rule."

this rule was simple gunners where a Nerf and not worth taking in the old game (buff hammer+round+positioning)

they differently worth taking now even if its just for a laugh

the new stamina is pretty balanced in the sense that it work very well for the gunner and dose nothing for the engineer

and well all the pilots have it

end statement  being that if gunner where ever viable it is  now so get you achievements done now you salt dogs

« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:25:48 pm by Tropo »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2015, 12:35:17 am »
Pre stamina a buff engi blender fish was superior in every way to a gunner fish. Post stamina gunner fish has the advantage of better arcs and slightly quicker reload. Engi fish has the advantage of extra repair and buffs (+engi stamina speed).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 12:54:57 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2015, 01:27:07 am »
My suggestion (adding to skies') is to make the stamina deplete slower when the gun is reloading. That way you get the short-lived extended arcs, and a substantially faster reload instead of the meagre 2-3 seconds (on a hwacha) we have now.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2015, 07:43:30 am »
Stamina seems to last the same time for each class so I think Muse wants to keep it the same between classes. Currently using full stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds. Changing stamina duration would sure help, but without changing it the best option is to make the reload bonus more potent. For example 50% compared to 25%- allowing a max reduction of 3.2 seconds of reload.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2015, 08:56:28 am »
Stamina seems to last the same time for each class so I think Muse wants to keep it the same between classes. Currently using full stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds. Changing stamina duration would sure help, but without changing it the best option is to make the reload bonus more potent. For example 50% compared to 25%- allowing a max reduction of 3.2 seconds of reload.

You're doing the maths wrong. Stamina increases your reload SPEED, not TIME. so it wouldn't decrease the reload time by 0.25 of the stamina usage time. So, on different guns it would have a different effect. A mine launcher will be 3.2 seconds instead of 4, with Gatling it would be 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds reload, with Hwacha it would be 12.5 seconds of reload instead of 14 seconds. Or to take the extreme, a flare would be 18.38 instead of 20.

So you get anywhere between a 0.8 and 1.5 seconds of decrease in reload time, depending on the gun.

You take the reload time, if its lower or equal to the stamina usage time, you can use it throughout the entire the clip so it simplifies the calculation:

reload_time = 1 / ( 1.25*reload_speed )

When you can't use the stamina throughout the entire reload:

reload_time = stamina_usage_time + ( 1 / ( 1 - ( ( 1.25*reload_speed )*stamina_usage_time ) ) )

Also, from my tests I got some numbers concerning stamina, which will hopefully go on the article for stamina once I finish writing it for the wiki so might as well share since it could be relevant to the discussion:

*most of the values were done with a stopwatch and not with frame counting since I was happy enough with the results to not justify the pure waste of time frame counting is:

Non-natural regeneration of stamina:

-When an enemy ship dies, all crew members receive +33% of their stamina bar.
-When an engineer rebuilds a component he receives +30% of their stamina bar.
-When a gunner destroys a component he receives +8.33%(1/12) of their stamina bar.
(Pilots do not have a way of regenerating stamina other than natural regeneration of time except for the kill ship boost that all other classes already posses.)

Stamina usage durations:

-Engineers can use 3 seconds of stamina.
-Gunners can use 6.5 seconds of stamina.
-Pilots can use 4 seconds of stamina.

Stamina natural regeneration:

To fully regenerate a stamina bar:
-Engineers will have to wait 50 seconds.
-Gunners will have to wait 60 seconds.
-Pilots will have to wait 50 seconds.

Wait time to usage time ratios:
-Engineers wait 16 2/3 seconds for every 1 second of usage.
-Gunners wait 9.23 seconds for every 1 seconds of usage.
-Pilots wait 12.5 seconds for every 1 seconds of usage.


--


I like those numbers quite a bit for the next reasons:

-Pilot stamina is the most scarce due to no abnormal regeneration - It's an emergency tool.
-Engineers really do only need stamina more when things go down, so you can rebuild the components that go down in danger to gain a bit more stamina to survive more. +30% helps a lot in those situations from each rebuild, only complaint I have is that 3 seconds seem too low of a number for a more substantial usage - because lets face it, faster moving is not helpful in most situations and when it is, you run out too quickly.
-Gunners stamina is on a good number usage time wise, with low regeneration for every component destroyed - its good because it accounts for the large amount of components destroyed by hwacha.

As for normal regeneration:
-Engineers and pilots both have a lower regeneration time than the gunners. Pilots have a lower regeneration time because of no other regeneration means, so that is good. Engineer stamina will have lower regeneration time than the gunners because he will not be getting any stamina during only repairs and not rebuilds, while the gunner will be constantly getting components destroyed from the beginning of the engagement.
-Which brings us to gunners, they don't need high regeneration since from the beginning of the engagement, where they actually need the stamina, they will be partially getting it from components destroyed so it justifies low regeneration rate.

-As to +33% to all crew members, in most cases I don't see it help a lot, since you have already killed your enemy and by the time you get to the second one you already regenerated about a third of your stamina or more. But I guess its a nice way to give a positive boost to every crew member after a successful kill, and, in addition, provide for a way of faster pilot stamina regeneration.




My only conclusion is that stamina, duration-wise, normal regeneration and abnormal regeneration all seem to be pretty well balanced with the exception of the engineer's low usage duration - which I would like to be increased to 4-4.5 from 3, with regeneration rates not affected.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:27:28 am by Extirminator »

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2015, 09:45:48 am »
Sorry for double post, but it wouldn't allow me to edit the last one anymore.
I meant that gunner stamina will grant you anywhere from 0.8 to 1.62 seconds less reload time, rather than 0.8 to 1.5s.
with 1.62 decrease representing the flare, and 0.8 the mine launcher or light flak due to similar reload time of 4 seconds.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Gunner Stamina (Gunner more valid now?)
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2015, 11:59:23 am »
Actually second formula should be

reload_time = stamina_usage_time +  ( ( 1 - ( ( 1.25*reload_speed )*stamina_usage_time ) ) / reload_speed )

Thanks BlackenedPies.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 12:06:09 pm by Extirminator »