Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Richard LeMoon on May 03, 2015, 11:55:18 am
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Gunner stamina thread
Engineer stamina thread (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6131.0.html)
Pilot stamina thread (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6130.0.html)
Now that stamina is out of devapp and in full test mode, we can discuss likes/dislikes and suggestions more broadly.
I have played as both pilot and gunner since the very first day stamina hit Devapp (a few months ago), and have made many comments on it. One was that it was a game changer for pilots... which it has been. Slow ships don't get much benefit, and fast ships get a lot. Engineers, negligible. Gunners... stamina is a novelty, much like gunners themselves for most builds.
As a pilot, I have not felt any real difference in having a gunner over an engineer. As a gunner with a good pilot, I rarely use stamina, and mostly for a faster reload. Otherwise, it just does not feel useful enough.
The suggestions I kept asking for were the ability to use stamina to get on a hot/damaged gun and use it at near full ability until stamina ran out (new achievement: 'Too hot to handle.' - Kill/break X something using an overheated gun) . Perhaps even get on a broken gun with severe impairment. The other suggestion was to give stamina recoil reduction (30% or so to make up for the loss in heavy). This would benefit all ammunition on about half the guns. Remove the arc changes and put them back on ammos (I like that) With these changes, double stamina time.
So, now that stamina has seen real combat over many matches, what are your thoughts on gunner stamina? What could be improved? What is not balanced? What additions/removals would you make?
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I hate it. We never needed it. OMG please die.
This has got to be the worst stunt muse has ever pulled.
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Gunners (good ones) no longer complain about arc when its at the edge of it, and strategies around faster reloads are now at play.
With the new reload mechanic, gunners are very good at their job. Good ones that know how to hit atleast.
On ships that allow for gunners to hold more guns easily (spire, galleon, junker) benefitt alot to the point of independancy.
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When I gunned I mostly used it to get the reload quicker.
When the gun is out of arc, I just tell my pilot and he will turn me back into arc before I can really make use of Stamina, if I even have to tell him and not too rarely does Stamina not give me enough arcs anyway when the enemy is really out of arc, at least that is what my gunner experience. One of these experienced includes shooting the Hades which the front of the Squid, while the pilot, who never even crewed on such a ship before, was constantly doing the bifecta with the side Artemis.
Hwachafish and Blenderfish were the two general Goldfish loadouts. The Heavy Carronade got nerfed, making Hwachafish more preferred already and it profits even more from that gunner stamina.
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The gunner stamina gives some strange results, for example on a hwachafish you can basically only use burst now since hwacha jitter is less so you can fire burst from a longer distance and still be accurate, however having a gunner on a hwacha is really good because it reloads much faster (% increase) and the stamina refills fast, so you may be in a scenario where you want a gunner on a hwacha only using one ammo type.
That aside, I feel this is very much needed. I haven't done the math myself but I do think it is worth it having gunners on guns where a buff engi was interchangeable like on a metajunker for example, I've found the fast reload and increased arcs of a gat/hades very helpful and much more preferable over buff.
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I think gunner stamina should affect damaged guns like making them act as if they are full health and I don't think current gunner stamina has really changed anything.
From my testing it appears that using full stamina on hwatcha reload reduces it by less than 2 seconds (even with good disables this can only be done every other reload if that). The reload reduction is nowhere near enough to compete with spanner mallet buff. Gunners are better now but not viable because there's still no way to compete with the large dps and repair bonus of a spanner mallet buff.
My hwatcha testing: timed reloading and stopped as soon as it could fire (around 12.5s). Fully disabling two test dummies fills up stamina to about 80%. It can't be argued that this is comparable to spanner mallet buff. I'd say the best bonus for stamina is the arcs because reload is inconsequential compared to +20%.
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Faster reload is nice, becuase gunner is usually on a most important gun (gatling on metamidion, heavy gun on fish and spire etc.), it's certainly step in good direction.
Arcs are really meh. I thought about giving gunner also faster running ability from stamina so he's more useful in reloading many guns at once so gungie has better ammo. Except I wouldn't make it as powerful as engineer's, I'd give him sth like 50% (engineer has 85%).
Nullification of gun state (damage, overheating) also seems like a good idea.
The gunner stamina gives some strange results, for example on a hwachafish you can basically only use burst now since hwacha jitter is less so you can fire burst from a longer distance and still be accurate, however having a gunner on a hwacha is really good because it reloads much faster (% increase) and the stamina refills fast, so you may be in a scenario where you want a gunner on a hwacha only using one ammo type.
About the first part of this sentence: this is not because of stamina, this is because of heavy clip and hwacha changes. Yes, full stamina reload on hwacha is quite powerful.
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I wish to emphasize that the new reload mechanic made gunners more usefull than the stamina.
You can safely assure that a gun will have X ammo because a gunner in a different part of the ship can simply attach that ammo on a gun he wont be using.
An engineer will use a completely different ammo for when THAT time comes, making engineers have 2 ammos to choose from whenever there is a gunner on a ship.
Lets say on my spire, i have a mine launcher. My engineers reserve greased for their guns. While the gunner has lesmok he can put on the mine launcher.
I have lochnagar for the most opportune time, so he instals lesmok in it. I change it to default for a shorter range mine, and then lochnagar for an even shorter one.
Resulting in having used 3 different ammos as pilot because a gunner had 1 second of free time to instal an ammo that which he had a free space to add with.
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Yes, the sticky reload shifts the role of the gunner a little more towards munitions expert.
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I'm all for not having to babysit the reload, now I can actually fix a gun with a faster reload and still keep my ammo.
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Full stamina allows for about 6.3 seconds of use for gunners. This means that you can have a max of 1.6s reload reduction. The sound of stamina reload sure makes it sound fast, but the numbers are insignificant especially when you factor in how temporary stamina is. We need to emphasize that yes gunners are better than before but are no more viable. Gunner stamina could be buffed but I really think the best option is to give gunners two tools.
Note that having the gunner preload ammo for an engi only gives you one clip of that ammo. After that it reverts to default ammo and displays tool ammo.
(http://i.imgur.com/flbhuwT.jpg)
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Full stamina allows for about 6.3 seconds of use for gunners. This means that you can have a max of 1.6s reload reduction. The sound of stamina reload sure makes it sound fast, but the numbers are insignificant especially when you factor in how temporary stamina is. We need to emphasize that yes gunners are better than before but are no more viable. Gunner stamina could be buffed but I really think the best option is to give gunners two tools.
To me, the 3rd engineer with Mallet/Spanner/Buff makes as much "insignificant" difference as a maximum of 1.6s reload reduction. I already bring a gunner on pretty much every ship I take and now have an additional reason to do so. But I agree, 1.6s isn't much. I figure it is going to make a difference when it comes to more harass-like ships, in addition of the gunner's ability to bring multiple ammo types, but I haven't done any numbers to back it up. Without a doubt though, it closes the gap between the dps of a buff engineer and the gunner's ammo types a little bit more.
Gunners have always been viable, people just refuse to make use of their advantages, Stamina just gives them more advantages.
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I think in cases where a gunner is necessary, this is obviously a buff to gunners. Does it make gunner more desirable in cases where you wouldn't have wanted a gunner pre-stamina? Probably not. A little bit of extra arc isn't really worth it to say, put a gunner on a metamidion, or in any circumstance where you wouldn't need 3 ammo types. So yeah, this has made gunner BETTER, but not more versatile. Still gonna need gunners and not need gunners in pretty much the same exact circumstances. Though the extra arcs on a heavy carro might be worth it when you'd normally have buffgi with heavy clip....
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I agree with that. Change a large chunk of code and add features to make gunner more valid... leave the tool unchanged that makes them not. Time for the gun buff to go.
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I love having a gunner on ranged mobula: charged merc, heatsink light flak, charged/heat/loch mine; but it's not viable. The only "viable" loadout is spanner mallet buff charged. Gunners simply aren't viable compared to the repair, rebuild, and buff bonus: it's math. I say the only significant stamina bonus is the arcs because the brief reload bonus is nothing compared to a real dps buff. Gunners need a fix and stamina didn't do it or even make any real progress.
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The change to ammo reloading was also a buff to buff engi, they no longer need good timing in buffing the guns, rather than having a chance to lose your ammo type and possibly 20% damage or the heavy clip effect you have a chance to fire the gun half a second late and get more buffing progress in return.
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The only "viable" loadout is spanner mallet buff charged. Gunners simply aren't viable compared to the repair, rebuild, and buff bonus.
They rebuild and repair one or two guns. You might as well bring pipe/buff/chem for that, so they can at least fix their own gun when against fire stuff. Compared to the buff bonus, gunners might not be as viable, math-wise, but the ability to change to a more suitable ammo type always worked out in my favour.
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I have always advocated using a gunner, a buffgineer and a main. Nothing has changed. It's the classic GOIO trifecta.
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Viable might not be the right word, but gunners are almost always less efficient and effective- my definition of viable. In a merc mobula duel having a spanner mallet is a big advantage because the merc is the primary disable target and a wrench on main engine is way too slow. I bring extinguisher as mobula pilot, using heatsink wastes dps.
The difference is more important on ships like meta junker or pyra. Spanner mallet buff is especially vital on heavy guns which are vulnerable to disable. I think all ships almost always need a spanner mallet buff. Gunners simply can't compete with the extra repair and dps. Most guns only need one ammo to maximize effective dps and for simple guns like gat and carro there's no argument for gunner.
I'm ok with gunners being usually useless but pretending they're not doesn't help balance. There is no question that for the majority of guns having a gunner is detrimental compared to a buff engi. The singular role of gunners is for utility which is usually unnecessary and a handicap. Besides arc buffs stamina accomplished nothing towards making gunners viable.
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Now that we are on page two, gather your thoughts and email MUSE at feedback@musegames.com. Get other people to do so as well.
My thoughts on stamina are as such...
Only the engineer has stamina. The other classes have skills or special abilities. They should all be renamed to reflect that.
The Gunner Skill is to change the mechanics of the gun via some unknown method. Perhaps due to more familiarity with the guns... I personally don't like some of the choices of mechanics.
Reload speed increase is OK, but not all that game changing. Since the guns are mechanically loaded, I am not sure how they are making them load faster. I would rather it be replaced with stop clip load, where Skill can be used to stop the reload and fire the number of rounds that have loaded so far. I would rather have the buff hammer do this.
Turning faster is OK. Familiarity with gun weight and muscle memory allows for faster turning. Makes sense on light guns. Not so much on heavy. But I would leave it as is. Or, also add it to the buff hammer (and get rid of the damage increase).
Pushing out of arc is not OK. It helps a little, but makes no sense even with knowledge of the gun. What are they changing to change the mechanical hardware that no one else can do? Especially engineers, since they have to fix the things and would know the mounts inside and out. If anything, this is another thing to add to the buff hammer (which it was for a short time in devapp?)
Mechanics that would make sense with ACTUAL stamina and not just a skill:
'Concentration'- Removes 30% recoil (makes up for the Heavy clip loss). The intimate knowledge of the gun allows the gunner to predict the gun recoil and compensate between shots. This would be a benefit on all ammos on most guns.
'Determination' - Gun is damaged? Use gun knowledge to hold it together to finish firing. Ignores part or all of the damage while stamina is being used, allowing the gun to be used at near full capacity. Possibly even getting on a broken gun with severely limited operation.
'Fortitude' - A little pain is worth your life, right? This allows the gunner to mount a flame-locked gun and continue firing until stamina runs out.
'Sprint' - all crew should have it, not just engineers. Perhaps make gunner and pilot sprint less. Let's face it, though, stamina is a resource you don't want to waste by running.
A gunner will never be as wanted as an engineer until they are less reliant on them. The current changes (sticky loading) actually make engies less reliant on gunners, but gunners are just as reliant (perhaps more) on engies as before.
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I suppose if we go by your definition of viable you are right. But I would argue against utility being a handicap.
On the Mobula, a pipe wrench might not always bring the heavy engine back to full health, but it is not rare I find an engineer fixing it with a Mallet, now it is arguably less risky for the engineer to go there with engineer stamina.
That one best dps ammo type does exist, like Charged Rounds for the Mercury, but unlike you, I can't find the time to extinguish the gun during combat on a Mobula and Heatsink Rounds do give that one 3rd shot, which we make the best use of. Once the 3rd engineer with Charged Rounds leaves the Mercury though to shoot another gun, will he still have the ammo type with the best dps for said gun? He can certainly rebuild it quicker, but that little bit of quicker is just a little bit.
I have to agree with you, Stamina made the gunner better, but it really is only a little bit of difference. Wether Muse's goal was to make the gunner more viable or just better in and of itself, we will never know.
Continueing Gunner vs 3rd Engineer:
Regardless of how good the 3rd engineer is at repairing, rebuilding and buffing, I almost always get a gunner on my ship and we still stand victorious. On some ships, I can't always make the best use of what the gunner has to offer, the Blenderfish being one example, but it didn't really matter, ever. I once stated that when two ships, that are exactly the same with the only difference being that one has the 3rd engineer while the other has a gunner, fight against each other on the optimal range, the one with the 3rd engineer should win due to sheer dps. But dps isn't always all that matters. A Blenderfish doesn't have to kill as long as it destroys the enemy balloon. A Hwachafish doesn't have to be in inside the enemy ship to disable it, when the Hwacha has so much range (unless the nerfed Heavy clip strikes) and a Mobula doesn't always fight in a range where the Mercury can stay in arc and when two ships are exactly the same, one with gunner and one with a 3rd engineer, then it doesn't mean they have to fight each other, but can support their ally for an easier kill.
I never regretted having a gunner on any of my ships, even with a second pilot the ship will always fulfill its purpose, which is the only thing that really matters. On an Artemis, that second pilot can neither rebuild better or make use of any extra special ammo types, but the guns are so good in this game already, he only needs one shot of the Artemis to destroy a light gun. With a gunner I feel like there are more option on multiple guns, allowing for a more flexible playstyle, which gives enemies less chance of punishing my mistakes. But even then it doesn't really matter all that much, most guns are effective with normal rounds already and as long as the one who shoots can land the shots, it all comes down to piloting and coordination with the ally ship, like it always does.
Either all that or I am just lucky that I have gunners with a better accuracy and engineers that can repair better, but I am not one who trust the enemy to be worse in repairing and accuracy.
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clan leader of sacrilege
we once made a rule "We don’t run gunners, as a rule."
this rule was simple gunners where a Nerf and not worth taking in the old game (buff hammer+round+positioning)
they differently worth taking now even if its just for a laugh
the new stamina is pretty balanced in the sense that it work very well for the gunner and dose nothing for the engineer
and well all the pilots have it
end statement being that if gunner where ever viable it is now so get you achievements done now you salt dogs
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Pre stamina a buff engi blender fish was superior in every way to a gunner fish. Post stamina gunner fish has the advantage of better arcs and slightly quicker reload. Engi fish has the advantage of extra repair and buffs (+engi stamina speed).
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My suggestion (adding to skies') is to make the stamina deplete slower when the gun is reloading. That way you get the short-lived extended arcs, and a substantially faster reload instead of the meagre 2-3 seconds (on a hwacha) we have now.
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Stamina seems to last the same time for each class so I think Muse wants to keep it the same between classes. Currently using full stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds. Changing stamina duration would sure help, but without changing it the best option is to make the reload bonus more potent. For example 50% compared to 25%- allowing a max reduction of 3.2 seconds of reload.
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Stamina seems to last the same time for each class so I think Muse wants to keep it the same between classes. Currently using full stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds. Changing stamina duration would sure help, but without changing it the best option is to make the reload bonus more potent. For example 50% compared to 25%- allowing a max reduction of 3.2 seconds of reload.
You're doing the maths wrong. Stamina increases your reload SPEED, not TIME. so it wouldn't decrease the reload time by 0.25 of the stamina usage time. So, on different guns it would have a different effect. A mine launcher will be 3.2 seconds instead of 4, with Gatling it would be 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds reload, with Hwacha it would be 12.5 seconds of reload instead of 14 seconds. Or to take the extreme, a flare would be 18.38 instead of 20.
So you get anywhere between a 0.8 and 1.5 seconds of decrease in reload time, depending on the gun.
You take the reload time, if its lower or equal to the stamina usage time, you can use it throughout the entire the clip so it simplifies the calculation:
reload_time = 1 / ( 1.25*reload_speed )
When you can't use the stamina throughout the entire reload:
reload_time = stamina_usage_time + ( 1 / ( 1 - ( ( 1.25*reload_speed )*stamina_usage_time ) ) )
Also, from my tests I got some numbers concerning stamina, which will hopefully go on the article for stamina once I finish writing it for the wiki so might as well share since it could be relevant to the discussion:
*most of the values were done with a stopwatch and not with frame counting since I was happy enough with the results to not justify the pure waste of time frame counting is:
Non-natural regeneration of stamina:
-When an enemy ship dies, all crew members receive +33% of their stamina bar.
-When an engineer rebuilds a component he receives +30% of their stamina bar.
-When a gunner destroys a component he receives +8.33%(1/12) of their stamina bar.
(Pilots do not have a way of regenerating stamina other than natural regeneration of time except for the kill ship boost that all other classes already posses.)
Stamina usage durations:
-Engineers can use 3 seconds of stamina.
-Gunners can use 6.5 seconds of stamina.
-Pilots can use 4 seconds of stamina.
Stamina natural regeneration:
To fully regenerate a stamina bar:
-Engineers will have to wait 50 seconds.
-Gunners will have to wait 60 seconds.
-Pilots will have to wait 50 seconds.
Wait time to usage time ratios:
-Engineers wait 16 2/3 seconds for every 1 second of usage.
-Gunners wait 9.23 seconds for every 1 seconds of usage.
-Pilots wait 12.5 seconds for every 1 seconds of usage.
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I like those numbers quite a bit for the next reasons:
-Pilot stamina is the most scarce due to no abnormal regeneration - It's an emergency tool.
-Engineers really do only need stamina more when things go down, so you can rebuild the components that go down in danger to gain a bit more stamina to survive more. +30% helps a lot in those situations from each rebuild, only complaint I have is that 3 seconds seem too low of a number for a more substantial usage - because lets face it, faster moving is not helpful in most situations and when it is, you run out too quickly.
-Gunners stamina is on a good number usage time wise, with low regeneration for every component destroyed - its good because it accounts for the large amount of components destroyed by hwacha.
As for normal regeneration:
-Engineers and pilots both have a lower regeneration time than the gunners. Pilots have a lower regeneration time because of no other regeneration means, so that is good. Engineer stamina will have lower regeneration time than the gunners because he will not be getting any stamina during only repairs and not rebuilds, while the gunner will be constantly getting components destroyed from the beginning of the engagement.
-Which brings us to gunners, they don't need high regeneration since from the beginning of the engagement, where they actually need the stamina, they will be partially getting it from components destroyed so it justifies low regeneration rate.
-As to +33% to all crew members, in most cases I don't see it help a lot, since you have already killed your enemy and by the time you get to the second one you already regenerated about a third of your stamina or more. But I guess its a nice way to give a positive boost to every crew member after a successful kill, and, in addition, provide for a way of faster pilot stamina regeneration.
My only conclusion is that stamina, duration-wise, normal regeneration and abnormal regeneration all seem to be pretty well balanced with the exception of the engineer's low usage duration - which I would like to be increased to 4-4.5 from 3, with regeneration rates not affected.
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Sorry for double post, but it wouldn't allow me to edit the last one anymore.
I meant that gunner stamina will grant you anywhere from 0.8 to 1.62 seconds less reload time, rather than 0.8 to 1.5s.
with 1.62 decrease representing the flare, and 0.8 the mine launcher or light flak due to similar reload time of 4 seconds.
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Actually second formula should be
reload_time = stamina_usage_time + ( ( 1 - ( ( 1.25*reload_speed )*stamina_usage_time ) ) / reload_speed )
Thanks BlackenedPies.