Author Topic: Killing the community, one game at a time.  (Read 53787 times)

Offline Dementio

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2015, 04:45:50 am »
This thread is effectively stuck with the same arguments ("Vets are pub stomping!", "But we don't want to pub stomp, we do try to balance!", "Sometimes it cannot be helped so I play the damn game!") and some player vs player personal fighting, which you shouldn't do on the forum, because being nice is the Meta.

My solution for the "vets pub stomping 'n stuff"-thing is that all (semi-)experienced players stop playing the game for a month the next time a sale comes out. So all these new players can enjoy the time with each other like happy little bunnies. And if it is just to see if the vet pub stomping is actually at fault for killing the community or to see if an actual new playerbase can establish itself.

Offline Lieutenant Noir

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2015, 04:54:24 am »
To Maxy

1. I don't know how you haven't realized that commanding people to do things doesn't work after like months and months of complaining why they aren't listening.

2. Your level doesn't mean much when you treat people like that, the higher your number isn't going to mean they have to respect and revere your every command.

3. Believe it or not, it is a lot of fun to learn things by yourself. When you order noobs like that, you rob them of both their learning experience and you treat them like a machine. No one wants to be someone's puppet but they'll support a puppet master who is fun to be with.

4. Displaying that you're mad and pissed off by the fact that no one is obeying your orders is going to encourage them to piss you off even more. People don't have a lot of patience for enjoyment and they'll work with you if you show them how quick and rewarding a win is.

5. If you aren't willing to co-operate with people that you feel don't deserve to play with you, then don't play with them or at least avoid them for a while. It is not healthy to be venting all the time and no one will feel sorry for you if you keep doing it.

6. You'll be surprised at the amount of information people learn when you give them time to take it all in themselves. Even encouragement is detrimental if fed too much. If you want to teach people to "get gud", let them learn the slow way (by shutting up and letting them learn that their actions costed them the enjoyment of the entire team) it is much more effective.

7. THIS THREAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY, READ THE FUCKING MOOD. I swear your temper is infectious. Did you know that people want to hunt you down? I'm not actually against them myself and I want to feel ashamed of that. Come on man, lighten up a little.

8. Noob stomping is a thing, and the stacked side isn't entirely to blame for the ordeal. People don't want to lose for stupid reasons. There are some good folks that want to even things up and honestly I think it's better than it was before.

To everyone

Can we all get back to posting shitty memes? If we continue with the Drama I'm going back to the Dark Souls Community

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2015, 05:34:33 am »


Overwatch Clan meeting...

Offline GeoRmr

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Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2015, 08:21:40 am »
Yes new players are frustrating and yes many of them don't want to learn but if it is effecting you so much, don't play with them!

Let me just point something here.

So you're advocating that new players are frustrating and yet you attempt at some moral high ground that you can somehow play with them.
When in fact you mention vet names you implicitly play with on offpeak times to avoiding playing with them, and inevitability against them.

And its offpeak times, so not many vets are on (if any- and for not very long). No way oh great saint Kamo can indefinitely resist the siren's call and ram his own self righteousness with his own girth.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2015, 09:07:46 am »
Yes new players are frustrating and yes many of them don't want to learn but if it is effecting you so much, don't play with them!

Let me just point something here.

So you're advocating that new players are frustrating and yet you attempt at some moral high ground that you can somehow play with them.
When in fact you mention vet names you implicitly play with on offpeak times to avoiding playing with them, and inevitability against them.

And its offpeak times, so not many vets are on (if any- and for not very long). No way oh great saint Kamo can indefinitely resist the siren's call and ram his own self righteousness with his own girth.

Oh I don't play with the vets for the sole purpose of avoiding the new players to avoid frustration, that's just your assumption. We play the custom lobbies to avoid "stomping" and for balanced matches. I still play with new players and try to teach the ones who listen, if they don't listen just let them do their thing.

We all get frustrated by new players, yes, its the learning curve of the game and where possible.it should be avoided to just stay together against them.

My suggestions to you are that you personally are getting far too upset by playing with them, so I give examples of what me and others do in the hopes you'll open your eyes and see that doing the same thing repeatedly is not working for you. You should try to play more socially and show less hostility towards people in general.

I've offered this advice to you in the past and yet still your reputation of being someone who does nothing but attack new players for being just that does not change, in fact you post it admittedly on the forums, if they do not listen to you, you take bully builds for the purpose of teaching them a lesson, thus making you one person who purposefully stomps new players by your own words.

When we first met you was not so bad but over time I've seen you change from being someone I once considered a respectable player to someone who does nothing but complain about new players and makes little in the ways to improve your own playing experience.

Now please excuse me while I shove my self righteousness up my girth.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 12:18:33 pm »

 I like some new players. I also dislike some new players. Pretty much the same way I feel about old players. Just have to play with them to sort em out. I have had a lot of fun on clueless ships, as well as frustration on 'vet' ships. *shrug* Take them as you get them.

Offline Indreams

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 12:28:26 pm »
1st, is Ceresbane - Maximillian Jazzhand now? That's a cool name. (I seriously think so. Pls, don't take offense).

2nd, I'm a real fresh player (just hit 300 matches), and I've gone against vet players, usually while captaining a crew of fresh players (two-digit matches). Somehow, Rider metamidions can outmaneuver everything and Cake mines seem to be 100% accurate. Competitive players in pub matches are pretty OP. Vets do pub stomp.

3rd, However, I enjoy going off against a crew of vets. I enjoy putting together a crew of random novices and challenging the bosses. There's a certain satisfaction in teaching my lvl 2 gunner to disable a mine launcher, getting my lvl 6 engi to out-repair the super accurate artemises, and attempting to out-position the best positioners in-game.

In conclusion, I enjoy seeing stacked lobbies filled with pros and clans. I'm clanless and inexperienced. There's a certain exciting challenge and honor in playing against the best teams.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 01:33:28 pm »
3. Believe it or not, it is a lot of fun to learn things by yourself. When you order noobs like that, you rob them of both their learning experience and you treat them like a machine. No one wants to be someone's puppet but they'll support a puppet master who is fun to be with.

When I am captain I treat every one like a machine and when I am crew I expect to be treated like a machine. There in lies the fun of this game: To be a cog in a greater machine. To know that others are depending on you to do your part so that they can do theirs. To watch complete strangers work together and succeed together. The special little snow flakes who want to do it their way are the ones out of place here.

As for stacked lobbies, I will admit they are becoming more of a problem since Match Making was introduced. In my opinion the best period in GOI history for even matches were during the persistent lobby default ship shuffle period. This was because while balancing was done via ship and not player. It challenged veteran players step up their game without frustrating them with repeat losses that they have no control over.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2015, 01:37:56 pm »
3. Believe it or not, it is a lot of fun to learn things by yourself. When you order noobs like that, you rob them of both their learning experience and you treat them like a machine. No one wants to be someone's puppet but they'll support a puppet master who is fun to be with.

When I am captain I treat every one like a machine and when I am crew I expect to be treated like a machine. There in lies the fun of this game: To be a cog in a greater machine. To know that others are depending on you to do your part so that they can do theirs. To watch complete strangers work together and succeed together. The special little snow flakes who want to do it their way are the ones out of place here.

As for stacked lobbies, I will admit they are becoming more of a problem since Match Making was introduced. In my opinion the best period in GOI history for even matches were during the persistent lobby default ship shuffle period. This was because while balancing was done via ship and not player. It challenged veteran players step up their game without frustrating them with repeat losses that they have no control over.

There's a difference to being the part of a working machine that gets oils and repairs than a machine that gets threatened to be melted down or broken for scrap parts because.it was not given the chance to warm up, which os where I believe Noirs point originates from. :)

Now stop writing on the forums and get back to work!

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2015, 02:09:53 pm »

There's a difference to being the part of a working machine that gets oils and repairs than a machine that gets threatened to be melted down or broken for scrap parts because.it was not given the chance to warm up, which os where I believe Noirs point originates from. :)

Now stop writing on the forums and get back to work!

A snowflake will not function as a cog no matter how much oil and repairs you give it, where as a well made cog will function even without oil and under a lot of pleasure. I understand the importance of working with unfinished cogs so that we can have well made cogs in the future. Sometimes the best way to do this is to jam it in the machine and work it until all the bits that don't fit fall off.

Now that I have tortured that metaphor for all it is worth, I can go back to work.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2015, 02:12:31 pm »
Saluted for keeping the metaphor :)
And in many ways you're right, it all boils down to technique at the end of the day :)

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2015, 08:06:52 pm »
I'll just leave it here

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2015, 11:02:32 pm »
All right lets continue to reorient this wayward train.

4v4 Pub stompings are a problem, and I often would prefer to be playing 2v2. If you are reading this and we just kicked the crap out of a novice lobby 4v4 then my vote what to do next is almost always 2v2 matches (sometimes I just want to Crazy King, but don't be surprised if I join the enemy and try and drag some of you with me). Okay so sometimes I want a good 4v4 match though and I want to fly with at least a couple of communicative allies. Often I will join these things are part of the doomed opposition (especially crazy king where one well positioned squid can make the enemies life miserable). Sometimes I'm not in the mood.

For me the fun part of 4v4 is often the increased difficulty of commanding and controlling 4 ships at once. I've had great games with low level ally pilots against stacked lobbies just because those allies, while noobish were willing to listen and position their ships (and the stacked side of stacked lobbies never see that first engagement coming). A partial solution to this problem might be for more experienced folks to embrace this challenge.

Unfortunately I can see a few reason why more don't. Some players are asses, and I think more novice players are asses because the co-operative element of GoI tends to filter out uncooperative players. There is a correlation between being an ass, and being uncooperative. Being an ass leads to being uncooperative, being uncooperative leads to poorly positioned and run ships, poorly positioned and run ships lead to defeat, defeat leads to going back to first person shooters. Something, something, dark side.

That said other novice players don't have the importance of communication drilled into them and they don't understand why they are losing. I would like better tutorials, especially ones that made it clear losing and not working as part of a team are basically homologous. That said if you think that will be a magic bullet you are dreaming, but I don't think anyone here is so deluded. This is a complex problem which will need lots of small complex solutions.

At the moment new players think they are losing to experienced pilots with a ship full of novices because that pilot is somehow magically making the ship better. Experienced pilots make a difference, but they aren't magic, they are just keeping their crews informed and managing expectations sensibly. The 40+ next to the name don't make the ship turn no faster.

I don't think it is an obligation (if you don't want to go through the patient process of teaching different folks effectively then don't), but some players are very good at getting the novices up to speed, when they are willing to listen. I also judge these teachers by how effectively that can work with varied raw materials. Some players I know will generally do badly with a random selection of novice players. They can only teach certain types of folk. Others seem able to work with almost anyone. Kamoba would be an example of a pilot I still consider a threat even with a novice crew I don't recognize.

I don't think the problem is the matchmaker either, I think the matchmaker just doesn't and cannot solve the problem of balancing vet heavy matches.

Certainly this is true for my experiences. I have half the regulars friended now and I never get invited to a lobby I couldn't see anyway. If I wanted to ignore matchmaker and do things the way they were before I can. Nothing has really changed for me. I also suspect that while matchmaker utterly fails when faced with vets it is very successful with novice players, especially during sales when it probably helps with player retention. You cant balance 8 of the 12 veteran players online with the remaining 4 already in a match however hard you try, but you can balance 600 novices.

I don't think by and large vets intentionally go pub stomping, at least not often. Experienced players always seem happy when the matchmaker actually gives up a lobby with 16 experienced folks. It is like Christmas, in that it is fun and only comes once a year. Rest of the time you just do what you can. The problem there isn't much I can do. If I have a lobby where my allies are new but polite (perhaps even asking for advice), one of the other ships is responsive to suggestions and the third ship is crewed by morons who react to players saying things like "you probably don't want two gunners" with "shut up your teh ghey" then I already know the match outcome and there is nothing anyone, not me, or matchmaker or Kevin Bacon can do to fix it. Whatever team they are on will get crushed.

As to Rowho's point about pubstomping for XP. I really don't know anyone who does that, maybe there are some, his claim just requires one to exist so I can believe that. I always observe other reasons for this kind of behaviour. I think vets pub stomp because they want to play with their friends and are sick of uncommunicative allies, of players that don't play as a team. 4v4 is very bad for this because if there are 2-3 open slots I know odds are very good one of those open slots is going to be filled either by someone who is silent, or someone who is an abusive ass. Rowho, you and I have intentionally balanced such lobbies in the past and we suffered exactly this fate.

As for how to deal with novice players who are asses. I'm pretty sure trolling them is not the answer. If someone gets abusive I might join your enemy and aim to make the next game quick and brutal, but I'm not about to intentionally sabotage you as your ally. First it wastes my time and second that would be a breach of the community standard, and for a good reason.

Some have said playing with novices is never fun. This may be true for them, but I have lots of fun with new players. I've had frustrating times too. We all have different objectives when we play the game, and I think we are all a bit prone to assume those objectives are universal. They are not. I get a kick out of teaching a new player how to engi the main deck of a pyra. Some folks get frustrated the first time someone hits the main engine from the poop deck. Neither experience / reaction is invalid, but how we go about obtaining or avoiding those experiences matters.

As to my philosophy with the novices. They are like a car, no wait, this isn't Slashdot. I like to think there are two different approaches and you need a bit of both. You need to treat people like people with aims and desires and goals. And you need to treat them like cogs in a machine. You are trying to let everyone be their own type of cog that will work well together.

No wait, I have a better one. Novice players are like metaphors, and you need to torture them until...

No wait, that is definitely wrong.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Killing the community, one game at a time.
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2015, 03:28:41 am »
Some actual quotes:

"Don't fly mobula, it sucks!"

1: Why did you declined that loadout?
2: I don't want to fly mobula!
1: Leave then, I don't want to waste your or time
2: No, change the mobula! Take galleon!
(at this moment I wasn't sure whether he is fucking trolling me or serious; taking count on levels (1-4-3) he was serious though...)

(the whole match we were shit-talking an idiot for not accepting the loadout, not obeying orders and generally being more stupid than AI bot, which led us to a VERY costy victory)
Me: I hate people not giving a fuck...
waffleghost: I know, I know Schwalbe-
that_guy: You see, we won
Me: YOU HAVE MIC?!
waffleghost: Have you heard everything?
that_guy: Yes
waffleghost: Then why were you not listening? Why you brought mallet, wrench and buff? Why you brought incindiaries for banshee?
that_guy: I got what this ship needed, not what you wanted!
waffleghost: That's ridiculous.
that_guy: Oh, you definitely know better you faggot.
waffleghost: ...maybe because I'm a 45 level captain, with few thousand matches played.
that_guy: [leaves]
Me: Thank God he left.
waffleghost: ...Had he just reported me...?

(I explained them, I REALLY EXPLAINED, what is the tactic, and why it makes you survive if handled right)
(They still attack in absurd manner leading to 4v1 situations)
Me: I need spots.
1: Fuck you, you don't even help us
Me: It's not like I constantly break some bastards gun or armour so you can survive a bit longer.
1: (reports me after)

(match starts, MrDisaster and his brother are aboard and we have 2 level gunner)
that_guy: (takes the helm of my spire right after the beginning)
(We are begging him for 5 minutes to leave)
MrDisaster Fuck this, I'm out [leaves]
(this might've been last match of MrDisaster by the way)

Conclusion: For every single comprehending and eager to learn player you encounter 20 insolent, arrogant brainless morons.
And people are so surprised, that some higher level players have usually lust for scrub's blood, and just NEED a proper, brutal stomping.

I'm not saying that flying with noobs can't be fun. It can be, I remember my second match as captain, when players after the second match were better cooperating with me than most players I had encountered. And it's always a pleasure to have one smart, good working scrub onboard. But FFS, mostly it's a torture.

And everytime I see bunch of scrubs beating shit out of high level players, I say it was a good game.

It's a pity that those good scrubs meet fucked up scrubs which causes them to abbandon the game.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:33:45 am by Schwalbe »