Author Topic: Ammo won't stay!  (Read 13350 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 10:24:07 pm »


Depending on the boat, a vast majority of the time I dont want my gunners running around finding guns to shoot. They stick the the guns they are assigned to. If he was running around and not on the gun when he needed to be, thats a loss to you cause hes's off shooting something he shouldnt be.

Im really not seeing how any of your example pertains to him needing his "ammo to stay" when he's reloading and off the gun. And you still went back to Hwachas. Any normal Galleon would have an engineer down there on the back 2 guns. The front 2 are the gunner's, and its up to the pilot how he wants the ammo spread between those.

Gunners dont move much. At least they shouldnt be. They should be ready on the gun for the shot the pilot is lining up. Not off repairing something useless or shooting a gun they shouldnt be. The point of the ammo is to make the guns they are assigned to work at peak efficiency. His ammo doesnt need to magically load one he begins the process and hops off his gun for, really no reason.

Offline Helmic

  • Member
  • Salutes: 35
    • [NCNS]
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2013, 11:13:00 pm »
I went back to hwachas as the only example of a gun that currently allow a gunner to man more than one gun.  I wish for other guns to benefit from more movement, it's kind of boring stick to the same place al lteh time.

Offline Pickle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [AeBr]
    • 14 
    • 38
    • 31 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 05:07:18 am »
it's kind of boring stick to the same place al lteh time.

But that's the role of the Gunner.  To be predictably manning the gun(s) the Captain is bringing to bear.  My personal dislikes with Gunners is when flying a Goldfish they wander off from the front gun, on a Pyra when they drop down the ladder to man a side gun, or on a Junker when they wander up from the lower mounts to man the forward gun.  Dammit, I'm doing my best to bring the most effective combination of guns onto the target and the Gunner is not there when I do so.

I like a Gunner on a Pyra to stay on the chain gun and keep shooting it, I really like it when after a couple of clips of Heavy he says over the mic, "Right, time to spread some misery.. switching to Incendiary".

Offline Helmic

  • Member
  • Salutes: 35
    • [NCNS]
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 05:11:43 am »
That's what you, the captain, likes because that's what's effective.  As for the gunner himself, staying in one place isn't all that fun, you spend a lot of time out of arc and twiddling your thumbs.  If running around became mechanically advantageous, as it quite possibly would if ammo loading wasn't such a huge constraint, then the gunner could have his fun and you wouldn't WANT him to not have his fun.  It's the same thing as the issue with gungineers, we captains don't ask people to not play gunner because we don't think playing a gunner isn't fun (it is), but because we're put at a mechanical disadvantage by having one or two.  Whenever possible the fun way of doing things should be the competitive way of doing things.

I REALLY don't want to stick with the status quo just because that's how things are right now, I want to see some specific and nontrivial example of why keeping things the way they are now is worth not having more intuitive mechanics (currently I find myself explaining how ammo loading works A LOT when it should work as it appears, the guns animate like they're self-loading) and more freedom of movement for the gunner (and more opportunities for tactical ammo switching which is grossly underused).

Even IF the gungineer becomes a bit more useful from being able to leave their gun alone a bit longer (which I doubt would have a major impact as gungineers are only really capable of manning one specific gun and will have to stay on it anyways just to keep up DPS, the ammo loading is more of a convenience during downtime compared to the gunner's in-combat advantage), I say it's still worth the mechanics matching the animations and just making more sense.  The way it is right now just makes the game more complex without making it much deeper (if at all).

Was this tried before and removed for some specfici reason?  Has Muse commented on it and given this or that reason for not changing their minds about it?  What is Muse's stated reason for the current mechanic?  How long ago was that made, and does it still apply to the current meta?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 05:23:27 am by Helmic »

Offline Pickle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [AeBr]
    • 14 
    • 38
    • 31 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 05:26:06 am »
The gunner - stays relatively static and is for the most part focussed on the boresight and just off-boresight view but gets to shoot a lot - feels powerful
The engineers - very focussed on repair and can be very mobile making sure vital components don't go down but doesn't always see very much of the wider fight - feels important
The pilot - must maintain a wider perception of the battle than anyone else and is trying to balance the elements of combat effectiveness - feels dependent on the rest of the team

Offline Helmic

  • Member
  • Salutes: 35
    • [NCNS]
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 05:32:48 am »
That's just how things work now, though.  The gunner being a bit more mobile isn't something to be avoided, it's not like you wouldn't be able to recognize a gunner as a gunner anymore, just that the current gunner meta would change to factor in that you now have the ability to switch guns with impunity should the need arise.  You don't have to babysit guns and do that wierd little thing where you're off a gun and try to get on JUST BEFORE the animation finishes so the right ammo loads, that's gaming what seems more like a glitch or oversight than anything.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 10:14:16 am »
Quote
That's what you, the captain, likes because that's what's effective.  As for the gunner himself, staying in one place isn't all that fun, you spend a lot of time out of arc and twiddling your thumbs.  If running around became mechanically advantageous, as it quite possibly would if ammo loading wasn't such a huge constraint, then the gunner could have his fun and you wouldn't WANT him to not have his fun.  It's the same thing as the issue with gungineers, we captains don't ask people to not play gunner because we don't think playing a gunner isn't fun (it is), but because we're put at a mechanical disadvantage by having one or two.  Whenever possible the fun way of doing things should be the competitive way of doing things.

Fun is relative. Thats about all i can say about the complaint that gunning is boring because he has to stay on a gun to be at his top performance. Not all boats have multiple guns that the gunner needs to use. They benefit from higher maneuverability to keep the main gun on the target. If your gunner is out of arc all the time, there is no one that needs shooting at, or you need to rethink your piloting.

When i think of a gunner running around for guns, i think Junker or squid. Other then that, the gunner has designated guns in close proximity that he manages. If he's not on those guns when he needs to be shooting, youre either telling him to repair because youre about to die, or hes doing it wrong. This is the gunner. He doesnt need to be mobile 95% of the time.

Quote
I REALLY don't want to stick with the status quo just because that's how things are right now, I want to see some specific and nontrivial example of why keeping things the way they are now is worth not having more intuitive mechanics (currently I find myself explaining how ammo loading works A LOT when it should work as it appears, the guns animate like they're self-loading) and more freedom of movement for the gunner (and more opportunities for tactical ammo switching which is grossly underused).

Its more of the classic "dont fix what isnt broken." We defend the current system because its not broken, as you like to suggest. Its not intuitive for a gunner to load in special ammo, and then run away from the gun and go fire something else. Just because you personally think gunning is boring if you arent moving doesnt mean everyone thinks like that, nor does it mean youll be any better at gunning. Honestly it wouldnt change anything for a lot of boats that simply dont need the gunner running around in order to put out the most damage.

Quote
That's just how things work now, though.  The gunner being a bit more mobile isn't something to be avoided, it's not like you wouldn't be able to recognize a gunner as a gunner anymore, just that the current gunner meta would change to factor in that you now have the ability to switch guns with impunity should the need arise.  You don't have to babysit guns and do that wierd little thing where you're off a gun and try to get on JUST BEFORE the animation finishes so the right ammo loads, that's gaming what seems more like a glitch or oversight than anything.

So ill just use a Junker example here, and say that he just needs to preload his assigned guns, and hes free to "roam around." The only thing your change would do, is make it so he could start the short reload of special rounds into a light gun and walk away. He doesnt need to walk away, since he's going to be in arc and shooting anyway. And youre talking a few seconds for light guns to reload. Its a stretch to say he would be slightly more effective when i told him to move from gun to gun. That or him repairing his gun, which is done during reload anyway currently, and takes less time than the reload takes.

Offline awkm

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 77
    • [Muse]
    • 16 
    • 45
    • 28 
    • View Profile
    • Notes for Next Century—n4n100
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 11:55:52 am »
When you load a gun with special ammo, if you get off the gun and get back off the same ammo should be loaded into it.  Furthermore, if other people on your ship also have that same ammo it will also be still loaded into the gun.  Only in the case that you or someone goes onto a gun with a special ammo that you do not have that is loaded into the gun, a reload will be initiated.

As a gunner reloading with special ammo, you only need to be on the gun during the last frame of the reload for the special ammo to be placed it.  You can even change your mind with what ammo you load into your gun during the reload animation.  You can decide whether or not it's advantageous or not to empty your entire clip before switching ammo types or not.

The reason why this is done is due to the lack of UI in the game to notify you what ammo is loaded into a gun.  Again, adding UI and all these kind of stuff is non-trivial work on our part.  Stuff was done and it was kind of too late to move away from it without delaying the release of the game for several months.  It's not an ideal UI, I know.  It's what we have to work with, though.  So until we manage to somehow let you know what ammo is loaded into a gun before you get onto it without overloading the UI, which is quite cluttered as it is, it'll have to stay the way it is.


But in other, we want to make the gunner's skills more useful and therefore increase the effectiveness of having gunners on your ship.

Offline Gambrill

  • Member
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Cake]
    • 27 
    • 33
    • 24 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2013, 03:12:32 pm »
Hey first poster here. as an engie i've played with the special ammo while repairing. the special ammo WILL stay in the gun as long as you stay on it long enough to complete the reload. then you can run off and do other jobs and come back to some greased up rounds (or your preference)

Offline Gambrill

  • Member
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Cake]
    • 27 
    • 33
    • 24 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2013, 03:14:04 pm »
When you load a gun with special ammo, if you get off the gun and get back off the same ammo should be loaded into it.  Furthermore, if other people on your ship also have that same ammo it will also be still loaded into the gun.  Only in the case that you or someone goes onto a gun with a special ammo that you do not have that is loaded into the gun, a reload will be initiated.

As a gunner reloading with special ammo, you only need to be on the gun during the last frame of the reload for the special ammo to be placed it.  You can even change your mind with what ammo you load into your gun during the reload animation.  You can decide whether or not it's advantageous or not to empty your entire clip before switching ammo types or not.

The reason why this is done is due to the lack of UI in the game to notify you what ammo is loaded into a gun.  Again, adding UI and all these kind of stuff is non-trivial work on our part.  Stuff was done and it was kind of too late to move away from it without delaying the release of the game for several months.  It's not an ideal UI, I know.  It's what we have to work with, though.  So until we manage to somehow let you know what ammo is loaded into a gun before you get onto it without overloading the UI, which is quite cluttered as it is, it'll have to stay the way it is.


But in other, we want to make the gunner's skills more useful and therefore increase the effectiveness of having gunners on your ship.
maybe with teamwork and people communicating to tell each other whats in it? ;)

Offline Nanako

  • Member
  • Salutes: 0
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2013, 03:30:25 pm »
this bug is why i don't enjoy playing on a galleon :( since the enemy tends to flank it so often, i usually end up having to dash back and forth between the four heavy guns below deck, as an enemy goes around the ship from one side to the other.

I want to load a special ammo into each gun (usually heavy, or charged) so that i have that ammo ready. Becuase it's completely NOT adequate to take control of a hwacha and then spend the next 8 seconds loading your new ammo in while the enemy drifts across your aim, and out of your firing arc.

letting us preload guns would give the gunner something extra to do, that's always a good thing!

Offline Letus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 34
    • [SAC]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 33 
    • View Profile
Re: Ammo won't stay!
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2013, 04:12:43 pm »
Actually....
and I need to send a log next time this happens, because I'm getting irritated.

But many times, and it's much more noticeable on the lumberjack as I have to change ammo quickly on that, I would fire the last shot, and wait for the reload...but near the end of the reload I'd change to the next shot.

So it would show me at the next shot--let's say Lesmok--but it still is shooting incendiary.
Been staying at the gun the entire time, so it's not a jump-off and missed the reload deal...