Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Gorath on April 01, 2013, 11:05:13 pm
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I'm sure more than a few people have had this issue, but I don't see a post for it in the forums yet so I'll bring it up. I'm mostly just curious about how other people deal with it but also wonder if it will be patched:
When loading special rounds into the guns, you will notice that you must be seated in it with the rounds selected when the animation ceases or the ammo will not stay put. The reload will cycle back to "normal" if no one is there to give it input at the very end of the process. All fine and good, but I really wish the automated reloads would track the ammo being loaded into it and STAY. Just... just stay. It doesn't make sense to me, speaking in terms of the mechanics of the thing, that it would dump and reset the ammo. Is there a balance issue behind this?
It is a special, awful sort of evil to have your gun go empty of special rounds in the heat of battle, where you jump off to cover a key repair, and return to find that your gun has loaded normal rounds again. As a light flak gunner using heavy rounds, this is the bane of my existence 8C
Does anyone have any tips for dealing with this without having to squat on the gun during the reload process?
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This thread is a bit out of place, since it isn't a bug. It's an intended mechanic. There isn't much of a means to avoid it. Just try to jump back on the gun right before the reload ends.
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Yeah, this belongs in feature requests or game discussion since it's a balance issue. I'd like it to be changed as well, it'd make changing ammo in the first place more useful and make the gunner a bit more worthwhile.
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It's a balance issue, and no doubt done deliberately.
I'll disagree and say that I think the current mechanic should remain as it is. Including the mechanic that causes your speciality ammunition to be unloaded if any non-AI crew member steps onto the gun. This mechanic makes the crew-role of manning a gun important.
On any if my ships, if it gets to the point that the Gunner is involved in essential repairs - then it's already too late for him to be wasting time thinking about the right ammunition. The Gunner is the violinist on the Titanic - he goes down shooting. Unless the Captain tells him to do otherwise - the biggest problem I have with a Gunner is when he stops shooting and starts thinking for himself and wanders off from the gun I'm doing my damdest to keep pointing towards the enemy (that'a you gunner on a Pyra that thinks they should wander off to the side guns). If your ship isn't shooting, it might as well be dead anyway.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There's reasons to leave a gun other than to repair something else - like getting on another gun. Being able to switch ammos while doing that would provide a unique class feature to the Gunner without having to put a note somewhere in the Roles screen that Gunners get +10% damage or get exclusive access to this or that ammo. It removes some of the risk of changing ammo, you're not risking going back to vanillas should you need to hop off your gun for a quick self-repair. Can you imagine how much more useful the Gunner would be if he could change ammo AND repair his gun at the same time on something other than a Hwacha?
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Remember.. I like the Gunner role exactly as it is. You're confusing me with a Gunner-hater that feels they need a buff to be meaningful.
Speciality ammunition confers advantages - one of the penalties for that is the mechanic on reloading. Gunners need the game-intelligence to know when to trade-off a shot for a whack with a repair tool, and the game-knowledge to know whether they can achieve that during a reloading cycle (Hwacha) or must sacrifice absolute-DPS to do so (any other weapon). They also need to have the instinct to know when to hit reload mid-clip or when to reload with a different ammunition type mid-clip.
Gunner is already perceived by too many as the idiot-class for those too thick/drunk to be an Engineer, so please Muse.. don't dumb it down any further.
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This is kind of a gameplay question and suggestion in one. I put this in gameplay discussion since his final line is a question about dealing with the mechanic.
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The Gunner is the violinist on the Titanic - he goes down shooting.
Quoted for truth and epicness.
I agree with Hubert. Its a deliberate mechanic to add to the gunner game that does not need changing to "buff" a gunner. Depending on weapon, you take the risk of getting vanilla rounds or waiting on another reload if you want to repair your gun. This way, they cant just auto reload and then run around repairing or man another gun only to return and have special rounds loaded for a kill.
As Hubert put it, they dont need "dumbing down". It takes a fair bit of tweaking to make guns operate at peak performance in situations, and the gunner gives that feel currently.
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I still don't see much point in running anything but 3 engineers on any ship that isn't a junker or a galleon. I wouldn't mind a gunner buff like that myself.
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I see this mechanic as an engineer Nurf. The engineer is too powerful as it is. If they had the ability to start a load cycle with specialty ammo, run off and repair stuff, then come back to a gun with the proper ammo waiting for them, there would be even less reason to go gunner.
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An engineer nerf would refer to a change that made that role less useful, Hamster. While you're right that they could do that, it wouldn't be as useful as it would be for a gunner who could actually start juggling ammo like his class ability implies he should be doing.
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It is not a change since it has always been there (at least while I have been playing) but it does make the engineer less useful. A gungineer has to decide if they should wait for the reload to complete before fixing a component. It makes them slower at repairing or slower at shooting. Without this mechanic the engineer would be even more useful compared to a gunner.
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It also means a gunner has to stay on his gun to finish loading its ammo instead of just hopping onto another gun and shooting it. A gunner staying on one particular gun that isn't THE gun on the ship isn't playing to his full potential. A gunner that can also risk mallet repairs is also one that doesn't have as great a need to be an engineer in the first place, that gun is much less likely to go down in the first place without the other ship specifically targeting that gun. I can see a lot more strategies coming out of the ability for a single person to juggle guns and ammo than sitting in one place doing nothing waiting for ammo to load.
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Not every gun loads as slow as a Hwacha.
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Every gun loads, though, and it gets in the way from dancing around the ship going from gun to gun like a
prancing fairy battle-hardened machine of death. Scrambling around the deck amplifies that feeling that everything is in this state of controlled chaos, the heart of the game's fun.
Let me put it this way; as it is right now, an engineer can repair something or buff his own gun during reloads, given a bit of skill. A gunner, on the other hand, can at best shoot two Hwachas on a Galleon because those are two closely-placed heavy weapons with the longest reload in the game. An engineer can already run off to do repairs during reloads so long he gets back in his seat in time, a gunner suffers a penalty for switching to a different gun (which would normally give him a big incentive to bring more than one ammo even if the guns themselves only benefit from one type) as outside a Hwacha Galleon it's impossible to keep two guns loaded with special ammo at once while firing them.
Everyone is going to be able to leave a gun, yes, but the gunner will have an overall great effect with his guns versus the gungineer who can't make use of the new tactics with just his single ammo type. As for regular engineers, they'll be dealing with the effects of those improved gunners.
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Depending on the boat, a vast majority of the time I dont want my gunners running around finding guns to shoot. They stick the the guns they are assigned to. If he was running around and not on the gun when he needed to be, thats a loss to you cause hes's off shooting something he shouldnt be.
Im really not seeing how any of your example pertains to him needing his "ammo to stay" when he's reloading and off the gun. And you still went back to Hwachas. Any normal Galleon would have an engineer down there on the back 2 guns. The front 2 are the gunner's, and its up to the pilot how he wants the ammo spread between those.
Gunners dont move much. At least they shouldnt be. They should be ready on the gun for the shot the pilot is lining up. Not off repairing something useless or shooting a gun they shouldnt be. The point of the ammo is to make the guns they are assigned to work at peak efficiency. His ammo doesnt need to magically load one he begins the process and hops off his gun for, really no reason.
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I went back to hwachas as the only example of a gun that currently allow a gunner to man more than one gun. I wish for other guns to benefit from more movement, it's kind of boring stick to the same place al lteh time.
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it's kind of boring stick to the same place al lteh time.
But that's the role of the Gunner. To be predictably manning the gun(s) the Captain is bringing to bear. My personal dislikes with Gunners is when flying a Goldfish they wander off from the front gun, on a Pyra when they drop down the ladder to man a side gun, or on a Junker when they wander up from the lower mounts to man the forward gun. Dammit, I'm doing my best to bring the most effective combination of guns onto the target and the Gunner is not there when I do so.
I like a Gunner on a Pyra to stay on the chain gun and keep shooting it, I really like it when after a couple of clips of Heavy he says over the mic, "Right, time to spread some misery.. switching to Incendiary".
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That's what you, the captain, likes because that's what's effective. As for the gunner himself, staying in one place isn't all that fun, you spend a lot of time out of arc and twiddling your thumbs. If running around became mechanically advantageous, as it quite possibly would if ammo loading wasn't such a huge constraint, then the gunner could have his fun and you wouldn't WANT him to not have his fun. It's the same thing as the issue with gungineers, we captains don't ask people to not play gunner because we don't think playing a gunner isn't fun (it is), but because we're put at a mechanical disadvantage by having one or two. Whenever possible the fun way of doing things should be the competitive way of doing things.
I REALLY don't want to stick with the status quo just because that's how things are right now, I want to see some specific and nontrivial example of why keeping things the way they are now is worth not having more intuitive mechanics (currently I find myself explaining how ammo loading works A LOT when it should work as it appears, the guns animate like they're self-loading) and more freedom of movement for the gunner (and more opportunities for tactical ammo switching which is grossly underused).
Even IF the gungineer becomes a bit more useful from being able to leave their gun alone a bit longer (which I doubt would have a major impact as gungineers are only really capable of manning one specific gun and will have to stay on it anyways just to keep up DPS, the ammo loading is more of a convenience during downtime compared to the gunner's in-combat advantage), I say it's still worth the mechanics matching the animations and just making more sense. The way it is right now just makes the game more complex without making it much deeper (if at all).
Was this tried before and removed for some specfici reason? Has Muse commented on it and given this or that reason for not changing their minds about it? What is Muse's stated reason for the current mechanic? How long ago was that made, and does it still apply to the current meta?
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The gunner - stays relatively static and is for the most part focussed on the boresight and just off-boresight view but gets to shoot a lot - feels powerful
The engineers - very focussed on repair and can be very mobile making sure vital components don't go down but doesn't always see very much of the wider fight - feels important
The pilot - must maintain a wider perception of the battle than anyone else and is trying to balance the elements of combat effectiveness - feels dependent on the rest of the team
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That's just how things work now, though. The gunner being a bit more mobile isn't something to be avoided, it's not like you wouldn't be able to recognize a gunner as a gunner anymore, just that the current gunner meta would change to factor in that you now have the ability to switch guns with impunity should the need arise. You don't have to babysit guns and do that wierd little thing where you're off a gun and try to get on JUST BEFORE the animation finishes so the right ammo loads, that's gaming what seems more like a glitch or oversight than anything.
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That's what you, the captain, likes because that's what's effective. As for the gunner himself, staying in one place isn't all that fun, you spend a lot of time out of arc and twiddling your thumbs. If running around became mechanically advantageous, as it quite possibly would if ammo loading wasn't such a huge constraint, then the gunner could have his fun and you wouldn't WANT him to not have his fun. It's the same thing as the issue with gungineers, we captains don't ask people to not play gunner because we don't think playing a gunner isn't fun (it is), but because we're put at a mechanical disadvantage by having one or two. Whenever possible the fun way of doing things should be the competitive way of doing things.
Fun is relative. Thats about all i can say about the complaint that gunning is boring because he has to stay on a gun to be at his top performance. Not all boats have multiple guns that the gunner needs to use. They benefit from higher maneuverability to keep the main gun on the target. If your gunner is out of arc all the time, there is no one that needs shooting at, or you need to rethink your piloting.
When i think of a gunner running around for guns, i think Junker or squid. Other then that, the gunner has designated guns in close proximity that he manages. If he's not on those guns when he needs to be shooting, youre either telling him to repair because youre about to die, or hes doing it wrong. This is the gunner. He doesnt need to be mobile 95% of the time.
I REALLY don't want to stick with the status quo just because that's how things are right now, I want to see some specific and nontrivial example of why keeping things the way they are now is worth not having more intuitive mechanics (currently I find myself explaining how ammo loading works A LOT when it should work as it appears, the guns animate like they're self-loading) and more freedom of movement for the gunner (and more opportunities for tactical ammo switching which is grossly underused).
Its more of the classic "dont fix what isnt broken." We defend the current system because its not broken, as you like to suggest. Its not intuitive for a gunner to load in special ammo, and then run away from the gun and go fire something else. Just because you personally think gunning is boring if you arent moving doesnt mean everyone thinks like that, nor does it mean youll be any better at gunning. Honestly it wouldnt change anything for a lot of boats that simply dont need the gunner running around in order to put out the most damage.
That's just how things work now, though. The gunner being a bit more mobile isn't something to be avoided, it's not like you wouldn't be able to recognize a gunner as a gunner anymore, just that the current gunner meta would change to factor in that you now have the ability to switch guns with impunity should the need arise. You don't have to babysit guns and do that wierd little thing where you're off a gun and try to get on JUST BEFORE the animation finishes so the right ammo loads, that's gaming what seems more like a glitch or oversight than anything.
So ill just use a Junker example here, and say that he just needs to preload his assigned guns, and hes free to "roam around." The only thing your change would do, is make it so he could start the short reload of special rounds into a light gun and walk away. He doesnt need to walk away, since he's going to be in arc and shooting anyway. And youre talking a few seconds for light guns to reload. Its a stretch to say he would be slightly more effective when i told him to move from gun to gun. That or him repairing his gun, which is done during reload anyway currently, and takes less time than the reload takes.
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When you load a gun with special ammo, if you get off the gun and get back off the same ammo should be loaded into it. Furthermore, if other people on your ship also have that same ammo it will also be still loaded into the gun. Only in the case that you or someone goes onto a gun with a special ammo that you do not have that is loaded into the gun, a reload will be initiated.
As a gunner reloading with special ammo, you only need to be on the gun during the last frame of the reload for the special ammo to be placed it. You can even change your mind with what ammo you load into your gun during the reload animation. You can decide whether or not it's advantageous or not to empty your entire clip before switching ammo types or not.
The reason why this is done is due to the lack of UI in the game to notify you what ammo is loaded into a gun. Again, adding UI and all these kind of stuff is non-trivial work on our part. Stuff was done and it was kind of too late to move away from it without delaying the release of the game for several months. It's not an ideal UI, I know. It's what we have to work with, though. So until we manage to somehow let you know what ammo is loaded into a gun before you get onto it without overloading the UI, which is quite cluttered as it is, it'll have to stay the way it is.
But in other, we want to make the gunner's skills more useful and therefore increase the effectiveness of having gunners on your ship.
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Hey first poster here. as an engie i've played with the special ammo while repairing. the special ammo WILL stay in the gun as long as you stay on it long enough to complete the reload. then you can run off and do other jobs and come back to some greased up rounds (or your preference)
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When you load a gun with special ammo, if you get off the gun and get back off the same ammo should be loaded into it. Furthermore, if other people on your ship also have that same ammo it will also be still loaded into the gun. Only in the case that you or someone goes onto a gun with a special ammo that you do not have that is loaded into the gun, a reload will be initiated.
As a gunner reloading with special ammo, you only need to be on the gun during the last frame of the reload for the special ammo to be placed it. You can even change your mind with what ammo you load into your gun during the reload animation. You can decide whether or not it's advantageous or not to empty your entire clip before switching ammo types or not.
The reason why this is done is due to the lack of UI in the game to notify you what ammo is loaded into a gun. Again, adding UI and all these kind of stuff is non-trivial work on our part. Stuff was done and it was kind of too late to move away from it without delaying the release of the game for several months. It's not an ideal UI, I know. It's what we have to work with, though. So until we manage to somehow let you know what ammo is loaded into a gun before you get onto it without overloading the UI, which is quite cluttered as it is, it'll have to stay the way it is.
But in other, we want to make the gunner's skills more useful and therefore increase the effectiveness of having gunners on your ship.
maybe with teamwork and people communicating to tell each other whats in it? ;)
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this bug is why i don't enjoy playing on a galleon :( since the enemy tends to flank it so often, i usually end up having to dash back and forth between the four heavy guns below deck, as an enemy goes around the ship from one side to the other.
I want to load a special ammo into each gun (usually heavy, or charged) so that i have that ammo ready. Becuase it's completely NOT adequate to take control of a hwacha and then spend the next 8 seconds loading your new ammo in while the enemy drifts across your aim, and out of your firing arc.
letting us preload guns would give the gunner something extra to do, that's always a good thing!
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Actually....
and I need to send a log next time this happens, because I'm getting irritated.
But many times, and it's much more noticeable on the lumberjack as I have to change ammo quickly on that, I would fire the last shot, and wait for the reload...but near the end of the reload I'd change to the next shot.
So it would show me at the next shot--let's say Lesmok--but it still is shooting incendiary.
Been staying at the gun the entire time, so it's not a jump-off and missed the reload deal...