Author Topic: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande  (Read 17298 times)

Offline Spud Nick

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Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« on: December 04, 2014, 10:43:50 am »
Too strong or just fine where it is? Please discuss below.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 11:12:32 am »
That opens up alot. I mean it has been discussed alot, and making a fine thread in its pure take of the discussion... well currently i dont find it nescesarry.

But just to add into the discussion:
Yes its very strong and its use with heavy clip is a must in most cases. That is because then it can reach maximum length with all pellets hitting its target.
But some would argue other ammo type are usable but only after a closer range.

I believe the gun versus baloons in this current state is just Static.


A question that can be brought to peoples attention is "How fun is it to fire a carronade?" or "How do you fare firing a carronade in comparison to other weapons?"
And well im asuming most people will answer aproximately the same. There is no real dynamic element to this weapon. By that i mean using it in more than a few ways.
Hwacha can snipe and burst, it can also spare half its remaining shots until enemy component is repaired for another beatdown.
The artemis, as difficult at times it can be to put it in arcs, it delivers in the disabling and enough on the explosion department, the effort of disabling and having them aimed is dynamic for it enough.
The Gattling can brawl and target focus weapons or engines. How many times has your hwacha on your galleon been taken out by a gattling? It has a goal and combine it with the gattlings slow bullets.
I can list more weapons that handle differently and thus deliver a balanced game dependant on how familiar you are with the weapons.
And the carronade needs the least ammount. Making it boring, and statisticly most effecient.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 12:19:05 pm »
That opens up alot. I mean it has been discussed alot, and making a fine thread in its pure take of the discussion... well currently i dont find it nescesarry.

But just to add into the discussion:
Yes its very strong and its use with heavy clip is a must in most cases. That is because then it can reach maximum length with all pellets hitting its target.
But some would argue other ammo type are usable but only after a closer range.

I believe the gun versus baloons in this current state is just Static.


A question that can be brought to peoples attention is "How fun is it to fire a carronade?" or "How do you fare firing a carronade in comparison to other weapons?"
And well im asuming most people will answer aproximately the same. There is no real dynamic element to this weapon. By that i mean using it in more than a few ways.
Hwacha can snipe and burst, it can also spare half its remaining shots until enemy component is repaired for another beatdown.
The artemis, as difficult at times it can be to put it in arcs, it delivers in the disabling and enough on the explosion department, the effort of disabling and having them aimed is dynamic for it enough.
The Gattling can brawl and target focus weapons or engines. How many times has your hwacha on your galleon been taken out by a gattling? It has a goal and combine it with the gattlings slow bullets.
I can list more weapons that handle differently and thus deliver a balanced game dependant on how familiar you are with the weapons.
And the carronade needs the least ammount. Making it boring, and statisticly most effecient.

I disagree with your statement about it being  less dynamic because you can only use it a few ways, you talk about other weapons being more dynamic, eg, hwacha burst and heavy, without mentioning the uses of the carronade.  Lets compares it to the hwacha: you can use the carronade snipe components or for general AOE damage, just like heavyclip hwacha and burst hwacha. Breaking it down further by looking at the choice of ammunition, in a carronade you can put heavy, charged and incendiary to good use, that's 3 choices, in a hwacha what've you got? Just heavyclip and burst. If we compare damage types the hwacha has shatter and explosive, the carronade has flechette and shatter, toe to toe. The carronade is actually more dynamic and has more options.

I also think its fun to shoot, especially when spraying ships engine columns with incendiary, or sniping the guns and that soft spot behind the pyramidions balloon armor with heavyclip.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 02:10:13 pm »
It has too long of a range. Max effective range with the H carro is 400m. At 400m the H carro can destroy any balloon in the game, or almost any component, and do it in one clip or less. My problem with it's range is that it outranges any short range kill guns. The Gatling's max effective range is somewhere between 300-350m beyond that expecting my gunner to reliably strip their armor is unrealistic. Which means it doesn't matter what gun I've paired it with, my killside can't get the kill, or the disable, before we become balloon locked. I'd like to see the H carro's max range brought down to 200-300m. It is supposed to be a short range weapon. Being able to out range a gat is simply insane.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 02:37:10 pm »
I disagree with your statement about it being  less dynamic because you can only use it a few ways, you talk about other weapons being more dynamic, eg, hwacha burst and heavy, without mentioning the uses of the carronade.

Yeah i forgot to mention carronade, but i dont mean its use in terms of Ammo. Its how it changes the way you play.

Here is another thing about the hwacha, its got a long reload. Meaning you can jump out of it and do something else in the meantime. It also gives the enemy ship a way to escape just for that knowledge. The carronade does not really have a dynamicy when it comes to shooting it or using it. The only real dynamic use it has is making sure that both ships are leveled. Or to the baloon atleast. You know... the downward arc. Everything else is just shooting the baloon. Apart from shooting components which is another + point to it being more dynamic, but its mostly viable with the use of Heavy clip kinda putting it down to static use of Heavy clip again.

So when carronade is up against a hwacha, the only way the hwacha can survive is if he snipes the carronade out from its max range, or staying under it witch means the hwacha ships baloon can be targeted, but atleast the hwacha will get the chance to disable the carronade before that happens.

So not just ammo, its also how its used, fired, how one defends against it, weaknesses that makes you accomodate to other things etc. Carronade has the least in my eyes, well that is if we exclude flair.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »
It has too long of a range. Max effective range with the H carro is 400m. At 400m the H carro can destroy any balloon in the game, or almost any component, and do it in one clip or less. My problem with it's range is that it outranges any short range kill guns. The Gatling's max effective range is somewhere between 300-350m beyond that expecting my gunner to reliably strip their armor is unrealistic. Which means it doesn't matter what gun I've paired it with, my killside can't get the kill, or the disable, before we become balloon locked. I'd like to see the H carro's max range brought down to 200-300m. It is supposed to be a short range weapon. Being able to out range a gat is simply insane.

Stop using only greased ammo in a gat. Might help.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 03:03:11 pm »
Well zill, I'll be jumping on goio around 7pm est . (about 4 hrs from now) If you feel that a gat with your choice of ammo can outrange a heavy carronade, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind jumping into a blastyard and showing me how that works.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 03:16:34 pm »
Well I wont be, so feel free to do it on your own.

Apologies, I should of assumed a short reply would net the same in return.

I grow tired of knee-jerk proposals to things that potentially don't need it. Especially in the realm of disable vs kill. I'm sure someone has calculated the time it takes for a gat/mortar to kill x ship. I just know its pretty quick. Forgive me for enjoying the fact that there is an option to counter that through disabling. Even your gatling gun can disable that "op" heavy carronade.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 04:08:05 pm »
Wasn't the actual ranges:
Heavy Carronade: 425m and
Gatling: 450m?
Light Carronade was something around 325m, I think, just for comparing purposes.

I mean, of course you can use greased Gatling, but if you see that Carronade at max range, I dunno.
And then again 425m are not little, not always do you get presented with the possibility of staying at that range and grounding out the enemy.
And then more so again, you would think a heavy gun is able to beat a light gun.
And even more so, a lesmok Gatling actually isn't that bad against a Goldfish. I mean, the Goldfish's armor health is like 400 only and the Carronade can't kill as quick as a lesmok Gatling and light Flak/Banshee combination, if it stays in range.

If the range of the Carronade gets lowered, then the light Carronade might very likely be lowered too and that might decrease it's usefulness on a number of ships, which changes balance and on and on...
I don't really see a problem with the range on the gun itself. Maybe "Close Range" is not close range enough and the gap needs to be bigger, but that in itself should be discussed in another thread.


Back to the topic though, I do believe Heavy Clip on the Heavy Carronade is all you ever really need, since it has the same dps as default rounds, which is not that bad, and you are always able to snipe components with that 1 shot left, if you have to. Sniping heavy guns with any Carronade is, naturally, especially easy.
Of course that does not rule out other ammo types that give you an extra disruption effect or better dps.

Depending on what you want the gun to focus on, heavy clip is the better ammo type or not. Similar to a normal Gatling, you could outrange and "out-accurate" any other non heavy clip Gatling at range. But in close range everybody wants the greased rounds for pure dps on the enemy armor, similar one could choose the charged rounds for the Heavy Carronade and just get close enough to have the best dps and instead of using it as a disable gun, use it as a killing gun, while disabling the balloon of course.

In my opinion, the heavy clip does exactly what it should do and is fine where it is.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 10:13:40 pm »
There is a difference between max range and effective max range. With Heavy Clip is a tool that narrows the gap between these. Heavy clip hwatcha and normal hwatcha have the same max range but no one would say they are both equally useful at sniping.

Now lets look at a heavy clip heavy carro vs heavy clip  gat

In 1.66 seconds the H carronade has released its clip and is pretty much guranteed a balloon pop. You need 1200 damage to pop the balloon the this carro gives you max 1368. You're shooting at what is generally a massive unprotected target.

Now to counter it we need the gat to shoot out the carronade, a fairly small target surrounded by hull grabbing shots. This requires 20 shots hitting. Assuming a functional impossible 100% accuracy for all 20 shots, this will take. 2.28 seconds. In reality a godly gunner will probably get 75% of his shots at max range meaning he will need 3.2 seconds. However the h carronade has already long done its job.

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 11:46:41 pm »
There is a difference between max range and effective max range. With Heavy Clip is a tool that narrows the gap between these. Heavy clip hwatcha and normal hwatcha have the same max range but no one would say they are both equally useful at sniping.

Now lets look at a heavy clip heavy carro vs heavy clip  gat

In 1.66 seconds the H carronade has released its clip and is pretty much guranteed a balloon pop. You need 1200 damage to pop the balloon the this carro gives you max 1368. You're shooting at what is generally a massive unprotected target.

Now to counter it we need the gat to shoot out the carronade, a fairly small target surrounded by hull grabbing shots. This requires 20 shots hitting. Assuming a functional impossible 100% accuracy for all 20 shots, this will take. 2.28 seconds. In reality a godly gunner will probably get 75% of his shots at max range meaning he will need 3.2 seconds. However the h carronade has already long done its job.

Are we taking into consideration the rate of fire being diminished as the Hellhound takes damage? If you're up, moderately, close with greased, you're going to be putting out a lot of shots in a short amount of time, and a lot of them will hit. Basically, all of them, if you use heavy.  Assuming both weapons start firing at the same time. Also, lesmok Gat has a range of about 700 and a clip size of 57 (? off memory). 75% of 57 is 42.75, over twice (so we can assume the additional spread will make the gun only 50% accurate if we need to) as much as is need to disable the a heavy gun, while staying 275m out of it's range, if the goldie isn't barreling at you, and a Galleon is going to be even more of a sitting duck (no offence :P).

edit: holy run on sentence, Batman

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 01:13:52 am »
Actually just realized its shorter than that as the first shots already chambered. The gun shoots a shot every .83 seconds so I did 2 x .83. Inreality is basically just a little longer than .83 as its shoot, rechamber shoot (my initial calculation was rechamber, shoot rechamber shoot)

I don't think I need to take that into account due to how fast the initial accomplishes its job. Also since lesmok does not reduce jitter. Just tried shooting out a carronade with a gatling using lesmok at a range of 500 meters in sandbox. Broke armor consistently before breaking gun because of jitter.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2014, 01:15:01 am »
There is no down side to using heavy clip ammo in the heavy carronade. Even with the ammo reduction it got awhile ago you still get two shots with the carroande. Do you guys think there should be another down side when using heavy clip ammo? Perhaps a longer reload?

Offline Sprayer

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2014, 02:19:46 am »
There is a downside to the heavy clip heavy carro. You need to lead your shots more to hit what you want to hit. This may not be a problem if you want to hit the bloon, but light guns and engines pose trouble on 425m when the shot takes half a second + your ping to land.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Heavy Clip Heavy Carroande
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2014, 03:26:02 am »
Heavy hasn't slowed down shots for decades right?