Author Topic: Carronades  (Read 5660 times)

Offline Puppy Fur

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Carronades
« on: November 30, 2014, 06:13:56 pm »
So the goods and bads of carronades...

Goods:
- Good against balloon.
- Good against armor.
- Good against weapons/engines.
- Kills balloons in one small clip.
- Kills engines/weapons in one shot.
- Easy to aim.
- Releases no tracers for enemy to see.

Bads:
- Short range.
- Small clip.

---

I'd like to know what you guys think should be changed about the carronade, if anything?

Offline Nidh

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2014, 07:10:30 pm »
Heavy Carronade has medium range w/ heavy, short reload time practically negates the small clip. Actually the only thing bad about Carronades are the long ttk, and large hitbox (for heavy). Other than that... Well they're really really strong.

I'd say lower the time it takes to bring a balloon back to full hp, and lower the carronades damage a bit.

ORRRR Change heavy clip back to "reduced spread" instead of "no spread." This would hinder the carro's weaponry disabling ability and give the other ship a fighting chance.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 07:16:49 pm by Nidh »

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2014, 07:34:40 pm »
I'd say reduce the traverse speed, and keep the oneclippability, but increase reload speed substantially.  Forces you to pick between disable and popping.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2014, 09:59:26 pm »
I remember this thread, most people was against it and said it wasnt op! Oh look were we are now!

Ide say increase clip size, reduce damage proportionately.
Lets say heavy carronade now has 4 shots, but each shot is now 50% of a current heavy carronade shot.

That is to decrease its DPS. (I like this one as it makes shooting it fun and be more about disabling components)

OR

One shot but 40% faster reload. (I dont like this one)

OR

4 shots with same ammount of damage but Reload is 125% longer? (I like this one but dont like were its going)

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2014, 10:18:33 pm »
Ide say increase clip size, reduce damage proportionately.
Lets say heavy carronade now has 4 shots, but each shot is now 50% of a current heavy carronade shot.

That is to decrease its DPS. (I like this one as it makes shooting it fun and be more about disabling components.

That might actually INCREASE DPS, and bring down burst damage.  In any case, Carroes need a nerf.

Offline James T. Kirk

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 10:21:13 pm »
decrease damage, decrease balloon health. This makes it less effective against armor, but still equally good against balloon. It would also make the balloon rebuild time shorter and make mallets proportionally more effective.

Offline Indreams

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 10:31:59 pm »
I agree with people who have suggested increase clip size and proportionally lower damage. (on the twin carronade)

With the damage spread out over a longer period of time, it gives pilots time to get away, engineers time to keep the balloon up, and gunners time to disable the carronade.

The barking dog carronade seems pretty okay. I guess the only thing I have against it is that it isn't very satisfying to shoot.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 03:43:53 am »
Since it's relevant, I will drop this previously mentioned suggestion here:

Quote from: GeoRmr
Reduce the health of all balloons - Reduce the damage modifiers proportionately - Reduce the damage done by pilot tools proportionately - problem solved. Balloons still pop with 2 shots from the heavy carronade but can be rebuilt and repaired much quicker - Balloon Lock is no longer an issue but carronades are still effective at dropping ships out of arc - TaDa!
I suppose he was speaking of modifiers on armor and hull.

I somewhat like the Carronade's ability to destroy armor, but not the hull, of course.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 03:46:29 am by Dementio »

Offline Hillerton [PC]

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 07:30:02 am »
I believe that currently the carronade ans especially the heavy carronade is the only weapon that can kill on its own that does not have a high skill requirement and that I think is somewhat sad, especially with how hard to counter it is for new/newer payers.:( I do agree with everyone here who said that we need to reduce the damage of the gun. I do belive something like killing a balloon fully in 1,5 clips would be nice as that give the attacked ship time to react during the reload. Removing the possibility to destroy other weapons and engines is more or less a must in my eyes.

However I also believe that lowering the upward arc on the gun could be a good idea in addition to lowering the damage. Dodging below a carronade ship is generally exactly where they want you and allows the carronade ship to get in to a better attack position after the first dodge as all ships have balloons on the top (except ofc mob) and most guns have worse upward arc.

So how about allowing people to doge above the ship, forcing the fish to attack from the same height (much like how you dodge Artemis and Mercs)?

Offline Indreams

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 09:31:19 am »
However I also believe that lowering the upward arc on the gun could be a good idea in addition to lowering the damage. Dodging below a carronade ship is generally exactly where they want you and allows the carronade ship to get in to a better attack position after the first dodge as all ships have balloons on the top (except ofc mob) and most guns have worse upward arc.

Dunno, to me, the upward arc of the carronade is its defining characteristic because "most guns have worse upward arc"

And it seems that no balloon drops you faster than a damaged balloon. I find that, as long as I don't panic, I can usually dodge under a carronade and give my engineers time to recover. Maybe its just a reaction thing.


I do, however, completely agree with this:
I believe that currently the carronade ans especially the heavy carronade is the only weapon that can kill on its own that does not have a high skill requirement
In a 1v1 situation, the blenderfish almost always outperforms everything but a metamidion. Carronades got balloon killing, hull stripping, and gun disabling (heavy rounds) together. That's something that needs a twick.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 10:42:26 pm »
The heavy carronade is ridiculously OP against every ship other than the pyra which its only fairly effective. The fact that you can functionally take down any enemy balloon in the few seconds it takes to fire 2 shots at 400 meters (heavy clip) is insanely broken.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 05:24:32 am »
The heavy carronade is ridiculously OP against every ship other than the pyra which its only fairly effective. The fact that you can functionally take down any enemy balloon in the few seconds it takes to fire 2 shots at 400 meters (heavy clip) is insanely broken.

IMHO its not OP because it breaks the balloon, its OP because the balloon takes so long to rebuild - and then once its rebuilt takes far too long to be fully repaired meaning the pilot can't manoeuvre effectively or use pilot tools such as hydrogen in order to regain altitude advantage. (or get a shatter damage gun in arc long enough to break the carronade) A rescaling of balloon health and damage modifiers and damage reductions to pilot tools I believe would fix this issue. The new mechanic muse added this patch to increase ships speed when balloons are damaged could potentially help ships that are in balloon lock, but in its current form the difference is insignificant. Another issue is the lack of shatter damage guns that have upwards arc that could allow ships at lower altitudes to disable carronades on ships that already have height advantage over them.

TLDR the immediate effect of carronades to gain altitude advantage is still desirable - the problem is it is too easy to maintain the advantage after the first balloon break and too difficult for the enemy pilot to change the situation.

Offline Tanya Phenole

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 09:34:35 am »
I wonder if decreasing rebuild of baloon time will not turn into physics abusal.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 10:13:43 am »
No geo, stop insisting that 'just rescaling balloon health and dmg-> ez fix'. It is a fix but one that has extreme consequences to many other aspects of the game. Suddenly balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced. Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack (it already can, assuming unbuffed carro). Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments and simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns. If the 'simple' change of changing balloon health and damage values the gameplay shifts dramatically.

OT, I'd change the raw damage numbers so that each unbuffed heavy shot aimed against balloon drains exactly 51% of its' maximum health. Carronade still wins on the long run, as it should. This way though people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop, and after the first pop you have a larger time window during which to seek a chance to escape or retaliate.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Carronades
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 01:11:36 pm »
No geo, stop insisting that 'just rescaling balloon health and dmg-> ez fix'. It is a fix but one that has extreme consequences to many other aspects of the game. Suddenly balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced. Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack (it already can, assuming unbuffed carro). Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments and simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns. If the 'simple' change of changing balloon health and damage values the gameplay shifts dramatically.

OT, I'd change the raw damage numbers so that each unbuffed heavy shot aimed against balloon drains exactly 51% of its' maximum health. Carronade still wins on the long run, as it should. This way though people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop, and after the first pop you have a larger time window during which to seek a chance to escape or retaliate.

"balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced."

IMHO balloon tools are currently more punishing to use than they should be (see the many threads people have made about this in the past) So yes, this is a good thing. If this is an issue guess what - this shit can be rebalanced to the same state by maintaining the current damage done by pilot tools, it would require more immediate engineer attention but guess what - that's also a good thing because it encourages pilot engineer communication.


"Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack"

Duh, that's the fkn point.

"(it already can, assuming unbuffed carro)."

Oh, well what the fk was your point then?



"Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments."

Duh, that's the fkn point.



"..simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns."

This would not affect any of the other guns because ALL the balloon modifiers for damage types would be scaled proportionately. For example, An artemis shot to the balloon would deal the same % damage as it does currently.



"gameplay shifts dramatically."

Duh, that's the fkn point - More exotic ships are nolonger insta countered by anything with a carronade - We would likely see more mobulas in close range maps like Paritan for example.



"people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop"
This is bad, carronade is a disable weapon - disable should have immediate effect to negate kill oriented load-outs;
my change keeps this immediate effect disable philosophy while only changing the prolonged survivability aspect.


I'm insisting even harder.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 01:23:58 pm by GeoRmr »