Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Puppy Fur on November 30, 2014, 06:13:56 pm

Title: Carronades
Post by: Puppy Fur on November 30, 2014, 06:13:56 pm
So the goods and bads of carronades...

Goods:
- Good against balloon.
- Good against armor.
- Good against weapons/engines.
- Kills balloons in one small clip.
- Kills engines/weapons in one shot.
- Easy to aim.
- Releases no tracers for enemy to see.

Bads:
- Short range.
- Small clip.

---

I'd like to know what you guys think should be changed about the carronade, if anything?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Nidh on November 30, 2014, 07:10:30 pm
Heavy Carronade has medium range w/ heavy, short reload time practically negates the small clip. Actually the only thing bad about Carronades are the long ttk, and large hitbox (for heavy). Other than that... Well they're really really strong.

I'd say lower the time it takes to bring a balloon back to full hp, and lower the carronades damage a bit.

ORRRR Change heavy clip back to "reduced spread" instead of "no spread." This would hinder the carro's weaponry disabling ability and give the other ship a fighting chance.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: ShadedExalt on November 30, 2014, 07:34:40 pm
I'd say reduce the traverse speed, and keep the oneclippability, but increase reload speed substantially.  Forces you to pick between disable and popping.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Crafeksterty on November 30, 2014, 09:59:26 pm
I remember this thread, most people was against it and said it wasnt op! Oh look were we are now!

Ide say increase clip size, reduce damage proportionately.
Lets say heavy carronade now has 4 shots, but each shot is now 50% of a current heavy carronade shot.

That is to decrease its DPS. (I like this one as it makes shooting it fun and be more about disabling components)

OR

One shot but 40% faster reload. (I dont like this one)

OR

4 shots with same ammount of damage but Reload is 125% longer? (I like this one but dont like were its going)
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: ShadedExalt on November 30, 2014, 10:18:33 pm
Ide say increase clip size, reduce damage proportionately.
Lets say heavy carronade now has 4 shots, but each shot is now 50% of a current heavy carronade shot.

That is to decrease its DPS. (I like this one as it makes shooting it fun and be more about disabling components.

That might actually INCREASE DPS, and bring down burst damage.  In any case, Carroes need a nerf.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: James T. Kirk on November 30, 2014, 10:21:13 pm
decrease damage, decrease balloon health. This makes it less effective against armor, but still equally good against balloon. It would also make the balloon rebuild time shorter and make mallets proportionally more effective.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Indreams on November 30, 2014, 10:31:59 pm
I agree with people who have suggested increase clip size and proportionally lower damage. (on the twin carronade)

With the damage spread out over a longer period of time, it gives pilots time to get away, engineers time to keep the balloon up, and gunners time to disable the carronade.

The barking dog carronade seems pretty okay. I guess the only thing I have against it is that it isn't very satisfying to shoot.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Dementio on December 01, 2014, 03:43:53 am
Since it's relevant, I will drop this previously mentioned suggestion here:

Quote from: GeoRmr
Reduce the health of all balloons - Reduce the damage modifiers proportionately - Reduce the damage done by pilot tools proportionately - problem solved. Balloons still pop with 2 shots from the heavy carronade but can be rebuilt and repaired much quicker - Balloon Lock is no longer an issue but carronades are still effective at dropping ships out of arc - TaDa!
I suppose he was speaking of modifiers on armor and hull.

I somewhat like the Carronade's ability to destroy armor, but not the hull, of course.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Hillerton [PC] on December 01, 2014, 07:30:02 am
I believe that currently the carronade ans especially the heavy carronade is the only weapon that can kill on its own that does not have a high skill requirement and that I think is somewhat sad, especially with how hard to counter it is for new/newer payers.:( I do agree with everyone here who said that we need to reduce the damage of the gun. I do belive something like killing a balloon fully in 1,5 clips would be nice as that give the attacked ship time to react during the reload. Removing the possibility to destroy other weapons and engines is more or less a must in my eyes.

However I also believe that lowering the upward arc on the gun could be a good idea in addition to lowering the damage. Dodging below a carronade ship is generally exactly where they want you and allows the carronade ship to get in to a better attack position after the first dodge as all ships have balloons on the top (except ofc mob) and most guns have worse upward arc.

So how about allowing people to doge above the ship, forcing the fish to attack from the same height (much like how you dodge Artemis and Mercs)?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Indreams on December 01, 2014, 09:31:19 am
However I also believe that lowering the upward arc on the gun could be a good idea in addition to lowering the damage. Dodging below a carronade ship is generally exactly where they want you and allows the carronade ship to get in to a better attack position after the first dodge as all ships have balloons on the top (except ofc mob) and most guns have worse upward arc.

Dunno, to me, the upward arc of the carronade is its defining characteristic because "most guns have worse upward arc"

And it seems that no balloon drops you faster than a damaged balloon. I find that, as long as I don't panic, I can usually dodge under a carronade and give my engineers time to recover. Maybe its just a reaction thing.


I do, however, completely agree with this:
I believe that currently the carronade ans especially the heavy carronade is the only weapon that can kill on its own that does not have a high skill requirement
In a 1v1 situation, the blenderfish almost always outperforms everything but a metamidion. Carronades got balloon killing, hull stripping, and gun disabling (heavy rounds) together. That's something that needs a twick.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 01, 2014, 10:42:26 pm
The heavy carronade is ridiculously OP against every ship other than the pyra which its only fairly effective. The fact that you can functionally take down any enemy balloon in the few seconds it takes to fire 2 shots at 400 meters (heavy clip) is insanely broken.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: GeoRmr on December 02, 2014, 05:24:32 am
The heavy carronade is ridiculously OP against every ship other than the pyra which its only fairly effective. The fact that you can functionally take down any enemy balloon in the few seconds it takes to fire 2 shots at 400 meters (heavy clip) is insanely broken.

IMHO its not OP because it breaks the balloon, its OP because the balloon takes so long to rebuild - and then once its rebuilt takes far too long to be fully repaired meaning the pilot can't manoeuvre effectively or use pilot tools such as hydrogen in order to regain altitude advantage. (or get a shatter damage gun in arc long enough to break the carronade) A rescaling of balloon health and damage modifiers and damage reductions to pilot tools I believe would fix this issue. The new mechanic muse added this patch to increase ships speed when balloons are damaged could potentially help ships that are in balloon lock, but in its current form the difference is insignificant. Another issue is the lack of shatter damage guns that have upwards arc that could allow ships at lower altitudes to disable carronades on ships that already have height advantage over them.

TLDR the immediate effect of carronades to gain altitude advantage is still desirable - the problem is it is too easy to maintain the advantage after the first balloon break and too difficult for the enemy pilot to change the situation.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Tanya Phenole on December 02, 2014, 09:34:35 am
I wonder if decreasing rebuild of baloon time will not turn into physics abusal.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Mezhu on December 02, 2014, 10:13:43 am
No geo, stop insisting that 'just rescaling balloon health and dmg-> ez fix'. It is a fix but one that has extreme consequences to many other aspects of the game. Suddenly balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced. Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack (it already can, assuming unbuffed carro). Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments and simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns. If the 'simple' change of changing balloon health and damage values the gameplay shifts dramatically.

OT, I'd change the raw damage numbers so that each unbuffed heavy shot aimed against balloon drains exactly 51% of its' maximum health. Carronade still wins on the long run, as it should. This way though people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop, and after the first pop you have a larger time window during which to seek a chance to escape or retaliate.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: GeoRmr on December 02, 2014, 01:11:36 pm
No geo, stop insisting that 'just rescaling balloon health and dmg-> ez fix'. It is a fix but one that has extreme consequences to many other aspects of the game. Suddenly balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced. Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack (it already can, assuming unbuffed carro). Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments and simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns. If the 'simple' change of changing balloon health and damage values the gameplay shifts dramatically.

OT, I'd change the raw damage numbers so that each unbuffed heavy shot aimed against balloon drains exactly 51% of its' maximum health. Carronade still wins on the long run, as it should. This way though people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop, and after the first pop you have a larger time window during which to seek a chance to escape or retaliate.

"balloon tools are not as punishing to use since dps/rps ratio is greatly reduced."

IMHO balloon tools are currently more punishing to use than they should be (see the many threads people have made about this in the past) So yes, this is a good thing. If this is an issue guess what - this shit can be rebalanced to the same state by maintaining the current damage done by pilot tools, it would require more immediate engineer attention but guess what - that's also a good thing because it encourages pilot engineer communication.


"Likewise, carronade is weaker since the balloon can survive a clip with a well timed mallet wack"

Duh, that's the fkn point.

"(it already can, assuming unbuffed carro)."

Oh, well what the fk was your point then?



"Faster balloon rebuilds negate the need for crew loadout adjustments."

Duh, that's the fkn point.



"..simultaneously change the dynamics of many other guns."

This would not affect any of the other guns because ALL the balloon modifiers for damage types would be scaled proportionately. For example, An artemis shot to the balloon would deal the same % damage as it does currently.



"gameplay shifts dramatically."

Duh, that's the fkn point - More exotic ships are nolonger insta countered by anything with a carronade - We would likely see more mobulas in close range maps like Paritan for example.



"people would have a longer reaction time before the first pop"
This is bad, carronade is a disable weapon - disable should have immediate effect to negate kill oriented load-outs;
my change keeps this immediate effect disable philosophy while only changing the prolonged survivability aspect.


I'm insisting even harder.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on December 02, 2014, 03:40:25 pm
Man, this again?

Stop buffing from increasing gun damage so much. Oh wait, gun changes. Right.

It's fine where it is. (light and heavy)
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: GeoRmr on December 02, 2014, 09:11:47 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention - I'm also actually pretty happy with the state of the carronades and balloon as is.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Spud Nick on December 02, 2014, 10:31:44 pm
They could just reduce the damage it does to armor and hull.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Mezhu on December 03, 2014, 07:55:31 am
So, are you 'insisting even harder' to change the entire game in an attempt to 'balance' a single weapon, or are you happy with how it is?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: GeoRmr on December 03, 2014, 07:58:10 am
If the weapon needs balancing as much as the majority of people here seem to think, then yes. However I do think the issue we have is not with the guns effective performance and ability to destroy balloons, but only with the repercussions that are caused by the state of a destroyed balloon. I do believe that the changes I have suggested will have a far smaller impact on the rest of the game mechanics than you are postulating.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Tanya Phenole on December 03, 2014, 09:08:54 am
Hey how about we just increase the cone of carronade, like a little bit?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on December 03, 2014, 11:12:29 am
Hey how about we just increase the cone of carronade, like a little bit?

Then you risk making heavy a required ammo. Arguably that is still the case at its maximum range, but I think other ammos have merit closer in.

They could just reduce the damage it does to armor and hull.

It doesn't do that much hull damage. The ground does. As for armor, idk. Directly it's not the best vs armor. Indirectly, it works. Balloon down = damage to armor + engies trying to get the balloon up. Personally I think it's fine where it is. Sure, you need to have tactics in mind to beat it, but this is no different from any other enemy.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Tanya Phenole on December 03, 2014, 09:04:58 pm
Well, once you dropped on earth and  not rising from it and not having engines on , ground should stop making damage
So you can lie down and not be damaged continuously. Well, it should be like that. I touch ground and don't suffer from pain all the time, you know?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Kamoba on December 04, 2014, 05:28:10 am
Well, once you dropped on earth and  not rising from it and not having engines on , ground should stop making damage
So you can lie down and not be damaged continuously. Well, it should be like that. I touch ground and don't suffer from pain all the time, you know?

I think it's called landing in lay-mans terms :)

Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on December 04, 2014, 02:42:30 pm
Well, once you dropped on earth and  not rising from it and not having engines on , ground should stop making damage
So you can lie down and not be damaged continuously. Well, it should be like that. I touch ground and don't suffer from pain all the time, you know?

That's a fair point. I think the reason it happens here is that with no balloon, your ship is always moving down. The game likely doesn't account for "ground" vs "canyon wall" for example. Hit a canyon wall, you take some damage based on speed. Since you're balloon is out, youre always falling so you're constantly hitting the ground, thus damage. Would be interesting if you could actually stop and "rest" on the ground. Then it would force the blender to ram the ship instead of just sit there.

Sounds hard, might not be. I'd test that kind of mechanic.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Crafeksterty on December 04, 2014, 03:18:10 pm
Uuuuh, as much as it seems logical, there are ships this would be highly ilogical. I mean just downright shouldnt happen for these ships.
Well, the only ship i see not having this is Spire :P

But then again, hitting the ground and not getting damaged isnt a good fix to the carronade, its a good fix versus lumberjack but carronade not really. Because the enemy ship is allready close range and on the ground, why not ram? So in either case it will die anyway. Its just good against long range baloon popping. Ships from long range eventualy falling to the ground will then be able to come back up. With carronades it wouldnt really matter. Heck i believe keeping them on the ground without killing them would be more inneffective in terms of balance or mechanic abuse.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on December 04, 2014, 03:26:30 pm
Hence why i'd test it and not just proclaim we solved the great carronade debate!

In all seriousness though, it would be rather different. Plus, how often do you really manage to make your ship stay perfectly still? Any movement will translate to damage, just not a fixed rate when you're sitting on the ground. A carronade would ram. LJ is usually accompanied with another gun (not my lumberfish) and even if not, they generally run support over kill. I think this ultimately hits the "gameplay vs realism" barrier though. The tactics sound fun at least.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: GeoRmr on December 04, 2014, 03:28:45 pm
Hence why i'd test it and not just proclaim we solved the great carronade debate!

In all seriousness though, it would be rather different. Plus, how often do you really manage to make your ship stay perfectly still? Any movement will translate to damage, just not a fixed rate when you're sitting on the ground. A carronade would ram. LJ is usually accompanied with another gun (not my lumberfish) and even if not, they generally run support over kill. I think this ultimately hits the "gameplay vs realism" barrier though. The tactics sound fun at least.

I wonder how hard that would be for muse to implement though
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on December 04, 2014, 03:32:57 pm
No idea. Im sure it's a lot harder than my mind makes it out to be. The underlying "problem" (and even here i'm guessing) is that ships with no balloon are always in a "falling" state. Damage is currently scaled on speed (you bump into something and its not so bad. smack a rock at full speed with squid, yea your armor's gone) so it's just how do they make it so the "ground" knows differently?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: HamsterIV on December 04, 2014, 03:40:23 pm
While you can't rest on the ground without taking damage, the damage rate is small enough that you could put up a decent fight before the hull goes. A gat/morter combo or a mine could easily knock out an attacking blender fish in the time it takes resting impact damage to finish off a junker. I have fraught my way out of balloon lock several times by sitting on the ground and camping hull.

The problem many pilots encounter (myself included) is the temptation to press the rise button when you are in that situation.  Every time your balloon is repaired you want to use it to get as far from the ground as possible, but this only serves to increase the ground impact damage when it is ultimately popped again. I have found the best practice when balloon locked is to go down even with a repaired balloon. It takes you out of the blenderfish's vertical arc and allows you control over how you hit the ground. Once on the ground your crew have a limited window to make a kill as the blender fish over descends.

Against exceptional pilots (Zill) this won't always work because they will hit you with a goomba stomp the moment your hull touches ground. Against less seasoned pilots, who like to watch a ship writhe on the ground while they pop the balloon constantly, it is possible to pull a turn arround.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Dementio on December 04, 2014, 04:16:44 pm
I wonder what would happen if the balloon hitbox of ships is tied to how much space the balloon is actually taking up. Instead of hitting empty space where the balloon once was you would have to actually aim at that little piece left.
This would not only make it a little bit harder for Carronade gunners and pilots, but also might make it harder for any other weapon to hit the hull through the balloon. Probably by a very little margin, but still.
This would also make Pyramidions nigh immortal against Carronades that try to hit the balloon with heavy clip.

Would that be a bad world?
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Replaceable on December 04, 2014, 05:21:13 pm
I always aimed for the crumpled balloon anyways aha whoops.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: ShadedExalt on December 04, 2014, 08:57:03 pm
I wonder what would happen if the balloon hitbox of ships is tied to how much space the balloon is actually taking up. Instead of hitting empty space where the balloon once was you would have to actually aim at that little piece left.
This would not only make it a little bit harder for Carronade gunners and pilots, but also might make it harder for any other weapon to hit the hull through the balloon. Probably by a very little margin, but still.
This would also make Pyramidions nigh immortal against Carronades that try to hit the balloon with heavy clip.

Would that be a bad world?
I always aimed for the crumpled balloon anyways aha whoops.

Wait, you're telling me that they DON'T do that?  Screw it, Imma do it anyways.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 04, 2014, 10:15:23 pm
I wonder what would happen if the balloon hitbox of ships is tied to how much space the balloon is actually taking up. Instead of hitting empty space where the balloon once was you would have to actually aim at that little piece left.
This would not only make it a little bit harder for Carronade gunners and pilots, but also might make it harder for any other weapon to hit the hull through the balloon. Probably by a very little margin, but still.
This would also make Pyramidions nigh immortal against Carronades that try to hit the balloon with heavy clip.

Would that be a bad world?

While it would make carros a bit harder, it would really just more maximise the pyramidion advantage since in the goio world, balloons deflate backwards.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Caprontos on December 04, 2014, 10:33:37 pm
I wonder what would happen if the balloon hitbox of ships is tied to how much space the balloon is actually taking up. Instead of hitting empty space where the balloon once was you would have to actually aim at that little piece left.
This would not only make it a little bit harder for Carronade gunners and pilots, but also might make it harder for any other weapon to hit the hull through the balloon. Probably by a very little margin, but still.
This would also make Pyramidions nigh immortal against Carronades that try to hit the balloon with heavy clip.

Would that be a bad world?

While it would make carros a bit harder, it would really just more maximise the pyramidion advantage since in the goio world, balloons deflate backwards.

I never thought about that before... Now I won't able to unthink it..


Anyway I think the hotboxes should at lest be looked at, the galleon - for example - is able to be hit on the top most flag part and count as a balloon hit.. despite there being no balloon... Should be an armor or no hit (I think goldfishes top fins are no hit?).

Not sure if other ships have that issue, but I know it makes you able to stay higher above the galleon when breaking the balloon then you would otherwise need to be..


Also I wouldn't mind seeing them give different balloons different hp as a test (did they ever test it?) but not necessarily different rebuild times... So that some are stronger vs balloon damage and some less so. But I know the devs already said they don't wanna do that.

Over all though I think the carros are pretty fine.. They are op when they are op... but its not a sure win thing and can be beaten by any other ship.. depending on teamwork and captain skills.. etc.. Issue I see is.. If the carros can't put you on the ground at all then they are underpowered, so they have to be able to do that to kill you.. And so all you can do is elongate the process if its currently to easy to do it (ie over powered)..
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: DrTentacles on December 05, 2014, 01:22:29 am
Honestly, if you're going to do anything to affect the balance of Carronades, perhaps a Drogue Chute buff would be the best thing. It seems to be little used tool, and it would be the easiest way to nerf them without dramatically impacting balance.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Tanya Phenole on December 05, 2014, 03:52:36 am
Hey hey heeeey I got an idea
What if everyone gives up that bizarre fashion to put wrench engineer on baloon. Since it started way back when carronades were not so popular.

Also make pyramidion carro-vulnerable too

Boom problem solved
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Mezhu on December 05, 2014, 07:37:35 am
Just for the record I don't believe any ('exotic'?) ship is 'insta countered' by carronade. Carrofishes excel at controlling opponents from afar, but their gun and balloon is as fat as any, and they will succumb to prolonged focus fire unless they get off the enemy's arcs every so often. Likewise, galleon has a fuckton of weaknesses. I get that dying after 3 mins of constant balloon popping is frustrating but there are ways to counterattack and/or escape, and this isn't a 1v1 game anyway.

Carronade is a strong gun, there's no arguing that. From popping your balloon to actually killing you, though, it needs circumstances which require quite some time to happen (get close to obstacles, with at least some armor damage while fish is healthy enough to successfuly ram etc), at least some of which can be more or less mitigated (avoid parking next to obstacles, stay high, use drogue, shoot back, use a small carronade yourself, ask for ally support etc). Balloons in general are a huge damage shield. Quick rebuilds essentially force the carro's damage to not be redirected to your hull. When a pyra's hull breaks you'll see 3 people run to it even in pubs, yet when a goldfish's balloon is popped from a carrofish the common case scenario is to have a poor buffwrench guy try to patch it up by himself.

I'm a terrible pilot so this isn't some attempt of mine to act smart by telling you how bad you are to die to carronade. But I've seen ships get out of seemingly ominous, long-lasting balloon locks and turn the fight around pretty often.

Anyway, a minor decrease in damage could make somewhat easier to fight against.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: HamsterIV on December 05, 2014, 12:25:50 pm
Carrofishes excel at controlling opponents from afar,

I think you missed the point of the Blenderfish (carrofish). Balloon locking works by putting your ship in the opponent's blind spot so the blender ship is not taking any damage. This can only be done at extremely close range where the angle the enemies guns need to elevate is offset by the the distance between them and the top of the balloon. At long range sustained gat fire can take out the carronade or even kill the blender ship.

It is possible to destroy an opponent's balloon from long range but it leaves them room to retaliate. Getting in close is how a pilot can ensure the encounter is completely one sided.
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Mezhu on December 05, 2014, 02:45:39 pm
I give up
Title: Re: Carronades
Post by: Tanya Phenole on December 06, 2014, 01:36:02 am
What if we increase all guns upper arc to 5-8 degrees, so those little jerks with carronade will not stay unpunished ?