Author Topic: Top pilots  (Read 124899 times)

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2014, 10:35:12 am »
I know it's all good fun to stroke each other's egos and all. But I just don't see very impressive piloting in competitive matches. I see the crews performing at much higher levels. However most pilots make just as many stupid mistakes. Like backing into walls... does no one look behind them when they reverse? This one example has cost plenty of competitive matches. (Other people are much better  at expressing their points though.)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 10:49:20 am by Dutch Vanya »

Offline Patched Wizard

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2014, 10:45:49 am »
The whole nature of this topic is based upon the deeply personal nature of our opinions. We could never all agree on an accurate measure of a person's abilities or skill. Neither am I debating the need for a topic like this, I find these discussions amusing at best. However, I am debating Skrimskraw's and Crafeksterty's claims that "competitive is the only place to rank pilots" or "pub doesnt exactly allow skill".

Skrimskaw, you're absolutely entitled to your own opinions on who you regard as the "best pilot". You're also entitled to form that opinion from whatever source you deem as valuable to you. In no way am I trying to take those ideas away from you. But by assuming that because a pilot only plays in public games is somehow inferior to a pilot who plays in competitive games I would say that the only person you're limiting is yourself.

Crafeksterty, there are indeed too many variables to perfectly evaluate a person's "skill". But this idea is not solely for the public scene but it applies for the entire game of 'Guns of Icarus'. It is impossible to fully comprehend the entirety of a person's skill due to the inherent imbalance of the game at its core. The asymmetrical design, maps, spawn locations, variable cloud cover, dust storms, winds, ships, weapon loadouts, gunner ammo types, captain tools, engineer tools, engineers, gunners, pilots, etc, all of these factors introduce "too many" variables to ever accurately measure a person's abilities. Even in the competitive circuit this holds true. And all of this without ever needing to assess the human element that is also wildly open to a barrage of inconsistencies.

Like any debate about who is the best "x" throughout history there are too many variables to ever definitively know.

I will admit that in my own personal opinion I value the abilities needed to operate in the public theatre more than the strategy of the competitive stage simply because I operate more in the public sphere. Going back to what nanoduckling said, "it depends on the skill you are looking for". In a pub game there are just some high level competitive players that I would not want as an ally because I know that they cannot handle the wild inconsistencies of a pub game. But in a competitive game they would be the ones I would want beside me. This idea works in reverse for pub pilots too.

For me personally, the measure of a captain's, pilot's, engineer's, or gunner's abilities is not based on how they can perform in the perfect conditions but instead how they perform in the imbalanced conditions. Can they pull a victory from almost certain defeat? Can they stand under the pressure of unfair odds? In life you will never have a balanced fight or war. There will always be imbalance in favour of one side. For me, what I value is the ability to recognise the imbalance and to use all the resources available to you to overcome those unfair odds.

I watched one game once, where a goldfish with an average level pilot and a mobula with a low level pilot faced off against a pyramidion with a high level pilot and a galleon with an average level pilot. At first the goldfish and mobula were ripped to shreds as the pyramidion and galleon tore through them over and over. The mobula always out of position and the goldfish's crew unable to handle the engineering strains put on them. The match was 0-4 in favour of the pyramidion and galleon but I watched as the pilots on the goldfish and mobula started to close up the weaknesses in their game. They rallied their novice crews, forging them into barely functioning units. They assessed their opponents and themselves and then reengaged on their own terms. I watched this for 40 minutes as they clawed their way back from a 0-4 situation and pulled a 5-4 victory from a battle that should have been finished in 6 minutes. You could never convince me that this wasn't a match of skill or ability simply because it was fought in a public arena.

The defining nature of public games for me is the ability to create victory from nothing.


ps. "If a good pilot crumbles in pub because he has random pub crew, that just means his crew wasnt good enough to support it." Crafeksterty, this is wrong because it is based on the illogical idea that somehow a "good pilot" is immune to error.

ps. "If you think pilots that solely play pubs are comparable in terms of skill with the top competitive ones you're delusional." Mezhu, if someone practiced their skills in public games it may mean that statistically they will be on average not as good as competitive players, but it doesn't mean that such a feat is impossible.

ps. Stop writing so many replies! I can barely keep up with all the comments!

/end

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2014, 11:33:59 am »
I know pubs can be a place of finding talents, most of my team was recruited through random pub games. I am not denying that you can find talented pilots in pub games, but in the end the only way to rank people is through competitive play. My list is basicly a shoutout to good pilots that deserve recognition for what they have achieved.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2014, 12:21:47 pm »
"in the end the only way to rank people is through competitive play" - Skrim, no matter how many times you say this it still wont be true unless you qualify the statement to make it subjective. There is no 'only way' when it comes to subjective preferences. I don't know how else to explain it to you. No one is criticizing your list, folks are just pointing out there are other ways to make lists than yours.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2014, 01:01:46 pm »
I find that and the explenation difficult to grasp. I can understand there can be a hardboil play going on in pubs, but it wont match up to what competetive will offer.

This is my belief:
When a pilot that is extremely good in pub wants to fly competetively for the first time, the odds are against him versus an allready set competetive team.
When this pilot continues competetive he will become better and he will come out stronger in pub play.

Regarding Patched Wizard:
Quote
"If a good pilot crumbles in pub because he has random pub crew, that just means his crew wasnt good enough to support it." Crafeksterty, this is wrong because it is based on the illogical idea that somehow a "good pilot" is immune to error.

Not it at all. You just mentioned the opposite. Im saying that the pilot cant do much if the crew dont do their thing. If a good pilot has bad crew, he cant do his thing. If a good pilot has good crew =/= immune to error, it just means he can now make the ship perform well. If he does errors thats an error by the pilot. But thats a complete different thing. Im talking about how the ship cannot do what the pilot intended the ship to do with crew who cant make that happen. If the pilot is succesfull or not is a story afterwards.

And the other thing was the comparisement of inconsistencies. Not just inconcistencies.

There will be more inconsistencies in pub games than there will be in competetive. Weve all seen random stuff happen in competetive, but there is so much more inconsistencies in pub. So much that its just not worth measuring or properly spectate. There is a better reason to stream competive matches versus Pub matches because what is going on is much more obviously translated and understandable than pub matches where the Variables go beyond just game elements but also heavily on player gameplay discrepencies. Like using a mallet on rebuilding...

Why would i honour myself for killing a ship that has an engie that does that?!

I dont GG on 5-0 because im afraid of the other team leaving. I just wanna play but i seem to beat them down like crazy. Then they leave. What if my crew leaves, oh shit now i have to expect someone worse than the previous crew that cant listen or dont know what a heavy weapon is. Now im at the other end of 5-0.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2014, 01:15:49 pm »
It's too bad that this tiny insignificant competitive scene is the only place where people know how to play the game. I always thought there were some great matches in the community. But what would a casual like me know. Maybe after another 2000 hours i can finally learn how to play the guns of icarus!

Offline Mean Machine

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2014, 02:01:11 pm »
It's too bad that this tiny insignificant competitive scene is the only place where people know how to play the game. I always thought there were some great matches in the community. But what would a casual like me know. Maybe after another 2000 hours i can finally learn how to play the guns of icarus!

Lol, I'm sorry, but at this point you just seem miserable. Are you upset that you weren't mentioned as one of the big boys?
No one said pug players can't perform, they only said competitive matches provide better grounding from where you can better observe and notice someone's skill.
It's good if you have great matches yourself, I unfortunately can't say same for myself. I rarely have good, challenging and balanced match. It's 5:0 80% of the time. Some of those you're on winning side, some on losing and neither is fun.
In any case, I don't know anyone that would do his 100% in pug game, so therefore how do you evaluate such player and how skilled he is?

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2014, 02:22:01 pm »
It's too bad that this tiny insignificant competitive scene is the only place where people know how to play the game. I always thought there were some great matches in the community. But what would a casual like me know. Maybe after another 2000 hours i can finally learn how to play the guns of icarus!

Lol, I'm sorry, but at this point you just seem miserable. Are you upset that you weren't mentioned as one of the big boys?
No one said pug players can't perform, they only said competitive matches provide better grounding from where you can better observe and notice someone's skill.
It's good if you have great matches yourself, I unfortunately can't say same for myself. I rarely have good, challenging and balanced match. It's 5:0 80% of the time. Some of those you're on winning side, some on losing and neither is fun.
In any case, I don't know anyone that would do his 100% in pug game, so therefore how do you evaluate such player and how skilled he is?
I'm pretty sure i would have the same bitter opinion about this game if i had been mentioned. Why would I not do my 100% in pub games though? Am i supposed to half-ass it for thousands of matches? Overall I really just want people to realize how silly the ego stroking is in this game. But you guys are going to keep doing your thing, and hopefully the spirit of the community outside of competition stays alive too. In the end i'm clearly looking for a different experience than you people.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 02:37:04 pm by Dutch Vanya »

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2014, 02:48:06 pm »
I feel it's simply preposterous to say there aren't any really good players outside of competitive, and we all know it. It's hard to get into the scene unless you're A) in a clan or B) know a lot of people.

But one of Patched's previous points about pilots: I, too, have seen great pilots with good crews get trounced in a perfectly balanced match, because they don't have their regular team. I feel a lot of players can't work outside of their own group. I don't know if that's inherently a fault, but it is something that totally happens.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2014, 02:57:40 pm »
Dont know what your point is as you didnt point it out.
Were not talking about playing pub games, were talking about the fair served difficulty coming from pub or competetive that makes a player able to asses and play better.
Does pub have that?
Does competetive have that?

Quote
Why would I not do my 100% in pub games though? Am i supposed to half-ass it for thousands of matches?
You cant 100%. Not all the time. Because from my argument, you will rely on your crew. Which in pub games offer players that dont even want to learn.
Lets not forget the enemies side in all things. Was it that honourable killing a half surrendered team?
And why when perhaps the enemy team doesnt give 100%... or your ally.

And i dont know what the hell you mean by the "ego stroking" that you think is going on. Because like i said, you didnt point it out and you were ironicaly and ended up as a hypocrit
Quote
Maybe after another 2000 hours i can finally learn how to play the guns of icarus!

Cool! 2000 hours! You were here before Day 1! Youre older than me! But doesnt seem wiser


Quote
I feel a lot of players can't work outside of their own group. I don't know if that's inherently a fault, but it is something that totally happens.

That is so true with me. Ive had really good pub crew that managed to keep up with my spire but i really couldnt go beyond X2Gat-hwacha-Mortar.
I cant play around with other builds and practice them, which my clan crew would allow me because they could keep up.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2014, 03:22:24 pm »
1: You can always try 100%, and if everyone did that pub games would be perfect, not the case but it's a nice sentiment anyway.
2: I just use the amount of steam hours i have as a reason for my passionate opinions.
2.5: This threads entire purpose is ego-stroking.
3: Clearly you don't play the game for the exact same social experience as I. That is all.

Patched Wizard is much better at writing down his points coherently. But if you really can't grasp why all this frustrates me, then i'll get started on my essay.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 03:36:39 pm by Dutch Vanya »

Offline AbbyTheRat

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2014, 05:28:17 pm »
Hey, in my opinion the top pilots are, Spud Nick, GoldenGlade and more that my tired and unwell brain is struggling to come up with.

We should leave this thread for those who we think is a good pilot by our standard and celebrate that instead of debating whose method of judging who is the top pilot. Could open a new thread if you guys want to see if you could come up with a method of ranking pilots and leave this thread for praising our top pilot. (in our opinion)

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2014, 06:51:27 pm »
Hey, in my opinion the top pilots are, Spud Nick, GoldenGlade and more that my tired and unwell brain is struggling to come up with.

We should leave this thread for those who we think is a good pilot by our standard and celebrate that instead of debating whose method of judging who is the top pilot. Could open a new thread if you guys want to see if you could come up with a method of ranking pilots and leave this thread for praising our top pilot. (in our opinion)

Thank you for beating me to the punch Abby.  I was about to say the same thing.

Top pilots?  Gotta go with Jub Jub.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2014, 05:43:04 am »
Until one has flown with all the pilots in questions as ally and enemy for a considerable amount of time, no ranking is even slightly correct, as the pilot skill also includes communication between the entire team (crew and allies) and heavily depends on the position of your allies and wether they are doing well or not as well.

When it comes to raw flying skill in 1v1, I say, the top pilots are (in no particular order):
Lueosi, Melon, Queue Fox P., Thomas, LazyPandas, Jub Jub, with Heldigris showing potential.

When it comes to pilot coordination and positioning, dependent on ally, I say, the top pilots are (in no particular order):
Sammy and Frogger
Skrimskraw and Fiasco Total/Crafeksterty
LazyPanads and JubJub

Pilot communication in terms of micro management is also important (and slightly ship/build dependent), but seeing as everybody only has one and the same pilot when they crew or only clan related pilots when it comes to competitive crewing, there is little way of ranking that.


Regarding wether pub matches have anything to do with this subjective ranking, I would say "no". I too have played pub matches to a fair amount and learned a majority of tricks there, but public games felt like they had a limit. When I entered the competitive scene I felt like developing in whole new directions, increasing my own skill level further.
In public matches one can see an individual skill better than in competitive, but that is of no matter since the individual skill does not best the collective skill of an entire ship or team.
In competitive the crews know exactly what their job is, they can execute their job with nigh perfection, leaving the pilot with the ability to concentrate more on the game itself. In pub matches this is not possible, because maybe somebody is not listening, not telling important stuff, forgetting to get into the required position, forgetting what the required position was, and on and on. Random pub crews will (should) perform worse than the pilots own competitive crew in comparision.

Mix that together with the ally and enemy having the same problems or even having pilots with these problems and you get: A Pilot.
A pilot so general to all and everything else that determining a skill difference between multiple pilots is not that easy when they operate on a roughly similar level.
In competitive you can see every little detail and are able to judge upon that. As Vanya said, in competitive, pilots still do an impressive amount of silly mistakes, but because the crew is to be expected to not screw up it is only the pilots fault. In pub matches a damaged turning engine or different gunnery behaviour is a little bit outside the pilots control...


Honorable Mention to Crafeksterty for his continious effort to try and make the Spire work. That Flakspire is particularly awesome.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 05:48:34 am by Dementio »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Top pilots
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2014, 04:42:38 pm »
Dutch, I don't think the thread is entirely here for stroking the ego's of competitive players, I think the problem is the majority of opinions which originate from the people who take part in and appreciate competitive players...

Back on track!

Captains I'd like to give kudo's to, Captain Silverst

Very controlled, very tactical and planned, always able to spot his own mistakes, always striving to better his own choices, while also trying to give hints and tips to his own crew and allies! Oh and he is incredibly aware of his surroundings at all times.

Captain Swiftpaw. I've only played with Swift a few times, but each time has been relaxed and friendly environment in pub matches, definitely one guy I need to fly with more often.