Author Topic: Only 3 rematches remaining...  (Read 8956 times)

Offline Trystan Hart

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2014, 11:59:25 am »
If our system is hindering big group play, that's bad and something that should be fixed.

On that case, could I suggest a small change? When in the crew form, have a checkbox to enable ship-shuffling when the matchmaker places you in a lobby. Rather than it failing to find balanced opponents for your high level 4-ship crew, it could put two of the ships on blue, and fill any empty spots with stragglers from the queue.

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2014, 12:33:12 pm »
Trystan,

That's an awesome idea! Though we already have a system for that if you  create a custom game and after placing your team on either side opening it to queue.
I definitely like you idea though for people who want an easy way to say "I want these ships in the game, put them wherever."

Let me check with the programmers and see how hard to put a button like that in would be.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 12:42:00 pm by Keyvias »

Offline CitizenFry

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2014, 12:57:13 pm »
Would be nice for captains to have a button in crew formation to split their ship off from the rest of the formation. If I'm teamed with a ship I don't especially care to fly with again and we get sent to crew formation, I'd like to be able to easily requeue with just my ship. This would also have the advantage of making it easier for matchmaker to find appropriate matches both for my ship and that other ship, because it's working with smaller units.

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2014, 02:21:31 pm »
The positive effect on balance and speed would be more important than the reduction of flexibility.

I would rather wait a couple more minutes for the matchmaker to fill the empty spots in a lobby that I've been enjoying than be torn away from players I'm having fun with.

Numbers DO NOT adequately reflect QUALITATIVE player experience.  Being shuffled around to new lobbies is not fun.  Being forced away from a fun match is not fun.  Being stuck in crew formation watching a spinning circle is not as fun as chilling in a lobby with ships of my friends to talk to.

Qualitative player experience seems to be lower on your priority list than your quantitative statistics on MMR and balance.  Not a fan.

Maybe you could have it base rematches remaining on how many people leave afterwards.  If nearly everyone is sticking around, don't make them leave; if enough people are leaving that it's burdensome for the matchmaker to fill it, have it go to crew formation.  I don't know.  Something, ANYTHING, to make it so that if WE ACTUALLY HAVE A GREAT LOBBY that we don't have to have it taken away because sometimes unbalanced lobbies get rematched.

"sometimes unbalanced lobbies vote for rematch" and "sometimes a bunch of people leave a lobby" isn't a justification for "you can actually literally never keep a lobby going even if it's enjoyable for most people involved"


Maybe we could have an option at the end of the match where you could vote "rematch", "return to crew formation", or "I individually want to leave and find a new lobby" so that the matchmaker could know in advance how many people are leaving and how to treat the lobby?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 02:23:20 pm by sparklerfish »

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2014, 02:39:37 pm »
On that case, could I suggest a small change? When in the crew form, have a checkbox to enable ship-shuffling when the matchmaker places you in a lobby. Rather than it failing to find balanced opponents for your high level 4-ship crew, it could put two of the ships on blue, and fill any empty spots with stragglers from the queue.
Though we already have a system for that if you  create a custom game and after placing your team on either side opening it to queue.

This isn't a bad idea. Keyvias, I often do what you suggest here but in knowing that we are trying to get match making to work, my friends and I often try to stay in the match making system rather than start another lobby, so I think this idea would be beneficial.

Would be nice for captains to have a button in crew formation to split their ship off from the rest of the formation.

I like this idea, too. ;)

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2014, 02:55:10 pm »
@sparklerfish,

The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.
Before the hotfix initial matches were some of the weakest games in the system. This is because players were always taken to half filled lobbies that never ended. So the queue rarely had enough people in there to make great games.


@ Ship shuffle for crew form
Jerry said it'd be a little bit of work for ship shuffling crew form, but it's possible.  So it's definitely on the list of things we're going to investigate and try to do well.

@Ship split off abilities
Would it be better to have the ability to take a ship out of a crew form or would it be better to have return to crew form only take single ships back, but give them an easy button to invite an entire other friend's ships.
I can see strengths in both systems, but I'm leaning towards crew form returns single ships, but give a lot more tools for getting friends in quick.
What do you guys think?

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2014, 02:59:56 pm »
@sparklerfish,

The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.
Before the hotfix initial matches were some of the weakest games in the system. This is because players were always taken to half filled lobbies that never ended. So the queue rarely had enough people in there to make great games.

I vehemently disagree with this, actually.  The best lobbies I've been in have been the ones in which players have exercised the most control -- starting a custom lobby, forming crews, inviting friends, and so on.  If you're in a high-level lobby with only one rematch remaining, some slots open up, and you invite some friends, they only get to play one match.  How is that helpful?  How does that improve the main purpose of the game -- FUN?

Initial matches suck more often because we haven't had time to sort them out ourselves yet.  Usually by the third rematch, players who aren't having as much fun have left, and are replaced by people who are better suited to the skill level of the lobby, but then the game is like "NOPE SORRY YOU GOT THIS SET UP AND NICE, YOU'RE DONE NOW!" and it's incredibly frustrating.  :/

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2014, 03:15:38 pm »
 Keyvias, I actually had a thought to throw out there. In the last hotfix when you guys created it so novice levels 1-7 would be put in novice matches first, this actually did seem to help with balancing some. (Still needs work). So I'm wondering 2 things: 1) Would increasing the novice level to say 10 help this even more and 2) IF we get the match making system working to the way Muse and the players expected it to work...would it be possible in the future for the forced 3 re-match system to be a filter that can be turned on and off based on the lobby, sort of like the swap function used to be, were people could select forced 3 re-matched lobbies or not?

Would it be better to have the ability to take a ship out of a crew form or would it be better to have return to crew form only take single ships back, but give them an easy button to invite an entire other friend's ships.
I can see strengths in both systems, but I'm leaning towards crew form returns single ships, but give a lot more tools for getting friends in quick.
What do you guys think?

To answer this question... This actually is a hard decision. At first I thought the first option would be better because the system already sends us back to crew formation so in my mind the least work would be to add the ability here for 1 ship to leave crew form. BUT in thinking about it...if I understand the second option: every ship individually would get sent back to a crew form and there would be a bottom/option to easily invite friends ships (EASY is the key word here)...I might actually like this option slightly more since forced swap lobbies are still a thing and it's quite possible that you might not be on the same side as your friends when you go back to queue.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 03:45:50 pm by KitKatKitty »

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 03:23:55 pm »
@rematch

So the biggest issue is matches that never end. That means these lobbies are always taking players from queue and they're never putting anyone back. In many situations it's just not sustainable to let every lobby rematch constantly and will lead to bad initial matches and often bad rematches as entire ships leave.

Pure custom games will always have unlimited matches. So if you go through the effort and get in friends and build your own match, you'll never have to worry about the cap.

@Sparkler
After that match finishes you can requeue and have another 4 games.  So it's an average of 30 seconds of wait for roughly an hour and a half of play time. By waiting that half minute you it improves not just your initial games (especially when you don't have friends on call) but also rematched games as there are more people in the queue to be put into your rematched lobby and keep it balanced.

@ lv 7 vs lv 10
What it comes down to is are level 7 players ineffective teamates, the reason we blocked novice from regular game is A) they hurt balance, but B) and more importantly having to teach every game hurts fun.  So if level 7s force crews and captains to take time to teach them boring stuff every round we can definitely check it out.
As far as for making balance better or worse our average game is pretty much as close to 50/50 as we can get right now.  There will always be edge cases, but overall we're looking really good on balanced matches.


Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2014, 03:30:10 pm »
@Sparkler
After that match finishes you can requeue and have another 4 games.  So it's an average of 30 seconds of wait for roughly an hour and a half of play time. By waiting that half minute you it improves not just your initial games (especially when you don't have friends on call) but also rematched games as there are more people in the queue to be put into your rematched lobby and keep it balanced.

30 seconds for an individual player, maybe.  If you're in a 4v4 and get dumped into crewform, you'll sit there for 20 minutes.  It's awful and it's faster to just make a custom lobby and open it to the queue (zomg!  a half full lobby!  oh noes!  oh wait... we could have accomplished the same thing by just not being forced to leave the one we were already in)

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2014, 04:08:06 pm »
@ lv 7 vs lv 10
What it comes down to is are level 7 players ineffective teamates, the reason we blocked novice from regular game is A) they hurt balance, but B) and more importantly having to teach every game hurts fun.  So if level 7s force crews and captains to take time to teach them boring stuff every round we can definitely check it out.
As far as for making balance better or worse our average game is pretty much as close to 50/50 as we can get right now.  There will always be edge cases, but overall we're looking really good on balanced matches.

**I had edited my previous post with the answer to your question about crew formation but realized that you have posted since then but you can see my thoughts there**

Also I would like to thank you for all the time you take in these forums to get players opinions so the best possible solution is found. People like you is who makes MUSE what they are and why I am so in love with this game and the community.

Like I mentioned the balance is better with the 1-7 levels for novice but I have personally not seen that it's close to 50/50. I also think that level 7 isn't high enough to be thrown in with 25+ level players. I'm a level 7 pilot (even though I'm a level 45 engi) and would never ever imagine flying against anyone greater than a level 10-13 pilot right now because I just do not have the skills to fly against pilots higher than that. I also would feel guilty if my co-pilot was a level 35...I know I would be the weak link and the reason we lost and I know the higher level captains on the other team wouldn't have fun either as they stomped me. I think I only have maybe 15 games as pilot and at a level 7...I would still consider me a Novice pilot for at least double that amount.

Mighty I add I've had some of the best pilots teaching me... I could never imagine if i was actually a new player without their help learning things that I have,
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 04:12:48 pm by KitKatKitty »

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2014, 04:12:27 pm »
How possible is it to change the rematch system to something more like...

Well first I assume currently its simple majority.. if 51+% of the people in a lobby want the rematch the game rematches right? maybe..

If that's the case.. what if for every rematch after the third the % of votes needed goes up so.. If a lobby is really good it will last longer by virtue that people are voting for it to rematch.. but it will still eventually end.. Even if its simply just 10% per rematch.. that would be up to 7 rematches.. Before you need everyone to vote yes to keep it going.. 50% for match 1 and rematch 2-3.. 60% for rematch 4.. 70% for rematch 5.. 80% for rematch 6.. 90% for rematch 7..and 100% for every rematch after 8..

Lobbies will probably still end after 3 in general.. or not much beyond.. If the mass leaves I see after many matches and rematches is an indicator of how many voted..



Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2014, 05:41:26 pm »
@sparklerfish,

The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.


I lol'd, and then cried a little when I read this - I thought we made it pretty clear that the good games are the ones we manually organise, and that its a most rare occasion for the matchmaker to spit you into something enjoyable.

thank you.  much truth.

the only reason I've been able to find balanced and fun lobbies is by actively avoiding using matchmaking.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2014, 06:15:31 pm »
the only reason I've been able to find balanced and fun lobbies is by actively avoiding using matchmaking.

So much this.

I've stated my point many times before


Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2014, 06:24:09 pm »
One good thing about the 3 rematches is that it gives me time to think about sleeping instead of playing Guns all night.